Is everyone comfortable with moderates telling people not to vote their conscience?

[ripcord]

I guess I'm just not comfortable with someone telling people it doesn't matter who you support and who your conscience tells you would do the best job, we will tell you who you should vote for.

[Fresh_Start]

8. there is not a 'voters', there are many groups of voters

and clearly they disagree.

[SDANation]

13. 3 states, means the entire US... gotcha

[Happy Hoosier]

15. He hasn't won a majority of the votes so far...

So I’d argue the voters want someone else. They just can’t agree on whom.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

59. *Some* voters want Bernie. Others do not. This voter does not.

The primaries aren't over, so don't count your chickens yet.

[Blue_true]

71. Voters wanted Hillary and made that clear. But we still heard people saying they would

vote their conscience. I really believe that moderate voters are a lot smarter, if they believe in democratic principles, they will suck it up and vote for the nominee and not talk nonsense such as voting their conscience.

[Squinch]

2. Do post a link to where "the moderates" told you that.

[5X]

19. ...

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100213010396#post2

[Squinch]

30. You seem to see someone telling someone how to vote in that. Can you please point to where?

[empedocles]

3. Some people need to vote their feelings with reckless irregard for the future of the USA.

[Sympthsical]

69. Irregard isn't a word.

Sorry, pet peeve. It’s regard or regardless. Irregard isn’t a thing.

To your point. If you think Bernie will end this country, you’ve never studied our history. He’ll be fine. Your freaking out is the problem. Not the candidate.

[Dream Girl]

4. I think it's about being pragmatic. Do you want Trump re-elected?

Maybe you do, I can’t tell.

[OhZone]

10. This!

[OliverQ]

12. Nope.

But the fact that you think Bernie is guaranteed to lose, but Biden is likely to win shows your bias. Bernie is beating Trump in all recent polls. He's polling higher than Biden in Wisconsin, Michigan, and PA.

[Dream Girl]

16. With a little help from his friends. We are being played.

[SDANation]

17. No he's not.

[OliverQ]

26. Yes, he is.

https://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/02/23/bernie-sanders-michigan-primary-poll/4841992002/

Meanwhile, the poll also had all of the Democratic candidates tested — which did not include Bloomberg — leading Trump in Michigan in a head-to-head race. Here's how each did, according to the poll:

Sanders 48%, Trump 41%
Biden 47%, Trump 43%
Buttigieg 47%, Trump 41%
Warren 46%, Trump 43%
Sen. Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota 44%, Trump 41%

While Democrats appeared to have an advantage over Trump in Michigan, however, it was much less so in the other states: In Pennsylvania, Sanders led Trump 47%-45% and Biden led Trump 46%-45%, well within the margin of error. The rest were tied.

In Wisconsin, the poll found all the Democrats tested leading Trump, but no one had more than a 2 percentage point lead, which was true of Biden, Buttigieg, Sanders and Warren.

[Fresh_Start]

5. I think people should vote with their brains...

not their heart and not their conscience.

It should be an informed decision, not an emotional decision.
But I understand that is a rarity.

[MH1]

7. +1000

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

6. Your conscience is not as important as the future of this country.

People voted for Nader and Stein because their pure snowflake consciences told them to, results be damned. How will your conscience feel if Trump is re-elected?

[OliverQ]

14. Why do you not apply that to your own choice of candidate?

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

18. I have done exactly that.

My conscience says maybe Warren but my brain says Biden. I'm voting with my brain because I want a Democrat to win the election and I'm not confident Warren can do it.

[OliverQ]

35. But why do you assume Biden can?

He's polling worse than Sanders now and hasn't won any primary states in his 3 attempts at President.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

40. Let's see how it looks after Super Tuesday.

I'll vote for whoever can beat Trump but AFAIC the jury is still out on that issue.

