Can we have an honest conversation about Bernie?

[NanceGreggs]

There are facts that simply can’t be ignored.

Bernie is an extremely divisive figure in our party. Many Democrats resent his use of our party when it’s convenient for him, rather than being committed to the party full stop. And saying “but he votes with/caucuses with the Dems most of the time” doesn’t make him a Democrat, no matter how many times it's said.

Even when Bernie runs on the Democratic ticket, he attacks the party. That doesn’t exactly endear him to committed party members – especially in today’s political environment, when being a united party is key. By stating that “the Democratic establishment AND the Republican establishment can’t stop him”, he is being extremely divisive by putting himself out as someone who is actually running against BOTH parties, and not as someone who is running FOR the party that he is supposedly running on behalf of.

The constant cries about how being a “Democratic socialist” doesn’t mean he IS a communist-type socialist is a moot point. Unless you plan to go door-to-door and explain the difference to all of the voters who equate ‘socialism’ with USSR communism, you are not going to change their minds. They hear “socialist’, and they attach their own (albeit ill-informed) meaning to the term – and it’s NOT the style of government they will vote for.

I’ve seen this repeatedly on the sites I participate in where both Dems and Repubs post: “I don’t want Trump to be re-elected – but I’ll be damned if I’ll vote for a communist.” You can shout all you want about how these people don’t understand what socialism is, or how what Bernie is proposing isn’t socialism as they perceive it. But people vote according to what they believe, and not according to what you think they should believe.

It is also a fact that many Bernie supporters tend to be vitriolic towards those who disagree with them. We saw it in 2016, and we’re seeing it again now. You can blame it on Russian bots, or people pretending to be Bernie supporters all you want – but the fact remains that the vitriol is there, and it is as divisive as it is appalling.

Here on DU, we have been told repeatedly that those who aren’t in lockstep behind Bernie are “Bernie haters”. What is notable about that meme is that we don’t see any OPs here about Amy haters, Biden haters, Buttigieg haters, or Warren haters. The fact that Bernie supporters alone push the idea that not supporting Bernie is a result of some unfounded ‘hatred’ – rather than a well thought-out preference for someone else – speaks for itself.

I have many “problems” with Bernie – and I have often stated them. But my biggest problem is the fact that so many Bernie supporters are simply ignoring the facts. Bernie is divisive at a time when we need to be united – and that doesn’t bode well for beating Trump in November. If Bernie can’t unite Democrats, he won’t be uniting the country any time soon.

We know that most Democrats will vote for Bernie over Trump. But we need more than that. We need to persuade those who are disgruntled with Trump to see us as a viable alternative. We need a candidate who offers viable solutions to the nation’s problems – NOT a candidate who is causing division among our own party members, while making pie-in-the-sky campaign promises that have zero chance of ever coming to fruition.

We know that Trump, the Russians, and the GOP are dying to see Bernie as the Dem nominee. That’s not because – as many Bernie supporters keep saying – “they’re afraid of Bernie”. No, they’re not. They are promoting Bernie because they already know that defeating him will be an easy task. They started collecting the oppo-research in 2016 when it seemed possible he would be the Dem candidate – and they have now redoubled their effiorts to collect even more.

I am only writing this to say that there are legitimate reasons for many of us not wanting Bernie to be the nominee – and insisting that “Bernie hatred” is the root of the problem is not only insulting and condescending, it is self-defeating.

If you want to see Bernie as our 2020 candidate, that’s fine. But ignoring the facts about his chances is political suicide. Saying things like “everyone will eventually come around to supporting Bernie” is a pipe dream. Insisting that moderate Republicans will somehow come around to realizing that Bernie’s idea of socialism is not what they perceive it as is ludicrous.

In summary, my biggest problem with Bernie supporters is not that they lack a way to educate the populace about the facts – but instead keep insisting that the facts simply don’t exist.

[CincyDem]

1. Awesome summary and perspective. Thanks. n/t

[Rilgin]

46. Can sum this up. You hate Bernie and everyone should vote for the candidate you prefer

I could repeat every line of your post from the other side. People who support Bernie and Warren are concerned that centrist candidates will lose the election and more importantly will fail to improve life in America. The only thing that most people on this site don't do is post constant hatred on the other candidates although such posts are not non-existent. They are just not as many or as constant from the same players who echo every negative mention of Bernie.

There is a division in the democratic party but you ignore that it is both ways. This may be the year that the centrists hold their nose and vote for a Democratic Party Candidate that they think will lose an election like some of us have done in past election cycles.

[Bluepinky]

104. Yes! Many of us would have preferred to vote for more progressive candidates in the past.

Some of the best champions of the progressive wing of the Democratic Party are gone, and they’re sorely missed: Ted Kennedy, Paul Wellstone, Al Franken. But we still have Bernie, and he’s still fighting the good fight.

[MFM008]

133. Your ignoring the facts

And just yelling Bernie Bernie Bernie at them.
Now watch how many scary commercials
the Republicans throw out about communism.
All it took was Dukakis in a tank.
All it took was Kerry in a suit that made him
Look like a teletubbie in baby blue.

[calimary]

209. That's exactly what I worry about.

Too many people are spooked by the term socialist. And one can argue all day about the fine points of socialism being beneficial to wide swaths of America that thrive with socialist programs (Medicare! Social Security!) but the sad fact is that people are spooked by the “socialism” label.

So we will have an uphill battle, particularly against a so-called pResident who is a master at salesmanship, sloganeering, and schtick. And he’ll start pounding on the “ists” - socialist/Communist/fascist/you-name-it-ist. And the low-information voter who only resonates with the circus razzmatazz from the Ringmaster-in-Chief with all his baloney-slinging and shiny-object distraction tricks is already preconditioned to fall for it all.

[Gobbierella]

242. Sooner ot later we need to have this discussion

We're finally in a place where many young people are on board with the agenda of Bernie regardless of what we call it. I think many older people would be on board with that agenda if it was called something else. You're right that it's about marketing and sooner or later we're going to have to explain the agenda isn't scary and maybe call it something else but if we have to have this discussion why not have it now?

[blm]

284. Franken leaned moderate.

[Bluepinky]

285. He was pretty progressive.

[blm]

286. Yes, he is progressive and leans moderate.

Many Dems are progressive and have moderate leanings. Many moderate Dems have progressive leanings.

[Rene]

171. Bernie is very uninspiring and ineffective

[Boomer]

184. Biden is very uninspiring and ineffective

There. You've stated your subjective opinion and I've stated mine.

I'm willing to vote for Sanders if he's the candidate, just as I'm willing to vote for Biden if he wins. I'm not a sore loser.

[McKim]

188. Biden Brings War Baggage

For me, having lost a family member in Vietnam, I remember distinctly how Biden advocated for the War on Iraq and then voted for it. This is a non starter for me. We can’t have more of these wars, period. About a million Iraqis died in the war, according to The Lancet. This is rather a serious error on Biden’s part. I would have real trouble holding my nose for that one. However I would vote blue no matter who, but please, no more wars!

[Cha]

295. Biden is definitely Inspiring with excellent experience and

qualifications to be POTUS.

[Boomer]

297. Your subjective opinion, not mine

I'm glad you find him inspiring, that's always a good thing. And if he can get the nomination, I'll vote for him, even if I don't find him inspiring.

But if Biden was as inspiring as you seem to think he is, I would expect him to do better. To me, he feels like he's phone it in, like Jeb Bush in 2016. Running because everyone else tells him it's the thing to do, but not really all that into himself. I wish Biden had run in 2016 -- I think that was his time, and now is not.

[rzemanfl]

185. What was the name of Clinton's cat?

[calimary]

220. Socks.

[Farmer-Rick]

195. Yeah, you are right.

I clicked on this post hoping for an honest conversation but was sorely disappointed. It's nothing but a I hate Bernie rant with a little less emotional language.

Next up, throw the Communism fake label at Bernie. Let's face it we all know Russian Communism is Not socialism. But the I hate Bernie groups (I suspect they are promoted by Russian Trolls and filthy rich who may have to pay taxes) will pretend we believe that right wing talking point.

[luvtheGWN]

213. The American public, since the Cold War days, have been convinced

that any talk of socialism equates with Russian communism. I'm sorry to say that Nance is absolutely correct when she says folks aren't going to pay any attention to anyone at the door who tries to explain what democratic socialism is -- they believe what they want to believe, and it's been hammered into their heads that "socialism" or any description that includes that word, is BAD.

As a Canadian, I truly, truly wish that my American pals could all enjoy the freedom that comes with universal healthcare. I've heard too many personal stories of people suffering AFTER they've received life-saving treatments with worries of whether their usurious insurance companies will pay at least a percentage of their massive hospital bills. I've sent money to some of them to help in some small way.

Having said that, I know with unfailing certainty that Sanders as the nominee will be destroyed by the GOP and its monster leader, with ads, speeches and everything else. They will turn everything anyone thinks is GOOD and FAIR and MONEY-Saving about UHC into death panels, loss of freedom and communism. They will dig up (or make up) any dirt they can use to convince the voting public that Sanders is THE WORST thing that could ever happen to the US.

Sure, they'll do that with every other candidate, but with Sanders they have a very effective cudgel to use.

Think about what another 4 years of the Monster will do to your beloved country. He's destroying the American ideal bit by bit. It's not the same as it once was, and I truly fear you will be under the hammer of a dictator.

[maddiemom]

221. Well said.

[llashram]

225. Democratic socialism

is dressed up Eugene V. Debs socialism, based on the writings of Karl Marx. That's a fact.

[Stainless]

233. Eugene V. Debs is a hero to many informed/intelligent people.

He went to prison for his socialism/beliefs. Fuck your smarmy "facts".

[llashram]

256. okay

and...everyone needs a hero. You shouldn't do that with "smarmy facts" in public.

[Rilgin]

232. Unfailing certainty is great prose.

We have faced unfailing certainty for decades claims that triangulation and moderation/centrism is the best political strategy. And it has worked sometimes but during these decades we lost the Senate, the House, governors races, state legislatures, the courts all while we as democratic voters had triangulating candidates pushed forward under claims that they were with unfailing certainty the best and most qualified candidates with the best political strategies. The ones that lost often ran safe campaigns only designed to not upset certain demographics. Perhaps the paradigm that would hold Bernie as unelectable because he is both consistent and stands for something is completely backward. Just because certain groups fear his candidacy does not mean that he is unelectable, it means it is a standard run of the mill election. There is always something about every candidate that is disliked or feared by some parts of the electorate.

Despite the desperate claims of the Bernie Hating contingent on this site, he is generally held in high regard and is and has been one of the most popular politicians in polls for the last few years because he stands for something. And of course not everyone likes him just as not everyone likes any Politian. No politician gets all the votes of the electorate in recent memory unless its a dictatorship. Saying some people wont vote for him is true but misleading since that is just a truism. We can see right before our eyes the coalition that is forming that will vote for Sanders and its a pretty big and strong coalition. Your fear is just mentioning that there are some groups that you fear will not. That is always true in an election.

In my mind, Sanders may be the best person to remove Trump and be president. He has an organization, excitement, does not scare people that feel like the Country needs substantial reforms, has a history of support for the issues that polls show people like and is pretty nimble when debating. However, I will admit that my opinion is said with less than unfailing certainty.

However, this may not even be the main competitive factor of this election and the actual democratic candidate name irrelevant. This election also pits the mood of many in the country to remove Trump against the true believing Trump cultists. This may be the only factor that decides the election.

[wnylib]

250. OK. Tell me what are the projected

demographics of Sanders votes in the general election?

All candidates have strategies for gaining enough votes to win. What is the Sanders strategy, state by state? Which states does he project to win in order to gain a majority in the electoral college?

