LOL at the Cuba outrage-du-jour. Seriously.

[DanTex]

Now they're attacking Bernie for saying the exact same thing that Obama said. That's par for the course.

Thing is, and everyone knows this, in terms of foreign policy and human rights, Bernie is the best candidate in the field. One of the great ironies is that at the same time as the Cuba nonsense, Bernie is also being attacked for pointing out that Palestinians have human rights. And in terms of human rights abuses that US foreign policy has overlooked in places like Saudi Arabia or China, Bernie has been the most consistent critic. In stark contrast to, say, Bloomberg, who is going after Bernie the hardest on this, even to the extent of making up fake Bernie quotes and posting them to twitter.

So, yeah, another day, another hypocritical faux-outrage.

[TheCowsCameHome]

1. Obama was a real president. Let's not sling mud at him, OK?

Thanks, I know its tough sometimes.

[DanTex]

4. What mud? I'm not slinging mud at anyone.

Noting that Obama made the exact same point as Bernie isn't slinging mud. I'm fine with Obama's comments, as well as Bernie's.

[TheCowsCameHome]

6. Obama had nothing to do with Bernie's remarks.

I wish he could have run for 10 terms. Let's leave it at that.



Feel free to continue your cheerleading.

[ripcord]

22. Yes we have to leave facts out of all of our discussions

[5X]

27. Exactly

[lapucelle]

37. David Sirota is the one who left facts out of the conversation.

Here they are:

BS was talking about what he thinks Castro's revolution brought to Cuba in 1959.

President Obama was talking about the post 2014 strides that Cuba had made as part of the negotiated
pre-conditions for normalizing US-Cuba relations. Cuba had to meet benchmarks during the gradual process of moving towards normalization.

President Obama made the remarks at a joint press conference in Cuba in March 2016.

US presidential visit

President Obama arrived in Cuba for a three-day visit on March 20, 2016. Obama headed a delegation of between 800 and 1,200, including business people and congressional leaders who had helped in establishing the 2014 normalization deal.

Obama was the first sitting U.S. president to visit Cuba since Calvin Coolidge in 1928. Obama said that he would only visit Cuba if he could meet with Cuban dissidents: "If I go on a visit, then part of the deal is that I get to talk to everybody. I've made it very clear in my conversations directly with President Raúl Castro that we would continue to reach out to those who want to broaden the scope for, you know, free expression inside of Cuba."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_thaw

***************************************************************************************

David Sirota used an abruptly edited short clip in order mislead people. Here's the context that Sirota failed to provide. It's not the first time.

Remarks by President Obama and President Raul Castro of Cuba in a Joint Press Conference

Palace of the Revolution
Havana, Cuba
March 21, 2016

Our growing engagement with Cuba is guided by one overarching goal -- advancing the mutual interests of our two countries, including improving the lives of our people, both Cubans and Americans. That’s why I’m here.

I’ve said consistently, after more than five very difficult decades, the relationship between our governments will not be transformed overnight. We continue, as President Castro indicated, to have some very serious differences, including on democracy and human rights. And President Castro and I have had very frank and candid conversations on these subjects.

The United States recognizes progress that Cuba has made as a nation, its enormous achievements in education and in health care. And perhaps most importantly, I affirmed that Cuba’s destiny will not be decided by the United States or any other nation. Cuba is sovereign and, rightly, has great pride. And the future of Cuba will be decided by Cubans, not by anybody else.

At the same time, as we do wherever we go around the world, I made it clear that the United States will continue to speak up on behalf of democracy, including the right of the Cuban people to decide their own future. We’ll speak out on behalf of universal human rights, including freedom of speech, and assembly, and religion. Indeed, I look forward to meeting with and hearing from Cuban civil society leaders tomorrow.

https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/2016/03/21/remarks-president-obama-and-president-raul-castro-cuba-joint-press%20

It's disgusting the way Sirota continually tries to play the electorate for a fool and really sad that people keep falling for his dissembling.


David Sirota tending a sick child.

[Kurt V.]

28. 10 terms is kinda like a monarchy.

[corbettkroehler]

47. Nothing To Do? Let's Try That Again

Tell me that this statement by 44 had nothing to do with Sanders' comment.