[fallout87]

42. Because the establishment

And media have convinced them Biden can win and Bernie cannot.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

56. Please define "the establishment," because I think if I see that meaningless word one more time

I will puke all over my keyboard. Please explain how someone who has never held a job in his adult life outside mainstream politics isn't just as much a part of the so-called establishment as any of the other candidates. And while you're at it, please explain what's wrong with "establishment" people like Nancy Pelosi, Adam Schiff, John Lewis and Barack Obama, not to mention the "establishment" that has allowed Bernie to run for president and the first place and whose support he will need if he is nominated or elected.

[fallout87]

75. Wait...

They "allowed Bernie to run "

You just described the establishment in the latter half of your post.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

78. Why shouldn't the DNC have some say with respect to who represents it?

And yes, they are part of the "establishment," which also includes the members of Congress who managed to get Fat Nixon impeached. And maybe it also includes the rank and file Democrats who've supported the party and volunteered and worked for candidates for years and years. People like me. I don't appreciate being called an enemy who needs to be defeated.

[Voltaire2]

44. Biden has amply demonstrated that he is shitty at this campaigning thing.

And when Bloomberg showed up, at least half of Biden's supporters here deserted him and his alleged electability in a heartbeat. And then when Mike self destructed when Warren gave him a mean look at the debate, these same people rotated back to Biden without even blinking. So I don't think the people claiming this or that centrist is the only one who can beat Trump are being honest about their motives. What they want is a centrist candidate, one of the arguments they use is 'electability' but it is a bullshit argument used to simply to promote their ideological objectives.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

53. You are arguing a different point. Mine was that I prefer to vote with my brain

than with my delicate little snowflake conscience which cares only that I feel righteous about my choice. My brain has evidently reached a different conclusion than yours but it doesn't mean I'm wrong or that I haven't carefully and as objectively as possible considered my options. I could be wrong, but so could you.

[PassingFair]

80. It's all your brain, you know.

Your “heart” doesn’t really think.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

81. That's true; of course "heart" is just a metaphor for emotions.

The reality is that people often make decisions emotionally even when they think they are being objective and rational. Cultish devotion to a political figure (Trump, et al.) is almost entirely emotional. For most people, their choice will have some emotional component whether they recognize it or not. But making the calculation as to whether you think a particular candidate can win an election is a measured attempt to figure out how other people are likely to vote (which includes other people who are making decisions based on emotion). It might be a futile effort but it's at least an honest effort to be rational.

[The Mouth]

9. I'm uncomfortable

no, actually angered, even disgusted, by supposed Democrats saying "S/He's not electable', be it because the person is female, gay, black, or socialist.

I can't, and won't, tell people to STFU when they blather and pontificate about 'electability' instead of issues, but I sure as hell wish they would.

[ripcord]

21. I've gone back to college full time at the age of 57

I have seen on our campus and others the excitement these young people are experiencing over Bernie's run and I honestly don't see anything good coming out of grinding that into the ground by telling them if you go ahead and vote for Bernie our sun will supernova and take the entire universe with it.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

27. Are they going to vote, though?

Historically that's been the most unreliable voting bloc - their turnout tends to be about half that of the 50+ cohort. If they're that excited, please remind them that their excitement should not be limited to posting on Instagram and Twitter.

[Squinch]

34. They never have in the past. But why let that stop us from believing!!!1!

[ripcord]

43. I saw a group of Hispanic students showing support for Bernie on Friday

The were holding up Sanders campaign signs and chanting "si se pueda" if you had been standing there you probably would have been chanting "no no pudes".

[Squinch]

48. Well, that clinches it.

[The Mouth]

32. What do you think their reaction would be

if Bernie goes into the convention leading in delegates but doesn't get the nomination?

[ripcord]

46. They are only the future of our party

Their opinions don't matter and as shown in this thread are simply dismissed.

[The Mouth]

62. That's my perception.

I've got a year on you, but it's amazing how many people our age disparage and dismiss folks of college age.

The "they won't vote" trope. No, they WON'T vote for the same old third-Way, Republican Lite horseshit, Trump or no Trump.