All candidates face opposing candidates. What is the Sanders strategy for countering the Republican opposition? In order to counter the opposition's message, it is necessary to anticipate the opposition message and be prepared with a counter message. What will be the Trump message against Sanders, and how will Sanders successfully counter it to get a majority of electoral votes?

This is your chance to argue his case in detail.

And for the record, I am not a Sanders hater. I do not oppose MFA or free tuition. My own politics are left of the centrists. My concern about a Sanders candidacy is that the timing is wrong to make his programs the focal point of a crucial election. His supporters are feeling frustrated by lack of support among centrist Dems. That is nothing compared to voters outside of the Dem umbrella.

The strongest divisions in the nation are between the polar opposite ends of the political spectrum - the hard core RW supporters of Trump and the strongly committed progressive wing of Dems. In between are the majority of people who identify as Republican but moderate, and those who identify as Dems but centrist. Independents are not a monolithic group. Some lean left; others lean right.

One far right leaning candidate vs one far left leaning candidate forces people in the middle to abandon the middle and go to one end or the other. Which direction will the majority of them fall toward when forced to choose? How will preconceived ideas about either end influence which way they will go? How many will refuse to be forced and wiil go 3rd party or sit it out?

[luvtheGWN]

262. Just so you know,

my stated opinion has nothing to do with any hatred for Sanders. I reserve that feeling for the current monster in the White House.

But I do happen to think your optimism about the electorate may be over-ridden by the actuality. It remains to be seen. My progressive Democratic friends don't hate Bernie either, but if he's the nominee, they will definitely vote for him. Most of them believe Elizabeth Warren is more electable.

[MarcA]

235. Agreed and this should be an OP.

[beerandjesus]

243. That's pretty much why I've quit coming around here.

For all of my adult life, Democrats have been telling me we need to vote for the most right-wing candidate because that's how we win against Republicans. Somehow, we keep losing and losing and losing. Well, I'm done.

If you really want to beat Trump, there is one and only one choice, however hard the MSNBC boomers struggle to delude themselves. But we've seen that the party elite would rather lose to Donald Trump than give progressives a voice in the party. I'm not playing along anymore.

[LiberalFighter]

289. Vote for the most right wing candidate?

Who were those right wing candidates?

Obama on govtrack's scale was in the first sector in a five sector graph with the first being the left. Clinton was nearly there. And both showing some leadership experience.

[we can do it]

277. You just reinforced her point🙄.

[milan755803]

278. No hate here

Rilgin, just because I or someone else prefers another candidate rather than Sen. Sanders, does not mean we hate him! That is a completely erronious bit of thinking on your part as I see it. I like Sen. Sanders utopian ideas: free health care for all, free college tuition, etc. Yes, that would be nice, but I do not believe it is possible. Nice ideas and promises but not practical. Further, I sincerely believe that Sanders could not win if nominated. The Republicans would be unmerciful in attacking him (as they will with any Democrat) but they will forevermore pin the Socialist label on him and I truly thing that will not abide well with most voters. We need someone who can beat Trump and I do not think it would be Sen.Sanders.

[Rhiannon12866]

296. Thank you for your reasoned response and welcome to DU!

[COLGATE4]

65. Once again you have hit the nail on the head.

Thank you for this,as well as for many other excellent posts.

[olegramps]

269. Sander's statements praising communistic regimes many believe will sink him and our party.

His enthusiastic supporters want to ignore this fact, however, the Republicans will cut him to shreds. They will use his very words to paint him as an admirer of Castro and Communistic murderous dictators. The Republicans are praying that he wins the nomination. It is the height of irony that Putin, a bloody murder, is supporting his nomination knowing that he will be defeated by his own statements. Just how realistic are his promises that he can deliver Medicare for All, free college, high paying jobs, all financed by taxes on the wealthy.
Judging from his abysmal record in the congress of naming a couple of post offices I have as much faith in his promises as those of Trump who promised a universal health care plan that never materialized.

[LiberalFighter]

290. Lee Atwater would have pouced on that just like he did

with Dukakis in the tank.

[aeromanKC]

2. +1000

[apcalc]

3. Very well said. I believe Mr Sanders will have no coattails.

There will be many downballot losses, it will take years to recover.
We will lose close races. Any gains we have had will be wiped out.

I am in PA . Now there are 6 neighbors who say they do not want Trump , but Sanders and Warren are too far left.
We need these people on our side. They like Joe, they like Amy. They will vote for a moderate.

Sorry, but I see disaster.

[DanieRains]

95. Nance Now Explain Why So Many Voted For Obama Then Voted For Trump?

Because they thought Democrats didn't fight for them.

We all know we fight harder for working folks than Republicans, but many Americas are not that bright.

Bernie has fought for the powerless from the '60's. From minimum wage, to unions.

I know working for the poor and powerless isn't as popular as being a regular moderate, but for some of us it makes all the difference.

100 million Americans don't vote because they (and we have all heard it before) "hate politicians". There is not a lot to hate in someone who has worked for the poor, and powerless their entire career.

I say Bernie could get 20% or 30% of the non voters to have someone to follow, just like with Obama promising "change" then getting ambushed by the Republicans.

Changing a government where the 1% gets paid first EVERY TIME will be hard. They say Bernie can't do it. And unless 100 Million Americans demand a government that represents ALL AMERICANS they will be right. Bernie, and no one else can do it. The attacks by the 1% supporting folks will be devastating. Americans are afraid, for good reason.

America is and oligarchy. Time someone changed that. I hope people realize how badly they are being screwed, while debt is piled on their kids like never before and demand someone who wants the wealthy to actually pay taxes like us working fools do.

I will support whoever our nominee is.

A burning bag of dog poop would make a better president than Trump.

I also think after watching Hillary ignore Trump's dirty deeds, Bernie will attack Trump in a way that will make Bloombergs ads seem like what Don Jr. would do. He deserves it.

God Help Us. If we stand together, we win.

I do know one thing. Bernie didn't go into politics to get a well paid lobbying job when he is done campaigning.

Have a great evening my friends.

[betsuni]

149. Why so many voted for Obama then voted for Trump:

The economy was terrible by 2007, the Republican Party deeply unpopular after eight years.

Despite the improving economy under the Obama administration people perceived a bad one: "Indeed, Obama was the only president since John F. Kennedy whose approval ratings did not increase alongside consumer sentiment. In fact, in Obama's case, the relationship between consumer sentiment and his approval rating was actually negative." Whites increasingly became Republicans: "In Pew Research Center surveys from 2007, whites were just as likely to call themselves Democrats as they were to call themselves Republicans. But by 2010, whites were 12 points more likely to be Republicans than Democrats." This trend continued.

Quotes from "Identity Crisis."

[AverageJoe]

207. Spot on. n/t

[leftieNanner]

4. Excellent!

Thanks for your thoughtful post Nance. I completely agree.

[Hermit-The-Prog]

5. We shouldn't have to sacrifice the country so BS can go out in a blaze of glory.

We will all vote for him if he gets the nomination, but we won't be enough to win the general election. How will he do that when he divides instead of unifies?

[AZ8theist]

59. He won't care.

He'll take his millions in left-over campaign funds and go back to being an "Independent" Senator.
And show a GIANT MIDDLE FINGER to the Democratic Party.

[COLGATE4]

189. X100!

[calimary]

229. That's another thing that still bothers me about him.

Used our name, our party infrastructure, our party’s money and campaign structures and email lists and then when he didn’t win, took his ball and went home, kicking our party to the curb and going “independent” again. It felt strongly like a “well, the hell with you, then” slap in the face.

My face still feels the sting of that slap. Every time I see or hear him.

[dalton99a]

66. .

[LiberalFighter]

291. The way I read the delegate and convention rules it would disqualify him.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

6. k&r

[BeyondGeography]

7. Bernie is a formidable Democratic primary candidate

He would also unleash a shitstorm of negative advertising like we’ve never seen in the GE. The biggest problem wouldn’t be the socialism either, it would be patriotism and it would be ugly. Worst of all, there are facts in his past that would make the attacks difficult to parry. Knowing Bernie, his responses would more likely make things worse instead of better. He would be playing nonstop defense and our candidates down-ticket would have to head for the hills.

[MisterFred]

8. Political sites don't represent American voters.

We self-select for an interest in politics. An interest most voters do not share. See, for example, the big difference between who democratic voters are currently voting for & the preferences on DU & Dkos.

Don't use opinion on political sites to try to understand voters. They're two very different populations.

[ProfessorPlum]

197. I tried to make this point a while ago

by pointing out that whoever "wins" the debate on DU will have ~0 effect on how voters in the wild will vote.

It was not well received.

But I appreciate your wise perspective.

[MisterFred]

199. Love your username. nt

[Perseus]

275. Those bickering are trying to take people away from Sanders

My feeling is that if other candidate were on top they would be going after that person, and of course saying 'that person would loose to trump'.

[greatauntoftriplets]

9. By far, this is the best OP I've read all day.

[defacto7]

93. Ditto

[Bonobo]

10. Why start now?

It's been nothing but dishonesty here.

Starting with the lie that he is a socialist and proceeding from there.

Furthermore, your list of "facts" are not "facts"

Here is one of the things YOU pretend (dishonestly) is a fact:

"We know that Trump, the Russians, and the GOP are dying to see Bernie as the Dem nominee. "

But it's not a fact. It's an opinion and one that does not suggest very sophisticated or subtle thinking IMO.

So no, I do not get the impression that you are capable of an "honest discussion" about Sanders.

[NanceGreggs]

15. So Trump is defending Bernie ...

... because he's terrified that Bernie will beat him in the GE?

[Hassin Bin Sober]

80. And there is is.

Glad I tl;dr’d this 1/4 of the way through and skipped to comments.

[jmowreader]

17. Hold on for a second

Watch this:

He comes right out and says, "I am a socialist."

[cheezmaka]

172. Trump's Camp is definitely gonna play this during the GE

They're gonna have a FIELD DAY with this one...

[Progressive dog]

217. He's said that numerous times

and then has explained why he doesn't use that term anymore.

[TwilightZone]

18. "Starting with the lie that he is a socialist "

He's been calling himself a socialist for decades, so who's lying? Sanders?

I can't believe that anyone is still making the ridiculous assertion that Sanders isn't a socialist.

Perhaps you should tell him, because he hasn't gotten the memo.

https://www.politifact.com/article/2015/aug/26/bernie-sanders-socialist-or-democratic-socialist/

[LovingA2andMI]

98. What will be funny....and downright sad....

Is Bernie Sanders diehard supporters trying to prove he is "not a socialist" when he says all day, every day, he is a socialist.

[peggysue2]

121. x 1000!

Does anyone really think that the great swath of Americans, those who have a living memory of the disaster that socialism was and is, will accept Sanders' explanation of Democratic Socialism? If so, I have an Atlantic Ocean beachfront property to sell you in Kansas. And btw, when you're explaining, you're losing.

Add that to the general divisiveness of Bernie Sanders' message, the unicorn and lollipop promises, not to mention the inability and unwillingness to back anything up with actual numbers, as in Math, and the whole schtick is a House of Cards.

I will vote for the Democratic nominee, even if it's Bernie Sanders. But there are people like my husband who will refuse. This is a man who has been voting Democratic since Clinton's second term. He'd voted for Poppy Bush because he truly admired the man. But once he saw the Repugs in action while Clinton served his first term, he was thoroughly disgusted. He's been voting for the Democratic Party ever since. But tonight at dinner he said, "Sorry, I cannot and will not vote for Sanders. You'll have to go to the polls by yourself."

That's one vote lost and I can guarantee you, there will be many, many more if the Senator from Vermont captures the nomination. Because the majority of Americans will not vote socialist to replace Trump. Bernie supporters can jump up and down and say it's untrue and unfair. But people like my husband, socially liberal but fiscally moderate, will simply stay home.

