No, Bernie Sanders' Discussion of Cuba's Castro is Nothing Like Obama's

[Gothmog]

Link to tweet

Eric Levitz in New York Magazine on Monday makes the case that Bernie Sanders’ 1985 interview admiring some aspects of Fidel Castro’s regime in Cuba was roughly the same as Barack Obama’s 2016 discussion of Castro. This is in large part just an amplification of ideas flying around Twitter this week, as in the tweet pictured above. A quick look at Sanders’ and Obama’s statements shows why this analysis is entirely incorrect.

In 2016, Obama was addressing hundreds of young business and social entrepreneurs from across Latin America in Buenos Aires, Argentina. If you read the transcript of his talk, you see immediately that Obama, in his signature style, was reinforcing the message of pragmatism and evidence-based decision making — as he puts it “be[ing] practical and just choos[ing] from what works.” He was in fact arguing against ideology, at a time when he must have been watching the destabilizing effects the surge in ideological politics was causing not just in the United States but in other countries long considered staid and practical.

In discussing Cuba, Obama relayed direct conversations he had with the Castros, insight into the diplomacy of highlighting policy areas where there might be more agreement in order to create common ground with space to push for change in other areas. I doubt many would think it rational to approach a nascent foreign relationship with a guns blazing, take no prisoners attitude, especially when any agreement depended on the other country’s support. Obama was relaying one relatively high stakes conversation with foreign leaders to another unaligned audience in a foreign venue. I expect it does not take an expert in international relations to see the U.S. interest in pitching this information a certain way for both of these audiences.

In contrast, Bernie Sanders’ 1985 interview was not conducted for foreign consumption or to support U.S. national interests, and it did not come at a time of opening up in the U.S.-Cuba relationship. Instead, it was given for a local public access TV show. It was effectively a vanity project giving Sanders a platform to expound his views of politics and the world. Because of this, the messaging here is all Sanders. Further contrasting Obama, it was rooted in ideology, with Sanders opening, “As a socialist, the word socialism doesn’t frighten me,” before launching into his discussion of self-described socialist regimes. While you could argue the interview might not be a perfect snapshot of today’s presidential candidate’s innermost thoughts, it was a clear statement of what Sanders believed at the time and unfiltered by the degree of drafting and review Obama’s messaging on this topic would have undergone....

From this brief look, we can see that Obama’s talk involved a little flattery, a little spin, and a good deal of appealing to an audience that he saw as future leaders. In contrast, Sanders’ words were simply praise without an intentional objective towards a defined audience. Conflating these two discussions is flimsy, misleading, and indicative of the pro-regime propaganda captured in Sanders’ own sentiment.

[uponit7771]

1. K&R

[Pacifist Patriot]

2. Thank you! The whataboutism ignoring context is nauseating.

[Gothmog]

3. This sanders' talking point was used on a number of threads.

[Gothmog]

4. you can always count on @JoeBiden to defend @BarackObama 's record and legacy.

Link to tweet

[Pacifist Patriot]

10. I'd be concerned if we couldn't.

[question everything]

5. BS from BS

[Cha]

6. I see too many repeating this..

BS was talking about what he thinks Castro's revolution brought to Cuba in 1959.

President Obama was talking about the post 2014 strides that Cuba had made as part of the negotiated
pre-conditions for normalizing US-Cuba relations. Cuba had to meet benchmarks during the gradual process of moving towards normalization.

President Obama made the remarks at a joint press conference in Cuba in March 2016.

https://upload.democraticunderground.com/1287576570

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

Mahalo for the additional tweet, Goth!

[Awsi Dooger]

7. In a general election Bernie Sanders would never be saved by comparisons to Obama

Seriously, is that the best he can do? The best his supporters can do? Unbelievably inept grasp of situational influence. Once that clip opens up in a general election setting Sanders has to address the points, minus deflective comparison. I don't think he grasps that at all. In fact, there were glimpses of it tonight when somehow Sanders thought that mentioning some bad votes by Biden was going to answer the question posed to him about the gun lobby. The audience jumped all over him, and properly so.