[Tien1985]

77. You know what's sad to me?

When I was in college, I had an interest but I wasn't even sure I could vote because of where I was living. You know what got me over that hump? My college advisor (a Democrat) scooped me out of the quad, explained to me how to register (Maine has same day registration) and brought me to the polls. And a bunch of other young people. Thanks to him, I was able to vote in every election I was eligible for since I turned 18. You know what he didn't do? Whine at us for not knowing what to do or get condenseding and obnoxious for sometimes not agreeing with his views. I am very fortunate that he was my introduction to voting.

I help people vote now. I make sure that I project the same exuberance he did for teaching someone something new and great. I don't behave as if the circumstances that put them in a position not to have voted before make them ignorant, lazy, or selfish. We can do better and we should.

[CentralMass]

49. What would the supporters of any other candidate that it happened to think ?

Clearly you would think that he or she got screwed.

[SDANation]

11. 🤣🤣

Hello 4 more years of president Trump, destroying the institutions of America, killing the impartiality of the courts and complete erosion of rights for the marginalized... all because you had to vote your conscience. “My conscience is more important than your rights!”

[J_William_Ryan]

20. No one can in good conscience

vote for someone who will lose to Trump this November.

[ripcord]

24. So you are guaranteeing a victory if Biden is the candidate?

[Demsrule86]

38. At least we have a shot...there none with a Sander's nomination.

[ripcord]

52. So you have no idea if Biden can beat Trump

But you know for sure Sanders can't, interesting how spotty your foresight is.

[Qutzupalotl]

61. Putin says Sanders is most likely to lose.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1287&pid=556109

The fact that they couldn’t find dirt on Biden and had to resort to making stuff up says a lot too.

[ripcord]

67. So now you take campaign advice from Putin?

[Qutzupalotl]

68. He's been right before.

He knows our electorate better than we seem to.

Russia is proud of their pro-Kremlin figures in the U.S., and they brag about it.


Just like in Helsinki, Putin freely admits he helped Trump win. Of course he wants to do it again.

[wisteria]

33. 1000+

[Garrett78]

22. Which moderates?

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-moderate-middle-is-a-myth/

[gulliver]

23. Why do some interpret being told they should vote their conscience as being told not to?

If I were voting for someone who agreed with everything I believe, I could just write in a vote for myself. I choose not to, because that would be wasting my vote and taking it away from someone who might win and do most of what I think should be done. In not voting for the person I agree with most, myself, I am voting from conscience.

[MH1]

25. I don't know how anyone with a REAL 'conscience' withheld support / vote from Hillary

in 2016.

But I saw enough clueless dipshits tell me that their 'conscience' kept them from voting for Hillary and kept them trashing her after she won the nomination.

So, in the primary we all may have different opinions who is the best to support from a 'conscience' standpoint.

But don't fucking tell me in the GENERAL ELECTION that your 'conscience' tells you to withhold your support for the Democratic nominee. Even our worst candidate is better than letting Trump get another term.

I always take that 'conscience' claim with an ocean's worth of salt. Because from where I sit, someone who resorts to that instead of rational arguments, is signalling they may potentially feel 'justified' in not supporting our nominee if it isn't their own perfect choice. Fuck that.

As for moderates "telling people who to vote for" - your vote is private (okay not so much in caucuses, I guess). Either way, woman up or man up, as the case may be, and take a fucking stand. People have a right to tell you anything. You have the right to make the choice whether to do that or do what you feel is the right thing. It's totally on you, not them.

[lapucelle]

51. You're probably right about that.

[lapucelle]

54. That's harsh, but probably true.

[Voltaire2]

28. it is the same story every four years

The other wing of the party is stuck on "must run centrist candidates". When the left wing loses in the primaries we are told to suck it up and vote blue no matter who, and that is what we do. When the left wing looks like it might win, they freak out, denounce our candidates, threaten to withhold support, and blame the voters for being so utterly stupid as to vote for a candidate who is proposing real substantive reforms.