And then, we can all hope we survive the next four frigging years of a demented mobster in the White House.

[democratisphere]

22. BS has no idea how he is going to pay for all of the sh't he has promised everyone

and his brother and sister. How can you have an honest conversation about a guy when he can't even begin to be honest himself.

[SunSeeker]

54. We are a reality based community, Bonobo.

It is a fact that the Russians are helping Bernie be the nominee. Mueller stated in the Mueller Report that Russians were doing that in 2016. And the IC (Intelligence Community) determined that Russians are helping Bernie be the 2020 Dem nominee. Bernie admits he was informed of this a month ago. https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/21/politics/bernie-sanders-russia-election-interference/index.html

The GOP want Bernie to be the Democratic nominee. Down-ballot Republicans watch with glee as Sanders gains steam.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/02/21/congress-sanders-republicans-trump-116523

Trump wants Bernie to be the Democratic nominee. He keeps tweeting to goad Bernie on. He just urged Bernie, "don't let them take it [the Dem nomination] away from you."

Link to tweet

Those facts are...facts. The OP is not being "dishonest." She is stating reality.

[ripcord]

84. So if Bernie drops out and Putin switches his support to Biden will you expect Biden to drop out?

Then he can switch to Buttigieg, and he will have to drop and then Warren, then Bloomberg, then Kobuchar and so on. Of course we all know that once Sanders is gone the goalposts will be moved and other candidates won't be expected to drop out.

[SunSeeker]

94. Putin would not switch his support to Biden. Maybe to Gabbard.

The OP does not oppose Bernie for our nominee because Russia supports him. The issue is WHY Putin, the GOP and and Trump want Bernie to get the nom. The OP makes very clear why they do. None of those reasons exist with Biden, Buttigieg, Warren, or Klobuchar.

The OP's biggest problem with Bernie is not his Russian support:

But my biggest problem is the fact that so many Bernie supporters are simply ignoring the facts. Bernie is divisive at a time when we need to be united – and that doesn’t bode well for beating Trump in November. If Bernie can’t unite Democrats, he won’t be uniting the country any time soon. 

[Bluepinky]

108. Trump and Putin are trying to sow discord and divisiveness in the Democratic Party.

And judging by the comments seen here, they’re doing a fantastic job.

[tecelote]

147. +1!

[MFM008]

134. Im old enough to remember

Maggot NOT coming out on the white house lawn
And congratulate Mayor Pete on his win in Iowa.
That did NOT Happen.
It DID happen for Sanders.

[Progressive dog]

224. Sweden does have socialized medicine. Bernie wants to copy it

and he wants to centralize it.

The Swedish health care system is mainly government-funded, universal for all citizens and decentralized, although private health care also exists. A shortage of medical personnel is a major problem. The health care system in Sweden is financed primarily through taxes levied by county councils and municipalities.

Prescription drugs are not free but fees to the user are capped at 2,200 kr per annum. Once a patient's prescriptions reach this amount, the government covers any further expenses for the rest of the year.

Private health insurance is still allowed, though. Bernie would rip it away so that his plan would not have any thing to compare it with.

ccording to Nima Sanandaji, at the end of 2017, 643,000 individuals in Sweden were fully covered by private health insurance, which is 6.5% of the population of Sweden. This is an increase of over half a million fully covered by private health insurance compared to 2000.[

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Sweden#Details_and_patient_costs

[LanternWaste]

248. You'll fail to see the irony in your allegation of others being dishonest.

I'm glad you found free time... guess there's no benign PSA's to get upset over.

[dalton99a]

11. A great post and accurate summary

which surely will be attacked by fanatical followers

[DonaldsRump]

12. Really well said!

I will 100% support Bernie if he wins the nomination, but he won't win the Presidency for exactly the reasons you say. Why else would the Russians support Bernie?

I like Bernie, and in an ideal world, some of the things he talks about are what I would like to see in the USA. But this is not an ideal world, and it is 100% crystal clear that the label "socialist" or "communist" is what they will smear Bernie with. Unfortunately, there may be more truth than the usual Rus-publican smear, and again they will be aided by the Russians.

I think in the next couple of weeks the D candidates need to hit Bernie hard about exactly why the Russians are helping him and, frankly, why he took a month to make this public. I'm not for a moment suggesting Bernie is in cahoots with the Russians, but he sure has benefited from their illegal support and it's now time to bring that to voters' attention.

As I said, I will support Bernie if he is our nominee. However, he shouldn't be our nominee, and we will clearly lose if he is the nominee.

[smirkymonkey]

255. +1000

[rwheeler31]

13. Thank you Nance this is the most ugly primary

and I fear the truth is losing.

[BadgerMom]

14. K and R

[relayerbob]

16. Thank you

Now, can the moderates somehow stop their futile competition no single one of them can win alone and form some sort of a Democratic Unity Coalition behind one of them (personally, I'd propose EW, but Biden with EW as VP might work well, too), so we can quit splitting the vote and giving Sanders wins with 30% of the vote (yes, I know he did better than that in NV)?

[Blue_true]

31. The moderates won't.

You see how their supporters on DU are trashing other moderate candidates. The candidates have egos, will Biden withdraw if he doesn't do well in South Carolina? Will Warren withdraw if she finishes fourth or fifth? There are big egos involved, for Biden this is his last stand, likely the same for Warren.

[relayerbob]

34. Didn't say they would

But sure is a nice fantasy dream

[Blue_true]

41. If they don't withdraw, at some point Sanders will have too much momentum, like Trump in 16. nt

[TwilightZone]

77. Yeah, it has a lot of simularities.

Trump basically picked the candidates off one by one because there were too many of them to start and the few remaining couldn't figure out how to rally behind one anti-Trump candidate to stop him.

The perfect storm.

[Haggis for Breakfast]

19. On Stephanie Miller's show last week,

Malcolm Nance enumerated beautifully and concisely (as only he can) how much the Russians are invested* in seeing Bernie get the DNC nod at the convention. They are determined to sow chaos in any way they can, and that includes dividing up the Dems and siccing them upon one another. Putin knows that Bernie is divisive in so many ways, and that by driving a wedge through the party, he can (once again) control and manipulate our election.

*as in terms of millions of dollars, especially in cyber/bot ops of disinformation.

[Cha]

127. Damn.. we knew it!

Thanks for that, Haggis

[Cal Carpenter]

20. He wins nearly every demographic of Democratic voters

Including moderates, along with a plurality of independents.

He is bringing an incredibly diverse coalition of voters to the polls when it comes to race, ethnicity, age, education, and income. Far more so than any other candidate in the field.

How that makes him "an extremely divisive figure" I may never understand.

And the people voting for him are doing so either because of or in spite of his association with democratic socialism. It i s very well known. There is no gotcha moment coming from that. National polls don't mean much but he does as good or better than everyone else in the field in head to heads against Trump, with the exception of a few polls. This is also true in most state level head to heads.

I understand that not everyone agrees with his policies, or likes his personality. I know 3 people personally who have a real problem with him, but that's it, and I talk politics with tons of people in my day job. But his approval ratings in terms of trust, empathy, and electability are actually quite high among Democrats, in most cases better than everyone else in the field. And, most importantly, his actual election results are bearing this out, and his polls continue to climb.


To me, this adds up to looking like unity, not division.

These are my honest thoughts on the facts of the matter. I hope they come across as such.

And virtually every claim I've made is backed up by the poll aggregate sites like RCP and 538.

[Doitnow]

71. Ditto. Go, Bernie.

[madamesilverspurs]

21. As a friend of mine put it:

Bernie is doing to the Democratic Party what the Tea Party did to the Republicans.


.

[Yavin4]

28. That would mean the Democrats will win the presidency?

[TCJ70]

23. Here? No...I don't think we can.

There are too many posters here who dedicated the last four years to denigrating him and blaming him for everything under the sun that goes wrong anywhere. In addition to the loud ones, there’s a significant majority who silently agree with them. This is the last place you could expect an honest conversation about Sanders.

[Steelrolled]

24. My thoughts exactly. The question made me chuckle.

[NanceGreggs]

25. Yeah, I know.

It's all of that "Bernie hatred" going around, right?

[TwilightZone]

30. Works both ways.

When some of his supporters continue to insist that referring to him as a socialist is a false, right-wing smear, the chances of an honest conversation aren't any higher, and that's just one example.

People see what they want to see, and if you're only seeing false information from supporters of other candidates, it's because that's all you're looking for. There are some Sanders supporters on DU who post little other than false information and seemingly are trying to alienate as many people as possible, so much so that I question whether they're really his supporters at all. Some of them have been here for years and have thousands of posts, so if they're trolls, they're rather dedicated ones.

[ibegurpard]

138. yep

[handmade34]

26. good

but I think your summary is amiss... I do not think Bernie's supporters have a way to educate the populace about the facts... the people we need to understand have already had their thinking diluted by continual lies and misconceptions spouted by trump and Republicans... the education needed doesn't happen overnight, it takes getting bit by a personal epiphany, something that hits them where it hurts or to someone they love...

other than that, what you say is what I have been patiently trying to explain to all around me... Bernie is my Senator I have known him for almost 40 years… and my work for 12 years (since before Obama was elected) took me into neighborhoods all across the United States... I can't say I have a crystal ball but my experience, my research, my heart, my bones tell me that the chances of Bernie beating trump and bringing Dems along with him into Congress is mighty slim

[dalton99a]

29. Chances of "socialism" gaining ground in the swing states are approximately zero.

This is not an election to satisfy someone's ego

[NanceGreggs]

35. That was my point ...

... and apologies if I wasn't as clear as I meant to be.

The Bernie supporters don't have a way to convince the "I'll never vote for a socialist" folks that he doesn't represent the kind of socialism they are against. And they certainly can't accomplish that between now and November.

[Yavin4]

27. If everything you've posted is true and is well known, why can't Biden defeat him?

If Biden cannot defeat Bernie, what makes you think that he can beat Trump? Same goes for all of the other candidates.

[handmade34]

85. Vote Blue no Matter Who

is a great and effective Democratic meme, I think we can count on the majority of Democrats voting for whomever the candidate is... but, we need more than Democrats... there is no room for error

[AverageJoe]

112. That is a very good point

Bernie, to this point, is the only candidate showing the kind of staying power that will be needed to beat trump.

[fleabiscuit]

126. Ha! "to this point"

It’s been three caucuses in, “to this point.” You have given me chuckle. Rare in these times.

[Cha]

129. Swing States.

[NoMoreRepugs]

206. Republican project chaos, influence of Russian misinformation and influence

campaign - might this be a part of the explanation? At this point I’m not sure anyone knows for sure if they are or are not the reason Biden hasn’t broken through - time will tell maybe??

[democratisphere]

32. THIS! THIS! THIS!

Extremely well said! Democrats should be electing Democrats, NOT a namby-pamby Independent Democratic Socialist who makes promises he will never be able to keep.

[Doitnow]

81. Well, why aren't they? Nobody is stopping them.

[democratisphere]

97. Sometimes when someone repeats the same thing over and over

again, SOME people start to believe it. Problem is with BS the salesman; he has absolutely no way to pay for it.

[Doitnow]

201. Some people aren't paying attention when Bernie has explained how he does pay for his plans. I'd

Like to know why there is not a shred of scrutiny given to the cost of wars for OIL. Bernie’s plans would amount to a pittance compared to them.

[democratisphere]

214. The majority of vehicles still run on fossil fuels and will for the immediate future.

Further, plastic comes from oil and almost everything is plastic. BS has no legitimate way to pay for all of his plans. Talk is cheap. Action is impossible.