Link to tweet

[Gothmog]

50. The sanders talking point on President Obama is simply false

Link to tweet

[SMC22307]

16. LOL How in God's name do you take that as slinging mud?

Obama seeking to normalize relations with Cuba = good?
Sanders seeking to normalize relations with Cuba = bad?

Seriously, people, get a grip.

PS Literacy programs are a GOOD thing.

[Crunchy Frog]

25. Was Obama running for president at the time?

Or was he an incumbent president carrying out foreign policy?

If Sanders becomes president I hope he normalizes relations with Cuba. I just don't want him saying things as a candidate that will diminish his chances at getting elected.

[SMC22307]

30. Obama was very careful with his words...

and Sanders needs to be more so. The history of Cuba is fascinating, complicated and he does need to be careful because the outrage machine -- from all directions -- is in high gear.

[Crunchy Frog]

31. Completely agree with that.

[SMC22307]

41. Look at that! People on a message board agreeing...

maybe there is hope.

[Gravitycollapse]

2. It feels like the 1950s in here.

I thought McCarthyism died long ago. But it lives on amongst those who claim to be progressive/leftist.

Strange times.

[bluewater]

3. +1000

[Happy Hoosier]

20. Ya Castro murdered a bunch of people, right? NT

[SMC22307]

42. So did many American presidents.

What's your point?

[TwilightZone]

55. One doesn't make the other OK.

Whataboutism is a little silly when the topic is killing people.

[SMC22307]

57. Who is suggesting that it is?

It's a statement of fact and when people start trashing Castro, perhaps they need to think long and hard about US foreign policy in Central and South America.

[uponit7771]

5. Obama did not defend Castro with needless "not all bad" deflection, this is false on its face. ...

... Sanders defended the man Obama defended the system that had some baby with the bath water.

[Gravitycollapse]

7. Truly a distinction without difference.

Don’t pull anything grasping at those straws.

[uponit7771]

15. Obama, "the economy doesn't work" is ***NOT*** praise of Castro. Good try though but we're

... sick of the Obama bashing.

[Gothmog]

51. you can always count on @JoeBiden to defend @BarackObama 's record and legacy.

Link to tweet

[DanTex]

8. "The system" in Cuba was Castro. He was a dictator. There wasn't any other "system."

The only difference is that Obama didn't say the word "Castro." The substance of their comments was identical.

[TheCowsCameHome]

13. "Now they're attacking Bernie for saying the exact same thing that Obama said"

Your exact words.

Now you're back pedaling.

[DanTex]

14. I'm not backpedaling. Obama and Bernie said exactly the same thing.

[TheCowsCameHome]

18. Nice attempt to sully the reputation of a great leader...

...and I don't mean Sanders.


Fail.

[uponit7771]

19. This is false on its face and gas lighting is disrespectful, praising the baby in the bath water is

... not the same as praising the father of the baby like Sanders did.

Castro was "all bad"

[sheshe2]

9. No he did not say the EXACT SAME THING.

That you come here and try to denigrate a highly respected President, one that you use to support is beyond the pale. You support a candidate that just for fun wanted to primary this popular President.

I am at a loss for words.

[Gravitycollapse]

11. Pearl clutching. Nothing more.

[DanTex]

12. I'm not denigrating Obama. I am supporting both Obama and Bernie.

They both made the entirely reasonable and factual point that Cuba, despite being led by a dictator, had some positive characteristics like education and healthcare. Obama and Bernie were right about that. They were also both right that Castro was a tyrant with horrible human rights abuses.

[sheshe2]

17. Yes you are and no you are not. nt

[Jake Stern]

10. Whats most galling is that a tweet from the Florida Democratic Party

intimates that Cuba under Bautista and Nicaragua under Samoza were "democracies"!

The outraged conveniently forget to mention the executions of opposition by Bautista and how he allowed the Mafia to establish itself in Cuba. How he bowed down to American planters and corporations. How he presided over what was, in effect, a modern serfdom.

They seem to overlook the brutality of Samoza's National Guard in torturing and killing leftists and indigenous people who were merely suspected of being anti-government and the contras who murdered Ben Linder who was in Nicaragua to help he people.

Here's those "democratic" Nicaraguan Guardsmen killing ABC journalist Bill Stewart. They then ordered the surviving press to say it was the Sandinistas who killed him.