[wisteria]

29. No one is telling anyone anything.

It appears to be Sanders who has the problem with the establishment and moderates.

[Demsrule86]

31. The ideas behind your post is why we are losing the entire government...no don't vote your

conscience whatever the hell that means. Vote for candidate who can win or the GOP will have it all...I predict a 35 state loss if Sanders is the nominee which I sincerely hope does not happen...but now we have operation chaos in full swing how can we even tell if he is winning? I vote Bloomberg if it comes to that.

[PubliusEnigma]

36. You need to use your common sense along with your conscience. We have to really win.

Not just make ourselves feel good because we voted for our ideals.

[Happy Hoosier]

37. In the face of Trump, "voting your conscience" is privileged indulgence. NT

[Squinch]

50. Wow. Well put. This.

[lapucelle]

39. Well there are some people who seem to think it doesn't matter how we vote.

[cwydro]

41. I will vote my heart and head in the primary.

In the GE, I’m voting blue.

I can only hope we have a true blue candidate.

[Moderateguy]

45. Did the republicans vote their conscience in 2016 for Trump?

No. Why? Because they know that without winning elections nothing is possible. You can decide if you want to win or be true to your conscience

[ripcord]

57. So your solution is to be more like the republicans

interesting.

[Turin_C3PO]

47. I'm not quite sure what you're saying.

All I know is that everyone opposed to Trump must vote for the Dem nominee, whoever it is. This is no time to fuck around.

[jmg257]

55. I'm fine with it...I am strong enough to do my own thing, and ignore people who want to tell

me otherwise if need be.

[melman]

58. I really don't care

Because I know there's no conflict with what my conscience says and the candidate that will win. They are one and the same.

[Faux pas]

60. As I said on another thread...

To me moderate/centrist means nothing changes. No forward movement, no new ideas. Same old same old. I don't believe that's a good thing.

[Laelth]

63. They mean well.

They fear the damage that they believe a Sanders nomination will do to the party and the country.

I am comfortable with it. They still can't control the actual votes. We shall see what we see.

-Laelth

[msongs]

64. bernie's been bad mouthing me for 50 yrs but that's not why I dont like him nt

[Iggo]

65. LOL ... "Moderates"

[NRaleighLiberal]

66. I'm just uncomfortable with moderates, period.

[booley]

70. Quite a few moderates went for Bernie in Nevada

So we shouldn't even assume the people telling us to ignore our conscience are moderates.

[Vivienne235729]

72. We don't have the luxury of voting for our feelings. We need to vote for who can dethrone the orange

[LakeArenal]

73. Think for yourself.

Listen to what everyone has to say, then think.

My opinion:Your heart is totally irrelevant in the voting booth beyond pumping your blood to get in it.

[D23MIURG23]

74. I don't get the argument that a candidate who loses the primaries should be tapped for the general.

I didn't get it in 2016 when Bernie's fans were making it, and I don't get it now that it is coming from Buttigieg/Biden/Klobuchar supporters. It's true that Bernie's ideological bent is different and possibly controversial, but he's still the candidate doing the best job of pulling together a coalition. Bernie is winning dispite having to compete in the same ideological lane as Warren. Maybe instead of trying to knife him in the back, the moderate/establishment supporters should be writing their candidates and asking them to do something to distinguish themselves from everyone else running in that lane.

[Tien1985]

76. It's always been the rule here.

I'm not saying for right or for wrong.

It's not entirely honest to say anyone is telling us who we HAVE to vote for. The people who own this site make the rules for who participates here. One of there rules is that you must vote for the eventual nominee (or I suppose you could choose not to say who you voted for or you could blatantly lie, it's not like DU follows anyone into the voting booth).

It's not like losing access to DU leaves anyone without their basic needs. None of us users have to like the rule or see value in it, but we don't get to make the rules here.

[CalFione]

79. Because your "conscience" is going to get us all killed

[LexVegas]

82. Conscience is why I won't vote for the pro-gun candidate in the primary. nt