[Doitnow]

247. Most of that will have to change or we won't have a planet. Meantime there are many solutions

That are available (solar and wind, just to mention a couple) that Big Money constantly tries to suppress or kill because that would interfere with their profits. I wonder if they think their children and grandchildren have ways of surviving while others are suffering with no air to breathe and no good water to drink.

Too many people with too much money who can’t see beyond the end of their noses or too lazy, miserly or stupid to see what is coming. (Brings to mind Bloomberg’s performance the other night) Well, the young people do and just maybe that’s why they are acting up.

[Hoyt]

33. Unfortunately, every generation needs their George McGovern. But it's bad timing.

[denem]

50. Does every generation need their Walter Mondale too?

A former Vice President, foisted on the electorate by Dem power blocks, who was as exciting and inspiring as a dead towel.

Explanation: I am sick of people eviscerating MCGovern, who was a WWII hero, who served the Democratic Party faithfully from 1956 to 1980.

[Hoyt]

57. Agree. He still lost big time, and I still support him.

[denem]

69. It was not McGovern's fault that Nixon ratfucked Muskie.

If Sanders loses the GE in a blow out, he, and his cabal of ratfuckers will own it 100%.

[BlueTsunami2018]

64. The election results eviscerated McGovern.

I don’t think anyone has ever ripped him as a person or his service to the country or party. Good guy, got utterly destroyed in the election. That’s what happened, that’s what will happen again if we keep going the way we’re going.

[TwilightZone]

70. One of my favorite McGovern stories involved John Kerry.

He said that Kerry called him after he lost and asked how long it would take before he got over it and could move on.

I don't remember the exact quote, but McGovern told him that he'd let him know when it happened.

[denem]

79. Failure is an orphan.

I can't imagine how much it hurt and distressed both men having Nixon and W re-elected.

[denem]

73. And can you appreciate why I might be offended,

having McGovern compared to Sanders?

[BlueTsunami2018]

90. Sure, if he was being compared to him as a person.

It’s terribly insulting to McGovern.

[denem]

91. Yep.

I can't say more while staying with the DU rules.

[peggysue2]

128. Bad timing, indeed!

I sometimes feel there are many who do not grasp the urgency of the moment, the true danger we're actually in as a country, a people.

But we're all going to find out when the train goes fully off the cliff. And then it will be too damn late.

[sheshe2]

36. KnR

[fallout87]

37. Im sorry your guy Biden is not doing well

But theres no need to disparage Bernie supporters because he is doing well.

[NanceGreggs]

44. Bernie doing well or not doing well ...

... in the primaries has little to do with how he'll fare in the GE.

[fallout87]

198. And we aren't at the GE

So all of those claiming Bernie cant win are merely guessing

[nini]

257. you just proved her point

LOL

[PatSeg]

38. Thank you for a clear assessment

Good point about Bernie supporters accusing people of being "Bernie haters", but we don't see that happen with other candidates.

Actually, I've always liked Bernie, but I never liked him as a presidential candidate. During this primary however, I've grown to dislike him and it has nothing to do with anything other people have said. It is because of the way he, his staff, and some of his supporters have behaved.

Someone told me that she had a long time friend who is a Bernie supporter. If any of her Democratic friends refuse to support him, she called them DINOs and Trump supporters. On the other hand, I have encountered a lot of people here at DU who supported Bernie in 2016, but aren't this time for various reasons including temperament and uncertain electability in a general election.

I don't understand why some of his supporters (not all of course) are coming across as so fanatical, but it is very unsettling. I really don't see this with any of the other candidates. Is extremism throughout our society going to be the new norm? Its starting to feel like a virus.

[Pantagruel]

39. Bernie angst is overdone

A bag of hammers should be able to defeat Trump. Let the voters decide the primary, confidently unite behind him / her and stop already tearing your hair out.

[uponit7771]

210. Sanders has no historical swing state appeal outside of MOE, Biden has the most so Sanders is worse

... than a bag of hammers right now.

It's swing state polling that matters and we're not beating Trump outside of MOE with Sanders

[Sloumeau]

40. Thank you for taking the time to articulate this. :) nt

[oldsoftie]

42. Nobody will believe that republicans will vote for ANY Dem.

I've posted what you said many times and always get called naive for thinking that anyone who voted for trump will consider any dem different from another. But its true, and many have written articles about it. But the head-in-sand types refuse to accept it

[NanceGreggs]

48. The die-hard Trump-humping 'base' ...

... won't vote for a Democrat. But not all GOP voters are part of that base.

[oldsoftie]

78. I agree. But so many here just wont listen to that reality.

the people i've spoken about are people i've known for years. I know they're not "just saying it to fool" me. They'd tell me what they think. And a trump voter who either just stays home is a win. But these people wont stay home if Sanders is the candidate. They'll hold their nose and vote trump again.
Just like i posted in another thread; DU voters arent the ones who will decide the next election

[yuiyoshida]

113. I wonder who these guys will vote for....

Some Americans who would rather be Russian than a Democrat....I wonder if they be willing
to learn Russian? I think at their age, probably not.

Assholery right here in America folks... meh.

[Vivienne235729]

208. THIS is how idiot people have become. And yet, they wrap themselves in the flag

[ibegurpard]

137. Because they won't

Trump has a sky-high approval rating with Republicans. If they tell you otherwise they are lying to put a more moderate face on it. Yeah there are a miniscule few who will defect but not enough to swing anything. Trump is Republicans without the polite veneer and they will support him to the end.

[apcalc]

167. Here in the Philly burbs in PA, my middle age women and some men

Are ready to swing away from Trump... but not to Sanders.
I am hoping that we don’t blow it.

[oldsoftie]

293. But people wont believe you. I know a few of those people too; here in GA.

I also know some die-hards. Two different groups.

[Martin Eden]

237. In the latest Gallup poll on Party affilication, 42% were Independents

Link

Polls always have room for error, but even with a swing 20% there is still a broad swath in the middle that can (and likely will) swing this election.

The question to ask:
How many independent voters who may vote either party are willing to vote Democratic Socialist?

[hz-xlnc]

43. FDR

out of the depression and re-elected until he died leading to 60 years of democratic majorities in congress. democratic socialism. tycoon tears. the serious conversation was had in '16

[TwilightZone]

45. Sanders isn't FDR.

[SunSeeker]

67. The Socialist Party opposed FDR. They had their own candidate, Eugene Debs, Bernie's hero.

Bernie has spent his entire adult life bashing the Democratic Party.
His hero is Socialist Eugene Debs, not FDR.

Bernie made a glowing documentary of Debs in which Bernie does the voice over for Debs' speeches, including the one where he says both the Democratic and Republican Parties are equality opposed to workers rights:

Bernie admiringly recites Debs speeches from memory:

This, and much much more, will all be common knowledge by the time of the general election. The GOP attack ads will be brutal and effective.


It will be a bloodbath.

God help us all.

[hz-xlnc]

82. truth

speaks for itself

[SunSeeker]

86. Dems and the GOP are not the same when it comes to workers' rights. Debs lied.

The Democratic Party gave us virtually every important worker protection law we have. The Republican Party has fought the Democratic Party on that every step of the way.

[Cha]

131. And, she just posted the "Truth".

[lapfog_1]

164. holy mother of god

we might even lose a number of blue states...

[KPN]

178. Lol. The GOP is going to use stuff like this to

scare people about our candidate no matter who that person is. Let them use the 30 second piece using Bernie’s voice. It’s a powerful statement. Those who find it objectionable are already going to vote against any Democrat.

Oh, thanks for posting though ... some good thought provoking stuff there. And quite educational.

[AncientGeezer]

238. hz-xlnc..I knew FDR..Sen Sanders is no FDR......for the alert...it's a joke based on

...Sen. Bentsen's VP debate answer to Quayle

[emmaverybo]

47. Balanced, fair and sadly true. I say sadly because it seems Bernie might win the nom. And all your

points state the problems with that beautifully.

[dbolski]

49. Don't you think members within the party should take some responsibility

for making it known that they planned to 'stop' Bernie in the first place? I don't think after you go public with plans to stop a member of your own party from winning an election you can then complain when that person says they're not gonna let you stop them.

[NanceGreggs]

62. He's not a member of my own party. n/t

[dbolski]

116. Oh well then you should have told him that before you let him run on your ticket.

Had you been honest then and said no we don't want you, he could have ran as an independent. But since you didn't want that and you DID let him run on your ticket he is for all intents and purposes a democrat. You can't have it both ways.

[NanceGreggs]

150. I wasn't the one who 'let' him.

[MrsCoffee]

177. We had no say in it or he wouldn't be on our ticket.

I would have had no problem with him running as an Independent. None at all. He would have been laughed off the scene. With no coalition behind him, no Democratic infrastructure and fundraising, he would be TOAST. His fifteen minutes would have been up five years ago.

[AverageJoe]

204. Not only is he a member of your own party

He is poised to become the wildly popular leader of the party.

[RazBerryBeret]

51. it's not like people outside these sites

Don't support him, don't like him, etc.
I mean he's gotten over 5 million individual donations, which is record breaking. That's something.
He ranks in the top five on the list of most popular politicians. (Obama is deservedly still #1)
His favorability rating among both dems and reps is second only to Biden.
He frequently has the highest attendance at rallies.

Popular candidates get people out to vote, they engage people. Not that our other candidates won't, but why discount this strength?
Not a single person here or outside of this bubble knows how this is going to play out. Why not let this play out, it's just been three states.

I don't think his supporters are ignoring facts, I think by continuously denigrating him as a candidate makes his supporters dig in their heels.

[kozar]

52. or we can boil this all down

and I ask simply,,why is he still so determined to be an "I" candidate,, and still decides to be "D" when he wants? At some point, and I will vote for him if he wins nomination. Why not have the cahoonies to be D? it is the one question I will ask, I agree with alot of his policies,and, "beliefs". Seems his biggest belief is to have an "I" behind his name. no one has even tried to answer this question. As an "I", why does he never, and has never, entered a Republican race?

[Capt. America]

53. First, I like Bernie's drive to make America a more just society. That said, I think he is divisive.

Personally, I don't care for his tone. He seems to be "yelling" at America all the time. Our current (ahem) "President" also yells at America all the time. I think if he wins the presidency it will continue this perpetual tone of divisiveness. I think we need a healer, not another combatant in the White House. I need a break after Trump.

[maddiemom]

228. Yes, it's the yelling that turns me off. It's as if we're always being scolded...

even if most of it isn't directed at us. He gets so red in the face that, especially since his heart attack I keep being worried that he'll stroke out.

[Ron Green]

55. I think you answered your own question:

It’s “No.”

[highplainsdem]

56. Sanders himself said in 1972 that he didn't mind being called a communist. RW media are making

more and more Republicans aware of that.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1287566598

[notinkansas]

58. Oh no! You too?

I'm so tired of all the Bernie bashing.

[SunSeeker]

61. Stating facts is not Bernie bashing. It is vetting.

Hopefully it's not too late.

[NanceGreggs]

68. Thanks for making my point.

Criticism of any candidate is just that - criticism.

But criticism of Bernie is "bashing".

[pazzyanne]

60. "I am only writing this to say that there are legitimate reasons for many of us...

… not wanting Bernie to be the nominee – and insisting that “Bernie hatred” is the root of the problem is not only insulting and condescending, it is self-defeating." EXACTLY!!! And I would add disrespectful. This is primary season, and, the last time I checked, the right to promote your first choice candidate is still operational. Being told who I have to support goes against my principles and brings out my inner oppositional defiance and resistance. Been an activist too long to lay down and roll over to that kind of persuasion. We will talk later about VOTING BLUE NO MATTER WHO.