That moment and another similar one in which Sanders was caught off guard by the audience reaction were representative for the first time of what Sanders would face once it's no longer a primary setting.

[Cha]

8. "FYI- Castro's "literacy program" was an ideological indoctrination ploy"

[peggysue2]

9. Ana Navarro tweeted pretty much the same sentiment

She recently tweeted:

"I was in 2nd Grade when Sandinistas came to power in Nicaragua. They adopted Cuban education model. The books/curriculum taught ideological indoctrination. Children had to recite communist, revolutionary, anti-American slogans. That’s how communist teach people to read and write."

Oops.

Bernie let off a real stink bomb with this one. Doubling down hasn't helped either.

[DanTex]

11. No idea who this guy is but he's totally and obviously wrong.

Bernie and Obama said exactly the same things about Cuba, both positive and negative.

[ehrnst]

12. Nope. False.

BS was talking about what he thinks Castro's revolution brought to Cuba in 1959.

President Obama was talking about the post 2014 strides that Cuba had made as part of the negotiated pre-conditions for normalizing US-Cuba relations. Cuba had to meet benchmarks during the gradual process of moving towards normalization.

You're welcome!

[DanTex]

14. LOL. Right!

They both praise the exact same education and healthcare programs, which were in place far before 2014, and yet you're trying to claim that Obama was talking about something that started in 2014.

Good luck with that!

[ehrnst]

15. Nice try.

But no cigar.

See what I did there?



They weren't talking about the same thing or the same time frame. Bernie was talking about a 60's political indoctrination program in 1988, and Obama was talking about the progress that Cuba had made towards and agreement in 2014. Lol!

You're welcome!

[DanTex]

17. It's true though. And that's why Bernie is so far ahead in the polls.

Outside of the Bernie-hating bubble, nobody is going to believe that Cuba's educational programs began in 2014.

Best of luck!

[ehrnst]

18. And now we have a red herring fallacy...

When you can't really rebut the argument at hand.

Best of luck with that!

[DanTex]

19. Nope. Bernie is ahead in the polls. And the smears people try against him are nonsense.

Those two are not unrelated. As you've probably noticed.

[ehrnst]

20. A school of red herrings!

Desperation...

[DanTex]

21. LOL. "Desparation." Have you seen the polls? That's a serious question.

You really think people don't see through these anti-Bernie smears?

[ehrnst]

22. More frantic attempts at the red herring fallacy....

Frustrating when the person you're trying to wear down just won't SUBMIT and give up, isn't it?

[DanTex]

23. LOL at the GIFs. That must explain why the anti-Bernie people have been so successful....

[ehrnst]

24. The "anti-Bernie people"

Facts are your friends, not enemies, Hon. If they're your enemies, you're in trouble.

Not having any luck with repeated attempts to wear me down are making you frantic...

[redstateblues]

28. Smearing Bernie with his own words! Once again defending the indefensible

[DanTex]

29. On Cuba, Bernie's words and Obama's words are the same words. That's the point.

And like I said, this kind of thing is why Bernie keeps rising in the polls.

[redstateblues]

38. If Bernie is nominated FL is gone.

We were on track to barely win FL. Double down Bernie make it a landslide

[AncientGeezer]

43. Not remotely close...

[Gothmog]

36. Joe defended Barack Obama's honor. Biden, who rarely riles a crowd, was often greeted by cheers

Link to tweet

[oasis]

13. But, Trump ads in the G.E. will focus only on Bernie's praise of Castro.

The inclusion of Obama would only muddle their message.

[Gothmog]

25. It is sanders who is wrong for making crap up about President Obama

[DanTex]

26. Obama is on video saying the exact same thing as Bernie.

Nobody made anything up, it's all over the internet, and anyone without a severe anti-Bernie bias can just watch the two videos and see that they are making the same points, precisely about Cuba's education.

If you're ever wondering why Bernie surges in the polls as the attacks on him ramp up, this is a good example.