WARNING: Graphic truth about the folks that people shitting all over Bernie are backhandedly defending.

[SMC22307]

38. I'm starting to get depressed. American voters don't seem to sweat...

any of this history. Even here on DU there's very little interest, but God forbid a "Bernie Bro" says something mean on Twitter.

[Jake Stern]

44. Because history is inconvenient to Bernie hating

They despise this man so much that they'll gladly go along with the bullshit mythology that pre-revolution Cuba was a haven of peace, prosperity and good human rights or that Nicaragua, pre-Sandanista, was a glorious paradise where shiny, happy people got along and everybody was safe and secure.

It's all bullshit and to see otherwise intelligent people buy into this is both disheartening and disgusting.

I lived in Florida for damn near 20 years and knew many of these "poor exiles" who liked to portray themselves as ragtag until you really get to know them and they get comfortable enough to complain bitterly how grandpa's cigar factories were nationalized. What they won't mention, however, is how grandpa kept the workers in debt slavery using tactics copied from American company towns.

Truth is the Bernie hatred at DU is so thick that they would shit all over the memory of Archbishop Oscar Romero and side with his killers if Bernie spoken fondly of him.

[SMC22307]

45. I work with a 50-something guy from a wealthy Nicaraguan family...

and have some idea of what you're talking about. They settled in Florida, are rabidly right-wing, and from what he shares with me, unbelievably bitter. Ronnie Raygun is God.

Thank you for your informative posts. It'll be interesting to see what happens to this site should Bernie win the nomination.

[chillfactor]

23. Do you live in Florida?

Are you of Cuban ancestry? I suspect you are not so what you have to say about the hubbub in Florida means nothing you have to say is relevant.

[USALiberal]

24. LOL, brilliant logic! nt

[HopeAgain]

26. Cuban voters

Have never broken Democratic. They elect people like Diaz-Balart, Desantis and Rubio.

[chillfactor]

32. Ah wrong!

I suggest you take a gander at this article...….you are full of hot air.


https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/11/09/how-latinos-voted-in-2018-midterms/

[HopeAgain]

34. Your obviously not from Florida

Cubans have not voted consistent with other Latinos. Article does not address that.

[chillfactor]

39. Do not be so lazy

articles all over the net and showing Cuban voters moving more and more to the left YEAH Cuban voters!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[TwilightZone]

53. They've been trending left for years.

45% were Democrats or Independents as of 2018

We probably shouldn't just write that 45% of them off.

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/politics/fl-ne-cuban-american-poll-20190131-story.html

[GemDigger]

29. No he did not.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1287576570

[lapucelle]

33. When are people going to learn not to trust David Sirota?

He posts abruptly edited, decontextualized short clips for a reason.

BS was talking about what he thinks Castro's revolution brought to Cuba in 1959.

President Obama was talking about the post 2014 strides that Cuba had made as part of the negotiated
pre-conditions for normalizing US-Cuba relations. Cuba had to meet benchmarks during the gradual process of moving towards normalization.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1287576570

David Sirota tending a sick child.

[DanTex]

35. LOL. It wasn't Sirota who made those comments, it was Obama.

[NurseJackie]

36. What other choice do you have?

Laugh it up. Hardy har har.

[brooklynite]

40. Who cares what our Florida Congresspeople think? What do THEY know??!!!

[SMC22307]

43. Hillary didn't carry Florida, why is Bernie expected to?

Or anyone with a "D" behind his or her name? Obama managed it twice but let's face it, none of our candidates are Obamas.

[Midnightwalk]

52. That argument confuses me

Gore lost florida too

Obama won his election. Winning Florida is a good thing isn’t it?

It just seems a strange point so maybe I’m missing something

I think he could have worded it better. More on praising the results and avoid Castro. There’s no reason to intentionally ( which i don’t think ) or unintentionally (what i think) antagonize Cuban Americans in Florida

[SMC22307]

58. Obama was careful in choosing his words...

Buttigieg reminds me of him in that regard -- very thoughtful, deliberate, etc. I agree that Sanders could have worded it better.