[William769]

63. It's impossible to talk to a brick wall.

[rusty quoin]

72. I do not support Putin.

I voted for Bernie in the primary and Hillary in the General, 2016. I’ve listened to him on Thom Hartmann for years on Fridays.

As for education, it’s been done and it is an FDR decades long prosperity it has already been done.

[SunSeeker]

74. K & R

[Vivienne235729]

75. +10000 EXACTLY!! I have been trying to say exactly this in different posts.

Thank you for saying it so much better than I ever could.

[world wide wally]

76. 2020: Cult vs Cult?

[dalton99a]

212. Bros vs Redhats

Who wins?

[lutherj]

83. Your posts are better when you use anaphora. Please start every paragraph with the same words.

[NCProgressive]

87. I agree completely

Thank you for expressing this so succinctly.

[Anniem60]

88. Pure BS

I’m glad you spent so much time stirring the pot & adding complete and utter nonsense to the mix. Don’t be speaking about all Bernie supporter negstively because you see a few bad ones. I’ve seen many bad HRC supporters (including but not limited to Deborah Wasserman Schultz) and status quo enthusiasts. How long are we all supposed to wait before lack of healthcare and climate change kills most of us?

Bernie has been in the game for 40 years and proven himself to be a fighter for the people. Bernie marched for civil rights. FDR brought social policies to protect the people of this nation during the great depression, policies that gave us a thriving middle class for 40 years until the great dismantling of government for the people beginning with Reagan. Democrats were hoodwinked into believing that the country was center right, and unlimited corporate campaign donations helped convince them of this untruth. It’s never been a country that leaned conservative, and that’s why the republicans need to cheat in every single election.

Bernie and Warren are our best chance to win, and hopefully together as a team.

[AncientGeezer]

239. Honest question...what has the Senator gotten done in his... as you say..40 yrs?

[NYMinute]

89. We can't have an honest discussion here

I suspect the admins are pro-Bernie.

[ZZenith]

114. You are joking, right?

Please tell me you’re joking.

[Hekate]

119. ....

[Beartracks]

92. 4th-to-last paragraph: my fears exactly. n/t

[defacto7]

96. Thank you, NG. Clearly and powerfully said.

[Cha]

99. Brava, Nance.. Brilliant analysis! Many of

us have lived every word..

Mahalo nui loa~

[Bluepinky]

100. Your "honest conversation" about Bernie is nothing but a list of criticisms

of both him and his supporters. He has strong support from young people and the Hispanic community. Are all of them ignoring the facts by supporting him? It’s pretty condescending to suggest that anyone who supports Bernie only does so because they’re ignorant.

Maybe the people who support him like his ideas about providing affordable health care for everyone, about increasing minimum wages to living wages, about removing corporate money from politics, about increasing access to higher education to anyone who’s smart enough to get in, to creating a more progressive tax system, to making drastic changes in energy acquisition to positively affect climate change, etc.

Maybe we should label the Republican Party with what they have become, the Republican Fascist Party. We can easily explain the difference between fascism, where the government is owned and operated by wealthy corporations, and socialism, where the government is owned and operated by the people.

[NanceGreggs]

105. "It's pretty condescending to suggest ...

... that anyone who supports Bernie only does so because they’re ignorant."

I never said Bernie supporters are ignorant. I said they are ignoring the facts about why so many of us don't support him, why he'll have problems winning the GE - and why yelling "you're just a bunch of Bernie-haters" is a ridiculous comeback when he is challenged or criticized.

[Bluepinky]

117. OK, I think we should get behind whatever candidate wins the nomination.

If it’s a moderate Democrat, which is generally what we get, we should get behind him or her. And if it’s a progressive Democrat, or even a Democratic Socialist, we should support him or her as well. If we start fighting amongst ourselves, we’re doing exactly what Trump, Putin and the Republican Fascists want us to do. Don’t let them manipulate us. Stay focused on the goal, which is to win the Presidency and Senate, and to maintain control of the House. Bernie is in the lead now, but he hasn’t won yet. If he does win, I’ll do what I can to get him into the White House, and would hope every other Democrat would do so as well.

[emmaverybo]

123. He benefitted from misrepresenting his own stances on immigration and the Obama

administration’s. Also, with GOP help. Bernie and GOP put out a lot of Spanish language ads. The GOP’s were aimed at Biden, trashing Obama’s deportations, legal deportations by the way, making Biden out to be a monster.

Bernie was never supported by the Hispanic community before was he? I believe his campaign has been coordinating with the folks who go around protesting Biden’s record on immigration, interrupting him, confrontational, leaving out of course the Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act the admin tried to get passed which would give 11 million amnesty and a pathway to citizenship. They leave out DACA too.

Again, divisive. And using disinformation. So eventually Bernie’s own record will be known. I don’t think he will HAVE “the Hispanic community” which simply means all Spanish speaking people, all across the nation, as they are quite diverse culturally, in nationality, ethnicity, how they identify, just
speak the same language, even then, variations.

[yuiyoshida]

101. I agree...

[dawg day]

102. My problem is that he seems to enjoy alienating those of us who will eventually have to vote-

I don't get it. He can't win the presidency just with his own base. He needs the whole party. Why act like we're the enemy?

I have no problem with his policies, but I find his resentment and anger difficult to deal with, and I think many other women voters will too. He could just tone it down, or take it out on Trump. It would be good for him to start building instead of burning bridges.
We want to feel great about supporting the eventual candidate. I hope he makes that really easy.

(NB: I will vote for anyone against Trump.)

[Eyeball_Kid]

103. Nance, you're on the money.

I've used the perspective that candidates have their policy differences as well as their "brand" differences. Bernie's brand has the "socialist" pejorative embedded in his entire campaign. Yes, his brand diverges from his policy proposals, which, as uncanny as it sounds, are almost entirely mainstream. Majorities of the voters want what Bernie advocates. But you're right that the negative aspects of the brand are linked to belief systems that are difficult to overcome. Bernie, to some, will always be some kind of Soviet throwback, perhaps enough to keep him from winning.

Sanders supporters should be keenly aware that their candidate has severe limitations. If his following loses perspective, becomes "true believers", and ends up being defined by their self-indulgences, the Dems will be snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. IMO, this election isn't about getting a Democrat in the White House as much as it is about literally saving the Constitution, protecting the Rule of Law, promoting the general welfare, and beginning with utmost urgency to address climate change. And that means removing Trump from the White House.

[zak247]

106. Democratic establishment into panic mode

Sanders sends Democratic establishment into panic mode
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/02/23/sanders-democratic-establishment-panic-mode-117065

What do these dummies expect when they have 4 candidates splitting the moderate vote and leaving Bernie with the bulk of the base.

The egos of so-called moderate Democrats are going to hand Bernie the democratic nomination

Are these people just stupid... Their egos are getting Bernie the nomination and they're wondering what’s happening.

Bloomberg, Buttigieg, Clobuchar should just get out of the race and let Biden fight it out with Bernie. That’s the ONLY path to stop Bernie.

Buttigieg, Klobuchar, both have a chance like a snowball in hell of getting the nomination.

Bloomberg either. The average Democrat hates him and his debate performance was atrocious!

Biden, no super candidate like Obama, does have a chance if the above would quit so the moderate vote won’t split allowing Bernie to win big in the crazy democratic delusion machine that a radical socialist can win. An unlikely possibility.

[NanceGreggs]

110. As I have stated here several times now ...

... I will cast my vote AGAINST Trump, rather than FOR Bernie.

[LizBeth]

139. Nancegreggs just said not support of Sanders, but against Trump. Why wouldn't you respect

her statement? Why would you say thanks of the support if it was not about a jab?

[LizBeth]

141. The difference to being respectful for another, or not being respectful.

You might want to ask yourself why you chose disrespectful and why people feel as they do with Sanders suppoters.

[LizBeth]

143. Ah, you know better. Thank you.

[USALiberal]

179. classy! nt

[AverageJoe]

109. I'm a committed Democrat

and have voted for our nominee in every election since 1980. That’s not going to change.

That said, I have to respectfully take issue with your assessment of Senator Sanders.

From where I sit, Bernie is a strong candidate who represents all that is good in the party’s ideals. I proudly supported him in 2106 and I proudly support him now. Should he fail to win the nomination, I will enthusiastically support our nominee and vote blue, no matter who, in the general election, just as I — and the vast majority of Sanders’s supporters — did in 2016.

Outside the DU echo chamber, Senator Sanders is a unifying figure, bringing together a coalition that transcends race, gender, ethnicity, age, and, to the extent that he excites independent voters, even party affiliation. If you don’t like him, that’s fine, but be honest about what he brings to the table.

If you think any moderate Democrat is going to lure away Republican voters from trump, I believe you are mistaken. Perhaps Sanders won’t either, but he does very well with independent voters and people of color. And many, many committed Democrats support him strongly as well.

This far, all empirical evidence points to Sanders being our best hope for winning in November.

[Bluepinky]

118. Well said! I agree with your sentiments.

[Laelth]

111. Credit where it is due.

This is an excellent OP, and there's very little in it with which I disagree.

BUT it looks like there's a very good chance that Bernie will be our nominee.

So, what good does this OP do?

We had better start finding ways to become comfortable with having Bernie as our nominee. It looks like voting Democrats are going to pick him for us whether DU likes it or not.



-Laelth

[zak247]

115. Bernie can easily lose

People who support Bernie’s very controversial nomination have to consider that in 1972 and 1984, the two only times a radical lefty was nominated both times the Dems lost 49 states.

Just like Bernie, Mondale admitted in 1984 he was raising taxes on the middle class and he lost 49 states!

Consider that Bernie can ruin the down-ballot nominees in the Senate and Congress.

Consider the horror of 4 more years of not only Trump but a GOP senate and the losing of the Congress!

Imagine the SCOTUS. Imagine, the total loss of Obamacare, the cutting of SS, Food Stamps, the continuation of no-global warming, more tax cuts for the rich, loss of voting rights, the continuation of the division in the country, the horrible policy on Iran and the ME of the madman Trump.

Bernie can easily lose. In-fact all Trump has to do is win Florida and Pennsylvania and he’s in by a few electoral votes.

Bernie DOES NOT have the following his bros think he does. He is a divisive candidate who doesn’t have a revolution…that’s fantasy.

Maybe in 2008, when we were near in depression could Bernie have a chance but not in an economy perceived as good will Bernie, a socialist be able to win.

The people in those areas where the health insurance is great even better than Medicare might defeat Bernie.

Medicare IS NOT FREE. It doesn’t even have dental; it requires a monthly price of approximately 300 to 400 a month for a policy not nearly close to being as good as the many union shops in the country.

We may be going toward a political tragedy in America behind Bernie Sanders.

Think Twice, folks.

[Hekate]

120. Thanks as always, Nance

[zak247]

124. Is Bernie too rigid?

Bernie, again, I repeat will have a rough time winning when he has to admit he is going to raise taxes on the middle class to pay for his numerous programs that will cost trillions of dollars.

Bernie is also too rigid, therefore he won't moderate to even win the middle of the road American voters (who won't be impressed by his left rhetoric) he needs to win the swing states.

If he depends on all left-wing socialist rhetoric he will likely lose badly.

If you people think he can win in a decent economy by saying he will take good health insurance from millions and raise taxes on the middle class and continue in his class divisive politics than I think you're sorely mistaken.

There is a remote possibility Bernie can beat Trump and that is because Trump is so horrible as a human being and president.

But ask yourself an honest question. Do you have faith in a certain part of the American electorate to see Trump for what he is?

[hangaleft]

125. An excellent post

But it will change nothing.

For those of us who agree with you, you have eloquently restated what many of us have been saying for weeks (or months).