[Gothmog]

30. I loved the way that Joe Biden called sanders out for this misstatement

I also enjoyed the reaction of the crowd]

Link to tweet

[dlk]

34. Context matters

[fallout87]

32. Yes

But it helps the Bernie haters to post anything contrary to the actual truth. They said the same things, but the knives are out for Bernie.

[Gothmog]

48. This makes me smile

Link to tweet

?s=20

[mcar]

16. Kick

[ProgressDiv]

27. Wow, so basically you are saying that the difference between the two statements...

... is that Obama was lying in the service of U.S. national interests and that Sanders was speaking truth to power (given that "national interests" in 1985 were defined by Ronald Reagan, and involved financing a terror campaign against the citizens of Central America).

[redqueen]

39. Would be interesting to see a response to this. nt

[TCJ70]

31. I'm still not going to be upset about increases in literacy. n/t

[AncientGeezer]

42. How about the political prisoners....cool with their plight?

Please don't say you don't know about the Castro regime political prisoners.

[TCJ70]

44. No. And neither was Sanders if you listen to everything he said...

...in the interview.

[AncientGeezer]

46. That's my point..I DID listen to him.....in many interviews...going back years

[dlk]

33. Nuance escapes many voters

They’ve been subjected to false equivalencies for too long. Too often, Bernie has been all about Bernie.

[rusty quoin]

35. I gotta hand it to Putin, he really knows what he's doing.

[Gothmog]

37. Why Bernie Sanders's repeating Cuban propaganda rankles so many Latinos

sanders praise of Cuba is pissing off an important segment of voters https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/02/25/why-bernie-sanderss-repeating-cuban-propaganda-rankles-so-many-latinos/

The first thing to grasp is that Cuba’s global reputation for having an excellent education system isn’t a result of the quality of its education system. As scholars have long known, Cuba’s overall educational performance is middling for the region: roughly similar to that of many other Latin American countries that brought their literacy rates from round-about 75 percent in the 1950s to not-far-from 100 percent today.

Yes, Cuba made education available free to everyone through the university level. But so did countries such as Argentina, Ecuador, Uruguay and Mexico. There was never any need to build a police state to bring people to school — an insight so obvious, it’s ludicrous to even have to write it.

In reality, Cuba’s reputation for educational prowess is mostly a product of a relentless, multi-decade propaganda campaign. Virtually every speech by every Cuban diplomat and regime admirer for the past seven decades has made a point of praising Cuba’s supposed literacy miracle. Cubans who have left know the propaganda only too well, and understand why a government desperate to establish its legitimacy in the face of the mass impoverishment of its population would turn to it again and again.

To Cubans and Venezuelans — who have witnessed much the same kind of propaganda — talk of Cuban educational prowess grates not because it’s wrong, exactly, but because it serves as a simple way to identify who’s ready to be duped by regime apologists. We know propaganda doesn’t need to be entirely false to be profoundly damaging. So we despair when we hear it parroted by those who ought to know better.

The bottom line is that when you associate yourself with an ideology whose past contains some of history’s worst crimes, you take on a special duty to denounce. When those denunciations come hedged with qualifiers that rest on propaganda lines, they ring entirely hollow.

[redqueen]

40. So the US funding coups and terrorists aren't "some of history's worst crimes"?

People are sick of the whitewashing.

[Cha]

47. TY!

[Gothmog]

41. Havana gives front-page coverage to Bernie Sanders for praising Fidel Castro

Link to tweet

Presidential candidate Bernie Sanders views on the Cuban revolution have earned him a storm of criticism in the U.S. But there’s one place where his comments have received glowing, front-page reviews: Cuba.

Granma, the Communist Party newspaper, prominently displayed a report about Sanders and his praise of “some of the social programs implemented by the historic leader of the Cuban Revolution Fidel Castro.”

“U.S. Senator Bernie Sanders, today one of the strongest candidates for the nomination of the Democratic Party to the November presidential elections, recognized Cuba’s role in sending doctors worldwide,” Granma said.

Read more here: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/article240626672.html#storylink=cpy

[Cha]

45. K