Winning Florida is a good thing, obviously, but I'm not getting my hopes up with our current candidates. Obama won twice, beating McCain by about 2.8% and then Romney by an even slimmer margin. Hillary couldn't manage it. Guess we'll find out March 17th which of our candidates will be facing Fat Nixon... then work like hell.

[TwilightZone]

54. Because it could be in play with the right candidate.

Biden is basically tied (+1) in the poll released last week.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/fl/florida_trump_vs_biden-6841.html

Sanders is tied, but may not be for long if there's a backlash.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/fl/florida_trump_vs_sanders-6842.html

Bloomberg is up +6, though I highly doubt he's going to be the nominee.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/fl/florida_trump_vs_bloomberg-7033.html

We probably shouldn't just write if off.

[SMC22307]

60. Why in the world would Bloomberg be up by 6?

Wealthy retirees from New York who have flooded the state? I'm not writing it off just yet, but it's going to be a battle.

[DanTex]

46. I'm thinking it's akin to the union leaders in Las Vegas attacking single payer.

Where leaders say certain things as part of political horse-trading, but rank-and-file voters are on a different page.

[corbettkroehler]

48. In Hysterics Myself

Obama said much the same but with none of the pearl clutching by the establishment.

Link to tweet

[Gothmog]

49. No, Bernie Sanders' Discussion of Cuba's Castro is Nothing Like Obama's

Link to tweet

Eric Levitz in New York Magazine on Monday makes the case that Bernie Sanders’ 1985 interview admiring some aspects of Fidel Castro’s regime in Cuba was roughly the same as Barack Obama’s 2016 discussion of Castro. This is in large part just an amplification of ideas flying around Twitter this week, as in the tweet pictured above. A quick look at Sanders’ and Obama’s statements shows why this analysis is entirely incorrect.

In 2016, Obama was addressing hundreds of young business and social entrepreneurs from across Latin America in Buenos Aires, Argentina. If you read the transcript of his talk, you see immediately that Obama, in his signature style, was reinforcing the message of pragmatism and evidence-based decision making — as he puts it “be[ing] practical and just choos[ing] from what works.” He was in fact arguing against ideology, at a time when he must have been watching the destabilizing effects the surge in ideological politics was causing not just in the United States but in other countries long considered staid and practical.

In discussing Cuba, Obama relayed direct conversations he had with the Castros, insight into the diplomacy of highlighting policy areas where there might be more agreement in order to create common ground with space to push for change in other areas. I doubt many would think it rational to approach a nascent foreign relationship with a guns blazing, take no prisoners attitude, especially when any agreement depended on the other country’s support. Obama was relaying one relatively high stakes conversation with foreign leaders to another unaligned audience in a foreign venue. I expect it does not take an expert in international relations to see the U.S. interest in pitching this information a certain way for both of these audiences.

In contrast, Bernie Sanders’ 1985 interview was not conducted for foreign consumption or to support U.S. national interests, and it did not come at a time of opening up in the U.S.-Cuba relationship. Instead, it was given for a local public access TV show. It was effectively a vanity project giving Sanders a platform to expound his views of politics and the world. Because of this, the messaging here is all Sanders. Further contrasting Obama, it was rooted in ideology, with Sanders opening, “As a socialist, the word socialism doesn’t frighten me,” before launching into his discussion of self-described socialist regimes. While you could argue the interview might not be a perfect snapshot of today’s presidential candidate’s innermost thoughts, it was a clear statement of what Sanders believed at the time and unfiltered by the degree of drafting and review Obama’s messaging on this topic would have undergone....

From this brief look, we can see that Obama’s talk involved a little flattery, a little spin, and a good deal of appealing to an audience that he saw as future leaders. In contrast, Sanders’ words were simply praise without an intentional objective towards a defined audience. Conflating these two discussions is flimsy, misleading, and indicative of the pro-regime propaganda captured in Sanders’ own sentiment.

[OliverQ]

56. America was literally propping up its own dictator in Cuba at the time.

We've been supporting dictators forever, yet somehow Bernie approving of the increased literacy in Cuba during Castro's time is the worst thing a candidate has ever said.

It's the most ridiculously overblown "scandal" I've ever seen.

[denem]

59. If nominated, Sanders has written off FL in the GE.

Everybody knows it. You can argue the merits of his position, but FL is gone.