For those who disagree with you, they will continue to insist that their candidate can win and will lead us into free fall and, in all likelihood, autocracy.

A good read, but it won’t change one single mind.

[pink]

130. I agree 1000% with what you say

If Bernie wins the nomination, America loses. You can say good bye to the majority in the house. Absolutely no chance of a majority in the senate and Trump will reign for another 4 years. If you thought the last 3 years have been bad, imagine 4 more when he doesn't have to worry about running for re election, let alone impeachment. He has the Republicans under the thumb and he has totally corrupted the White House.

Its been an easy ride for Bernie. He came into the race as the victim because he thought he was hard-done-by 4 years ago. He has his support base from then, plus some and he's been out there pushing for the "progressive" vote almost on his own. He's tossed Warren by the wayside. Up against him are some very good "moderates". However, while they all stay in the race, the "moderates" vote is split, allowing Bernie to come skating right through the center.

Its time for the Democratic Party to have a discussion with the moderates before Bernie gets too far in front with delegates. Its almost an impossible situation, but something has to be done. I'd like to see Bloomberg give up on the ambition to become president but to help the moderates with his money to avoid certain defeat.

I would like to see the Democratic Party bring in a rule that you have to be a member of the party for at least 5 years before running for president as a Democrat.

I've seen too many bad results from federal elections in other countries, including my own, and if I see Trump get up again in November, I can only see bad things happening to the US and the rest of the world.

[lamp_shade]

132. Kick

[thewhollytoast]

135. Tell me about credit cards!

On August 1, 1917, labor organizer Frank Little was taken forcibly from his boarding house in Butte, Montana, and was lynched from a railroad trestle.

[uponit7771]

136. THANK YOU !!! Most Sanders supporters will NOT answer about losing Florida

[Meowmee]

145. He is tainted now

Due to concealing Putin’s support for him and non dem voters in open primaries, he needs to drop out. He had no chance of winning a general before that anyway imo. He has a lot of other issues, his health and he is not in control of his emotions. He should not have been allowed to run again. This is going to be a disaster.

[pertello]

146. Have you read this pamphlet?

“The Primary Route”
By Tom Gallagher

https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Primary_Route.html?id=AZN3CwAAQBAJ

Specifically this paragraph on page 14, 2.

And here is an excerpt from an interview with Gallagher:


TG “I wrote a book on this, actually, called The Primary Route. It’s a very well-unread book, making the argument that the only way to build an electoral left in this country is to run candidates in the Democratic presidential primary. If Bernie had gotten 15 percent in 2016, I would’ve considered it validation, as long as he did better than Dennis Kucinich. Imagine my reaction when he gave Clinton a run for her money, and then all of these people joined DSA.”
https://jacobinmag.com/2019/09/tom-gallagher-primary-challenge-nancy-pelosi-california

[Voltaire2]

148. Apparently not.

[B Stieg]

151. Apparently not.

[reACTIONary]

153. Thanks! K&R

[YOHABLO]

154. This isn't a conversation about Bernie. This is your opinion about Bernie.

If Bernie Sanders achieves the nomination we should all vote for him. Vote to remove Trump, vote on policies, but don't vote on Party Identity Politics. Those days are coming to an end. Why do you think elections are won by gaining the Independent voters?

[ehrnst]

219. "Identity politics"

Dismissive term for any issues that don't directly affect white straight men, and can't be solved with money.

[Kurt V.]

155. Sanders has formed a diverse coalition.

[markpkessinger]

156. Isn't it funny how many of the same Democrats who attack Bernie for not being a Democrat ...

... don't seem to be bothered in the least by Michael Bloomberg, whose political affiliation changes depending on his latest political project, who governed like a Republican, who had thousands of peaceful protesters (as well as bystanders) arrested indiscriminately at the 2004 Republican convention, detained them for the duration of the convention in a filthy, toxic warehouse that had two benches and four toilets (a move that ultimately cost the city $18 million in a legal settlement), and terrorized Black and Latino residents of this city for 12 years?

Just saying.

[NanceGreggs]

159. And also just saying ...

... the "but-what-about-him" meme is pointless.

We have a pretty impressive line-up on our side. No one is supporting a candidate on the basis that another candidate is somehow worse.

[markpkessinger]

161. Pointing out a double standard is not a "what about him" meme ...

... no matter how uncomfortable it makes some Democrats.

[KPN]

187. Exactly.

[empedocles]

157. BS is running a traitortrump campaign, based on 'facts don't exist' as N Greggs noted above.

Like trump, there is a hardcore of BS supporters who resble trump's hard core - acting or believing facts don't exist.
The trump/putin/BS support may be destructive, there may be more of the same to come.

So far its working for BS. There are real primaries, and real voters starting to hit the reality stages. There is time to stem these probllems, as BS/trump/putin exposure grows.

Let us hope so.

[Squinch]

158. Thank you. I agree with all that. Problem is, I also agree with the math that says he's our likely c

due to the fracturing of the moderates.

[cannabis_flower]

160. We don't need the people

We don't want Trump reelected to vote for Bernie. If they can't vote for either and they just don't vote that would be fine.

[LittleGirl]

162. This is the first time

that I totally disagree with you.

carry on

[bucolic_frolic]

163. Powerful essay, Democrats must face reality if they are going to win in November

Bernie supporters are living in lala land. There is nothing inevitable about him, his platform, his organization, his supporters. We've been down this road with left and far left candidates before. McGovern. Dukakis. And others who were painted left and lost - Gore, Mondale. My take is that Bernie's results would be most like Goldwater, 1964. The two candidacies were all about a facade that could not be sold to the general electorate.

[lapfog_1]

165. One last point

which I learned the hard way a long time ago...

Bernie will take a lot of "education" for the average voter...

and the thing is... we don't educate the voters... they educate us.

failure to understand this simple fact is why so many political movements fail.

[NanceGreggs]

168. That's a VERY good point! n/t

[lapfog_1]

169. As a young ( very young ) manager of a group of programmers

the very worst job in the world was bringing in these people into my office and explain that the company was not doing well and we had to downsize... and they were out of a job.

All because the company, which produces a superior product, was losing the competition to an upstart with an inferior product but which was much less expensive and did 80 percent of what we did.

I started out managing around 17 people. First round I had to lay off 5... second round was 3 more... and when my director asked me to lay off another 3 people... I just gave him just 1 name.

I never want to do that again... at that time and in that place... there weren't a bunch of other jobs for the people I terminated... I had 30 and 40 year old people in my office bawling and begging.

So I learned the very hard lesson, you don't educate the customer, the customer educates you.

If you have to spend your time explaining to people how it is that you have a "better thing" for them... because its not obvious... you have already lost the battle and maybe even the war.

It's the same in politics...

[Still Sensible]

254. Excellent analogy!

I will vote blue no matter who!

But I don't know if I can handle months of our side trying to educate the masses on the difference between being socialist and being a social democrat... especially with the GOP playing different clips of Bernie saying "I am a socialist" on every media available.

[Magoo48]

166. Didactic preaching and worn out attack points.

I’m gonna vote for my favorite and then support our nominee.

If I desire teaching and preaching on manipulated mythology, I’ll attend church.

[DanTex]

170. Facts? The data points to the opposite of what you say.

Bernie has the best favorability ratings among Dems. He also polls best on the question of who would you be satisfied as nominee. He polls ahead of every other candidate in head-to-head matchups. And he’s won the popular vote in all three contests so far.

Where’s the data to support the charge that he is “divisive”?

[hughee99]

175. Just look at the pages of the DU.

There are a whole lot of Dems who clearly don’t like him. To read some of these threads, it sounds like people are arguing that now is not the time to debate and disagree, it’s time to rally around a single candidate (their preferred candidate). The primary is SUPPOSED to be for having the sort of discussion that people are calling divisive. It’s a little disturbing how many people think the only difference between an honest discussion and a divisive argument is which candidate that argument supports.

[Gothmog]

173. Great post Nance

I have issues with sanders’ refusal to say how he will pay for his platform

Link to tweet

?s=20

[dalton99a]

211. If the GOP Congress refuses, he may have to ask Mexico

[zentrum]

174. Funny how Bernie

.....keeps expanding his base. Had more Latino voters in Nevada than any other Democrat.

Funny how culinary Union workers defied their union to vote for Bernie.

Guess all his supporters and the young future of the party just love divisiveness.

****

What's divisive is a billionaire buying the office at the last minute but, by all means, let's rage against the guy who has caucused with the Democrats for his entire time in Congress. How very divisive!

[samnsara]

176. thank you

[Walleye]

180. Maybe we would like him more if he didn't bad-mouth us all the time. Hate goes both ways.

[Act_of_Reparation]

181. No we cannot.

And this OP is a representative example of why that is.

[Paladin]

182. Bullseye, NanceGregg.

Thank you for articulating my apprehensions so well.

[gradmaster]

183. Thank you!

You have rationally articulated my thoughts since the the 2016 election! The only thing I would add is that just maybe Bernie has the support of so many young voters is because " free" sounds pretty good - until you begin having to pay for all the free stuff with taxes on a salary!

[in2herbs]

186. What I don't understand is this: we have a president who knows that

Russia helped him get elected in 2016 and is helping him get elected in 2020. Now we have Bernie, a presidential candidate, who 30 days ago was told that Russia was helping to get him to at least be the D nominee, and BS does the same thing rump was impeached for -- take Russia's help and keep quiet. I don't see the difference between the two candidates' behavior.

I would like to see all the other D candidates call BS out on this during the debates.

[KPN]

191. Apparently not. Is that what you call conversation?

I understand and also disagree with and find a number of your points disingenuous or of the “pot meet kettle” category. So where does that get us?

The fact is Sanders is leading right now because he has had more votes than other candidates. That is a real fact. Everything else is speculative and opinion. Are we not all entitled to our opinions? Or do you assume that ours are ignorant and not informed?

[oasis]

192. A perceived socialist/revolution ticket is a disaster for any party. nt

[Berniesbiggestfan]

193. OP could use a title change.

Let's have an honest conversation about Bernie," proceeds to do the opposite! Funny thread though for those that need a good laugh.

[Mersky]

200. Or you could take it as a set of criticisms to consider

In an effort to make your preferred candidate stronger. I think this OP is a fairly thoughtful rundown of weaknesses that need to be addressed. Performance in the primary is not the same as how he’ll do in the general election.

You’ll see I’m supporting Biden, but that doesn’t mean I’m not working to find as much mental flexibility, and dare I say, enthusiasm, as possible to sell Bernie as best I can if it comes down to it.

Dismissing these types of points or Bernie’s fanny-wagging tweet of a false equivalency between two starkly different parties isn’t going to make him a stronger candidate for energizing all Democrats for the GE.

I’m gonna journal Nance’s OP to reference, as I do think it’s helpful in my efforts. Also, helps to feel heard through a highly readable post.

That’s my opinion, and you’re certainly welcome to dismiss it out of hand as well.

Lemme also welcome you to DU:

[rzemanfl]

203. Interesting first post. You obviously don't know who you are mocking.

Good luck with that.

[McCamy Taylor]

194. But...but... Trumps loves him!

[wendyb-NC]

196. Thanks, NanceGreggs,

well said. You have put words to the unsettled feelings I keep getting about him, as our democratic candidate, for president in the G.E.
We need to find unity and allegiance as democratic voters, and other voters who are determined to vote the Dangerous, un-american, non president, out of the oval office, once and for all.

[Peacetrain]

202. Thank you Nancy

[mcar]

205. This x1000!

Unless you plan to go door-to-door and explain the difference to all of the voters who equate ‘socialism’ with USSR communism, you are not going to change their minds. They hear “socialist’, and they attach their own (albeit ill-informed) meaning to the term – and it’s NOT the style of government they will vote for.

[NNadir]

215. All of your posts are highly insightful, but this one...

...in particular stands out.

Thank for eloquently and patiently expressing, free of anger, how many of us feel.

[Jirel]

216. This is just another list of excuses.

Nearly every one of the remaining candidates is divisive in some way, real or in the minds of other candidates’ backers.

Bloomberg - not a Dem either in politics, past mayoral action, or behavior.
Warren - O! M! G! M4A! Free college! Oh, and forceful personality with ladyparts!
Biden - Endless dumb mistakes, touchy-feely, successful swift boating, foolishly believes he still lives in an era where the GOP might not try to overtly destroy anything that comes from a -D.
Buttigieg - Policy-lite, experience-lite, huge race relations problem.
Klobuchar - problematic prosecutorial history and a fake folksy demeanor wrapped around... what?

I’m backing Warren all the way, but if Bernie gets the nom, I have zero qualms. That’s the case for many Dems. Your assertion that this is problematic because some Dems won’t come around is the same problem for other candidates as well. The question is, whose backers are going to get out there and evangelize? Work tirelessly? Motivate others the most? Bernie’s are at the top of the list. Crossover voting from independents, Greens, and even non-Dump conservatives will be highest for him. Even more importantly, he has the youth vote. OUR last POTUS? Got there thanks to young folks, in part.

There is a medical principle that anything strong enough to help is strong enough to hurt. We will win only with a strong candidate that excites the base and voters who would otherwise stay home. That candidate will scare some people. Barack Obama was scary. That’s the first campaign in years of un-scary candidates that succeeded.

Yes, I’m calling baloney on the claim that no conservatives will back him. Sadly, I know a lot of people who fall in that camp. Though most are unfriended or muted at this point, quite a few would back Bernie. I know that seems to make no sense, but a lot of them are looking for a disruptor, not an ideologically pure conservative. Bernie’s platform appeals to their remaining brain cells and instincts for self-preservation. What’s truly ridiculous is that Warren’s positions are identical or similar in many areas, but they hate her. I guess a woman with brains is going that step too far. By the way, notice that lately the GOP has been running anti-Bernie social media. Now that he’s doing well, the party wants him out, not as an opponent. Because they tried to use him as a disruptor in 2016, they helped convince a bunch of their base that he’s a good guy. Now they’re fighting years of their own messaging.

I’m tired of the unfounded smear that the GOP wants Bernie to run because they have tons of oppo research on him. In 2 campaigns, if it existed it would be out there in some form. We hear the same smears and claims to have it from the Bloomberg campaign - and if it exists, Mike, put up or shut up. It’s ludicrous at this point. Bloomberg would be using it right now if it existed. Waiting is of 0 value to his campaign, and it’s 100% his style to smash an opponent - especially one that is beating him and likely to continue - with any opposition research he’s got.

Fundamentally, Bernie is a Dem candidate. He’s running on a Dem platform. His most ardent detractors are not making a case against him, but spewing the same baseless vitriol you accuse his backers of. Rather than trying to convince people away from him because he’s “divisive” (making a divisive argument clothed in concern-peddling about unity), have a real conversation about both unreasonable fear and hatred (OMG, it’ll be Nader all over again!!!) versus disagreement on the issues. You aren’t going to convince thinking people that a candidate is “too divisive” by sowing the division yourself.

[Progressive dog]

218. Thank you

It's tough for even his defenders to explain why Putin is working to get Bernie the nomination.

[subana]

222. good comment!!

Many Democrats resent his use of our party when it’s convenient for him, rather than being committed to the party full stop.

I resent him for only identifying as a democrat once every 4 years! I want someone at the top of our ticket who is an actual democrat & will support democratic issues after the election!! Every time after an election ends, Bernie goes back to being an independent. I know he says if he becomes the nominee or president that he will govern as a dem but there's no reason to believe he actually will do that!

The socialist label has never been a problem for me.

The fact that Bernie supporters alone push the idea that not supporting Bernie is a result of some unfounded ‘hatred’ – rather than a well thought-out preference for someone else – speaks for itself.

You don't have to hate a candidate simply because you don't like where they stand on the issues! That reminds me of the time when a journalist asked Pelosi why she hates Trump. She took issue with that comment & said she doesn't hate anyone. It's not about hate, it's about who is the best person to lead the party!

Bernie is divisive at a time when we need to be united – and that doesn’t bode well for beating Trump in November. If Bernie can’t unite Democrats, he won’t be uniting the country any time soon.

exactly! If our #1 goal is to kick Trump out of office, we can't afford to screw this up.

We need a candidate who offers viable solutions to the nation’s problems – NOT a candidate who is causing division among our own party members, while making pie-in-the-sky campaign promises that have zero chance of ever coming to fruition.

He loves to talk about the wonderful things his medicare for all plan offers but he has much less to say about how he will get it through congress or how to pay for it! Even his own state considered implementing that plan but they declined to do it. And if you can't pass a generous plan like that in Vermont, how are you going to do it nationally?

You need 60 votes in the Senate to pass any legislation so unless he's planning on electing 10 - 12 dem Senators, it has no chance even if Bernie is elected.

If by some miracle it does become law, what do you think republicans will do to it the next time they win the White House? After the ACA was passed, they voted countless times to try to repeal it. Donnie tried to do the same thing but it was too complicated to just get rid of so he decided to defund it. Bernie's plan seeks to eliminate health insurance completely. So what do you think will happen after Bernie has eliminated health insurance & a republican administration eliminates Bernie's plan? Then no one could afford to see a doctor!

And btw, it isn't really medicare for all anyway. Bernie's plan would not charge any cost to the people, govt would pay for all of it but that's not what medicare does. Medicare charges a yearly premium & it also does not pay for everything.

But ignoring the facts about his chances is political suicide.

The only sure way to give Trump another 4 yrs is to make Sanders the nominee!!

[llashram]

223. you are right

the "facts cannot be ignored". Yet sadly many will ignore to our detriment as a Party trying to defeat a tyrant and wannabe dictator.

[ananda]

226. Let's change that conversation ...

Bernie Sanders is the best candidate by far.

Why ... he speaks to what the vast majority
of people want and need.

If all the other Dems did the same, we would
not be having THIS conversation.

[judy]

227. Good points, though I love Bernie E. Warren is the one...

I have listened to him for years on Thom Hartmann, and have always admired his graciousness, focus on the questions asked and openness to any request from veterans when he was on the Veteran Committee. I have a lot of respect for him, and his integrity.

However, for this election, I support Elizabeth Warren. She is on the same page as Bernie, but has developed all the plans and the way it should be implemented, she is compassionate, witty (a good thing to be against Trump), and very strong. I just wish she was doing better, but it makes sense that corporate media wouldn't want to help her in any way.

Go Betsy!!!

[Baked Potato]

230. Bernie knows, like Trump, it doesn't matter what you can actually achieve,

what matters is promising people what they believe should happen. Truth is what people believe.

It’s identifying the audience and talking to them like you are one of them just plucked out randomly. People know Congress is the key, so they want a President in place who will fight for them in case Congress fights for them too.

[aikoaiko]

231. There are always legit reasons for some to want the frontrunner to NOT win.

We've certainly seen that in past Democratic primaries.

[Firebrand Gary]

234. So much truth here!

[Midnightwalk]

236. Insouciance is the word of the day

Thanks to recursion for reminding us of it

casual lack of concern; indifference.

Just read in another thread that the only people worried about bernie are pushing corporate positions. There are no valid concerns.

At least not until after the nomination when the lack of concise defenses against completely obvious attacks will really matter.

I made a joke a while ago about knowing the revolution wouldn’t be televised but not realizing that was because it wasn’t going to happen.

I think this election has turned from being a referendum on trump and some core Democratic party policies into a bet that this time the revolution really will happen.

God help us if we make that bet and lose.

[Harker]

240. Probably not.

There's a great deal of ego involved for many discussants.

[lagomorph777]

241. "Insisting that moderate Republicans will somehow come around..."

...and vote for any Democratic nominee is pure fantasy. There is actually no such beast as a moderate Republican. If a person is a Republican now, their values are the exact opposite of American values. They are lost souls and it is literally demoralizing (i.e. removing morals) to pander to them.

[Gobbierella]

244. We need new voters to win

I agree with you that trying to get "moderate" republicans is a waste of time. If we give up on that idea we need to get other voters from somewhere and Bernie seems able to do that. I was reading about his outreach into underserved Latino communities and that they're the ones who got him his huge win in Nevada. He has a real machine for getting those people out to vote and many of them have never voted before. I don't know if another candidate can turn those people out. If they can be mobilized in a general election that's the margin we need.

[lagomorph777]

245. +1 Something like 44 million left-leaning people sat out 2016.

Plenty of votes to harvest there, if we can give people a bit of hope.

[Harker]

249. If an added inducement beyond ousting Trumpsky is needed

we're in for a big one.

[Gobbierella]

263. If we're being honest

I think we need to acknowledge that the electorate is changing and someone is going to get the votes from the "new" Americans and the younger generation. I don't see anyone but Bernie exciting those potential voters. I know people say they're not reliable voters but isn't that just a self-fulfilling prophesy? How will we ever know if they're going to vote if we don't give them a candidate they can believe in?

[lagomorph777]

264. +1 Also we have to help them overcome suppression.

We've been around the block here; many of us could be very helpful on a local level.

[Gobbierella]

268. This is the grassroots we need

It's all well and good to have a national organization but it's the people in the trenches that are going to win this. Let's face it, Trump is an incumbent and he sucks all the oxygen out of the room just with his presence so we need a different tactic. If we can mobilize voters that no one else is trying to get and if we can get them to the polls we can win. To a certain extent that's what AOC did in her district. No one saw that coming and she did it with door-knocking and outreach to people who had never been asked tor a vote before. It's a strategy that needs to be considered.

[beerandjesus]

246. "Honest" (snort)

[PubliusEnigma]

251. Bernie's too good for the Democratic Party until he needs it for something.

[efhmc]

252. No, we can't. People get their posts deleted if he/she has an "honest" converation about Bernie.

[MosesYastrzemski]

253. I stopped coming to DU in 2015

When the anti-Bernie rhetoric became too much to stand. Up until then I thought I had found a place for true progressive new-deal Democrats to discuss politics with. Needless to say I was very disappointed. These attacks all boil down to fear. We elected Hillary over Bernie for fear that a non-moderate candidate would scare away potential moderate Republican voters. And we saw how that strategy played out. It's not going to work. Centrist Democratic candidates do not bring in moderate Republicans on election day. We need to stop trying to appeal to Republicans. We need a major shift to the left. That was the lesson to be learned from 2016, and it's a shame it hasn't sunk in yet.

This is a new day, a new politics. Kids are paying attention, and the 2020 election will see record turnout among people who don't usually vote if Bernie is our nominee.

For some context, I voted for the first time in my life at age 32, for Obama in 2008. I had never paid attention to politics up until then, and I couldn't tell you the difference between a Republican or a Democrat or left vs. right at the time. But I was aware of the horrors of the W administration, and felt passionate about what Obama was proposing, so I finally voted. Now I'm an avid supporter of the Democratic party, a donor even, and a political junkie. There are millions more out there, who like me, will vote if they are inspired. Bernie provides that inspiration, and he will bring them out to vote. Don't be afraid. This kind of change is good, and badly needed, and if he wins the nomination, I hope all the fearmongerers will realize they were fearmongering, and spreading hurtful propaganda against our nominee.

[Gobbierella]

270. Maybe it's time for a new tactic

I don't think the same old-same old is going to win this year. I'll support whoever the candidate is but I think it may be time to take the leap and finally sell the message that we're not republican light.

[Stuart G]

258. "Bernie is an extremely divisive figure in our party." We see this right here, right now.

[Lotus54]

259. Bernie's Followers

I respect the author's opinion of Bernie Sanders.
However, I do believe what she is expressing is base on her opinion and what may or may not happen during the General Election.

We may also ponder why the majority in the demographics according to Entrance Polls in Nevada favors Senator Bernie Sanders. There is nothing unusual about these polls because we've seen it before during the 2016 Primary Clinton vs Sanders.

Allow me to post a quote in which the majority of us are very familiar: " Walk a mile in someone else's shoes."

Walk with me on this route and think of yourselves as Bernie's followers and the harrowing conditions the majority of you are experiencing. Perhaps you are one of the generations ages 17-40's.

To have a decent job/profession you need a decent College Education. Being in the lower-middle-class family, you will more likely the one who has to pay for that college education. Depending on what you master in college, it will cost you anywhere around $100, 000 to 200,000 and more. This is just a start.
The minute you graduate, it isn't guaranteed you will get a decent job/profession to pay for your college debt.

To top it off, the Health Insurance you need to help you through has skyrocketed way up, the same as the cost of living expenses. You want to be out of your parent's house, but to have a place of your own, it will cost you big bucks. This is not even including your car payments and car insurance.

You need to work 2 jobs just to pay for bills and stay above water.

Wouldn't it make you angry, frustrated that this is happening to you with no end in sight?

The majority of the younger generations are in this predicament. The feeling of hopelessness and helplessness are there. No one is listening to their difficulties, their grave situation, except for Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren.

Do you see any other democratic politicians paying attention to these younger generations?

They seem to be more concerned about Bernie's democratic socialist agenda, than the grave plight of our next generation.

Is it any wonder why these kids are not listening to any of them?

These kids are our FUTURE!!!

[R B Garr]

260. Thank you!

K&R!

[IronLionZion]

261. All of that worked for Trump

[llmart]

265. Excellent post and I agree with you.

For those of us who have been around the block a time or two, we know that what you are saying is correct. I have been a lifelong Democrat since 1970 and I do not consider Bernie a Democrat. I resent the fact that he decides to "become" a Democrat when he wants to run for President and then if he loses, he's no longer a Democrat. That, to me, speaks of his not having a moral center, and for someone his age that's pretty pathetic. It's also cowardly.

He is divisive and that's the last thing our country needs right now.

[disndat]

267. It's the "down ballot votes, stupid!"

Because Sanders is controversial and divisive a Sanders win might mean the lost of the Senate or
House, or both.

[Warpy]

271. Not a chance. He's too polarizing here at DU

where small "c" conservatives still resent him for nearly taking the nomination away from H. Clinton.

Others are so wildly partisan they've got blinders on as to his faults and failures, whish he does have, purity being for plaster saints.

[Gothmog]

272. Florida Democratic Party disavows Sanders.

Link to tweet

[Cha]

300. Wow!

[trof]

273. 77, heart attack, no medical records, yells a lot

But if he gets it, I'll vote for him.
I say that about him and everyone who is or has been in the race.

[Perseus]

274. I would never dispute your honesty, but 1st time I dont agree w u

Anyway, I think its worth to everyone to read this DU post, and hopefully, end this Sanders or any other candidate basing.

[link:https://www.democraticunderground.com/1016248204|

[we can do it]

276. Thank you for this.

[BlueWI]

279. This OP is honest, maybe,

but it's not a conversation starter. It's a carbon copy of dozens of one-sided assessments of the Sanders campaign on DU.

[warmfeet]

280. Well, okay then.

If Bernie Sanders wins the nomination, and is the Democratic nominee on the ballot with the orange asshole, who are you voting for?

I will be voting for Bernie.

That is my honest conversation. What say you?

[NanceGreggs]

282. Why does this question ...

... keep coming up?

I - along with everyone else here - will vote for whoever runs against Trump.

Have you seen any posts from anyone saying, "If it's Bernie, I won't vote for him"?

[wyldwolf]

283. of course he/she hasn't. But he/she knows that in 2016...

... 1 out of ten Berners didn't vote for Hillary and they're afraid Berner will get the same treatment.

[tarheelsunc]

281. Bernie has made it clear throughout his political career that he hates my party.

If he is the nominee, I will support him, but I will pinch my nose while doing so. Meanwhile, I would enthusiastically support any other candidate outside of Steyer and Bloomberg.

[Skittles]

287. THANK YOU Nance

it is tiresome trying to reason with people who live in a bubble

[LiberalFighter]

288. My Responses in brackets and italics

Bernie is an extremely divisive figure in our party. Many Democrats resent his use of our party when it’s convenient for him, rather than being committed to the party full stop. And saying “but he votes with/caucuses with the Dems most of the time” doesn’t make him a Democrat, no matter how many times it's said.

[I don't care for him using resources paid for by all the various Democratic organizations and donors. The argument that he votes with/caucuses with Dems most of the time is a poor argument. That's like saying a dangerous dog is good most of the time.


Even when Bernie runs on the Democratic ticket, he attacks the party. That doesn’t exactly endear him to committed party members – especially in today’s political environment, when being a united party is key. By stating that “the Democratic establishment AND the Republican establishment can’t stop him”, he is being extremely divisive by putting himself out as someone who is actually running against BOTH parties, and not as someone who is running FOR the party that he is supposedly running on behalf of.

[That is the craziest thing for someone to say. If he doesn't get votes from the Republican or Democratic "establishment" he won't win. And if he attacks the party then he should had never even sought the Democratic nomination. ]

The constant cries about how being a “Democratic socialist” doesn’t mean he IS a communist-type socialist is a moot point. Unless you plan to go door-to-door and explain the difference to all of the voters who equate ‘socialism’ with USSR communism, you are not going to change their minds. They hear “socialist’, and they attach their own (albeit ill-informed) meaning to the term – and it’s NOT the style of government they will vote for.

[Yep! There is not enough time to go one on one with every voter on the meaning.]

I’ve seen this repeatedly on the sites I participate in where both Dems and Repubs post: “I don’t want Trump to be re-elected – but I’ll be damned if I’ll vote for a communist.” You can shout all you want about how these people don’t understand what socialism is, or how what Bernie is proposing isn’t socialism as they perceive it. But people vote according to what they believe, and not according to what you think they should believe.

[Same as before.]

It is also a fact that many Bernie supporters tend to be vitriolic towards those who disagree with them. We saw it in 2016, and we’re seeing it again now. You can blame it on Russian bots, or people pretending to be Bernie supporters all you want – but the fact remains that the vitriol is there, and it is as divisive as it is appalling.

[I've seen this type of response before in politics and another group. It is the result of not having enough information on the facts. It reminds me of Trump's supporters in 2016. And it demonstrated their lack of the real world. They are the type of people that think they know it all.]

Here on DU, we have been told repeatedly that those who aren’t in lockstep behind Bernie are “Bernie haters”. What is notable about that meme is that we don’t see any OPs here about Amy haters, Biden haters, Buttigieg haters, or Warren haters. The fact that Bernie supporters alone push the idea that not supporting Bernie is a result of some unfounded ‘hatred’ – rather than a well thought-out preference for someone else – speaks for itself.

[That we have taken time to research and talk about candidates. To understand the strengths and weaknesses of candidates. For some apparently find offensive because it includes their candidate.]

I have many “problems” with Bernie – and I have often stated them. But my biggest problem is the fact that so many Bernie supporters are simply ignoring the facts. Bernie is divisive at a time when we need to be united – and that doesn’t bode well for beating Trump in November. If Bernie can’t unite Democrats, he won’t be uniting the country any time soon.

[Or providing misinformation due to not confirming the facts. And the other facts being misused are the campaign strategy and organization.]

We know that most Democrats will vote for Bernie over Trump. But we need more than that. We need to persuade those who are disgruntled with Trump to see us as a viable alternative. We need a candidate who offers viable solutions to the nation’s problems – NOT a candidate who is causing division among our own party members, while making pie-in-the-sky campaign promises that have zero chance of ever coming to fruition.

[The truth is we need all Democrats and more to win. Attacking Democrats will not help. And attacking members that make up the DNC does not help either. Especially when many of them are the so called super-delegates. There was a time back in the 70's when there weren't super-delegates. And it was determined that one of the ways to get better support of the nominee was to get buy in from those DNC members. By putting them in the mix.]

We know that Trump, the Russians, and the GOP are dying to see Bernie as the Dem nominee. That’s not because – as many Bernie supporters keep saying – “they’re afraid of Bernie”. No, they’re not. They are promoting Bernie because they already know that defeating him will be an easy task. They started collecting the oppo-research in 2016 when it seemed possible he would be the Dem candidate – and they have now redoubled their effiorts to collect even more.

[Yep! They have a lot more oppo-research that will help defeat him. Even if Sanders was to win there is the issue of Democrats maintaining the House and gaining the Senate. Even if we maintain the House it doesn't do us any good as long as McConnell or any other Republican decides what happens in that chamber. And I don't see congressional campaigns clambering to have Sanders campaign for them. Especially, in tossups.]

I am only writing this to say that there are legitimate reasons for many of us not wanting Bernie to be the nominee – and insisting that “Bernie hatred” is the root of the problem is not only insulting and condescending, it is self-defeating.

[For those that have been around a while we look at this realistically. We consider the details and the facts.]

If you want to see Bernie as our 2020 candidate, that’s fine. But ignoring the facts about his chances is political suicide. Saying things like “everyone will eventually come around to supporting Bernie” is a pipe dream. Insisting that moderate Republicans will somehow come around to realizing that Bernie’s idea of socialism is not what they perceive it as is ludicrous.

[How many times have I heard that people will realize their mistake and reverse course or change their mind. Happens a lot in real life. It is a pipe dream. Expecting moderate Republicans to come on board is another one. There are three options for them. Not voting for either Trump or Sanders. Which means a net 1 vote for Sanders. Voting for Sanders creating a net advantage of a 2 vote advantage. But the more likely scenario would be holding their nose and voting for Trump again. The latter is more likely. Think of Susan Collins. She did so after making up an excuse to stay with him.]

In summary, my biggest problem with Bernie supporters is not that they lack a way to educate the populace about the facts – but instead keep insisting that the facts simply don’t exist.

[Ditto]

[LaMouffette]

292. Thanks, NanceGreggs!

I have the same concerns about Bernie. Even though I agree with him ideologically on pretty much everything (the wealth gap in the U.S. is obscene and amoral; there should be universal health care; post–high school education should be free; etc.), I don't think he can beat Trump. This is a time for pragmatism. We have to beat Trump. That is the only issue. Bernie has been labeled a socialist who is going to take away your private health care.

I voted for Bernie in the 2016 primary, and if he wins the nomination, I will absolutely vote for him in the general election, but I think Joe Biden has a better chance of beating Trump because of Joe's broader appeal. Bernie is raw oysters on the half shell (an acquired taste with a limited, but devoted, number of fans). Joe is gooey baked macaroni and cheese with a crunchy crumb topping (comfort food that appeals to a lot of people). And Trump? Trump is:the durian fruit, whose odor is, according to food writer Richard Sterling, "best described as . . . turpentine and onions, garnished with a gym sock."

[cheezmaka]

294. 53% of Americans will not vote for a Socialist

I'm going to vote blue no matter what. However, as Dems, is it worth voting for someone as the nominee at the RISK of losing the House and Senate and giving Trump 4 more years? The General Election is won by the moderates and independents... plain and simple. This will just be a repeat of 2016... Trumpism vs. Socialism. ...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/02/24/vote-bernie-elect-trump/

[Gothmog]

298. sanders' plan to pay for proposals does not add up

Link to tweet

[Cha]

299. Just as we thought. TY