We should definitely break the rules to make some people feel better about the primary

[Eko]

so that they will vote for the Democratic candidate in the GE. As a matter of fact we should just forget all the rules so that the front-runner wins now to make them feel even better. Why even bother with the rest of it if we are going to break the rules in the end so that persons followers will vote Democratic? Rules smhules.
Do I really need to add it? I guess I do.

[msongs]

1. some people who helped write the rules don't want to follow their own rules. hmmm

[DanTex]

2. Who ever said anything about breaking rules?

[relayerbob]

3. Then 50%+1 is good for you

Thanks! Seriously, not sarcastic and hoping you mean it. I wish we were hearing that from others

[DanTex]

4. I think whoever gets the most votes should be the nominee.

If it's not a majority, then on the second ballot, the delegates and supers should do the right thing and respect the will of the voters.

That doesn't require breaking the rules. It only requires the delegates to make the right decision, and not hand the election to Trump by tearing the party apart.

[brooklynite]

37. If a candidate didn't get 51% of the delegates, that means....

....that the most delegates representing the most voters want someone else. And if a majority of the delegates decide that another candidate is a better choice, that seems very representative to me.

[DanTex]

42. Yeah, problem is, nobody actually believes that roundabout logic.

If the superdelegates give the nomination to someone who didn't get the most votes/pledged delegates, then the party will fracture, and we will lose to Trump. Whether it "seems very representative" to you isn't going to change the fact that it is obviously undemocratic.

[Blue_true]

46. So if Biden or Bloomberg come to the convention with the largest

number of pledged delegates, you just said that person should be the nominee and you will support him 100%.

Hey, I used YOUR words.

[DanTex]

51. Yes. And I will support the nominee 100% no matter who it is. Blue no matter who.

[Blue_true]

54. Good. nt

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

58. Seriously... forget Democracy. Unreal!!

Bernie/Elizabeth or Elizabeth/Bernie 2020!!
Either way, they're stronger together & can't be bought!!
Jump on the Bernie Bandwagon & join The Revolution!!

[DanTex]

59. Right? How is this complicated? You get the most votes, you win!

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

72. Wasn't that the concept of doing away with the Electoral College?! What happened to THAT?!

Oh, I forgot, this is different... counting votes helps Bernie. Nevermind!!


Bernie/Elizabeth or Elizabeth/Bernie 2020!!
Either way, they're stronger together & can't be bought!!
Jump on the Bernie Bandwagon & join The Revolution!!

[Eko]

5. Here you go.

If No Candidate Earns A Majority Of Delegates, How Should A Nominee Be Chosen? | NBC News

[DanTex]

6. Nobody suggested breaking any rules...

[Eko]

10. Hm.

There is a very good chance none of you are going to have enough delegates,,, if that happens,,, should the person with the most delegates at the end of the primary season be the nominee even if they are short of a majority?

Sanders: Well the process includes 500 super delegates on the second ballot. So I think the will of the people should prevail yes, the person who has the most votes becomes the nominee.

[DanTex]

12. That's got nothing to do with breaking the rules.

He's just saying that, on a second ballot, the delegates should vote for whoever got the most votes. That doesn't require breaking any rules. It just requires that the delegates and superdelegates respect the democratic will of the electorate.

And he's right. Because if that doesn't happen, the party will fracture and Trump will win re-election.

[Eko]

13. But that is not what the rules say is it?

[DanTex]

15. Yes, it is completely within the rules. No idea what you are talking about.

[Eko]

19. He said that the person

with the most votes becomes the nominee. If the super-delegates are free to vote as they want then they can vote for someone other than the person with the most votes, Sanders thinks that is wrong and that they should vote for the person with the most votes.

[DanTex]

23. Yes, he thinks the superdelegates should choose the person who got the most votes.

So does everyone else who respects democracy. It's got nothing to do with changing the rules.

What is the confusion?

[Eko]

27. You can stop with the "everyone who respects democracy".

And you are correct, "He thinks the superdelegates should choose the person who got the most votes" and not who they want to as is their right under the rules.

[DanTex]

29. That's exactly what it is. Democracy. Respecting the will of the electorate.

How do you know that the superdelegates don't want to respect the will of the electorate?

Of course the superdelegates can vote for whoever they want. Nobody is denying that.

[Eko]

36. Its called a Representative Democracy for a reason.

How do you know they will? According to Sanders it would be wrong of them not to.

[DanTex]

38. Superdelegates are not voted on by the people. That's the whole problem.

And I have no idea what they will do. I hope they respect the will of the people, because if they don't, we will have a problem in November because the party will be fractured. And, yes, it would be undemocratic of them not to.

But you are right, they can do whatever they want. Nobody is denying that.

[mtron32]

35. It's their right

It's also the right of the people to stay home in November. If his supporters think the DNC fucked them again then at that point, let it be.

[Eko]

32. Is that your version of Democracy?

You are free to vote for who you want but you have to vote for our guy? If not we will destroy the party? Really?

[DanTex]

52. My version of democracy is that whoever gets the most votes should be the nominee.

Nobody "has to" do anything. The superdelegates can vote for whoever they want. If they wanted, they could vote for Rush Limbaugh to be the Democratic nominee.

I think that would a horrible idea, though. I think they should respect the will of the electorate.

[Zeus69]

47. The "super" delegates are unpledged

Why shouldn't they each choose their preferred candidate? That's their prerogative under the rules.

Otherwise, we wouldn't have 760 (or so) individuals. We'd have a 760 point "bonus" automatically given to the nominee who comes to the convention with the lead...

[DanTex]

50. Yes, and they can totally ignore the will of the voters if they want.

That doesn't mean they should. "Can" and "should" are different things.

[Blue_true]

53. DanTex is saying that if Bloomberg or Biden come to the convention with one

having the largest number of pledged delegates in the field, we should just call the convention and give that person the nomination, no questions asked. It will be funny watching the BS Gymnastics in the event either Biden or Bloomberg has the most pledged delegates with the primary over. I suspect that if that happens, we will see another rules interpretation from one specific candidate.

[showblue22]

16. It requires a rules change

It requires supers to NOT vote who they want but vote for the one with a plurality. It cancels out superDelegates power. It's a change of the current rules

[DanTex]

17. Huh? No it doesn't. The superdelegates, under the current rules, can vote for whoever they want.

Bernie, and anyone else who cares about democracy, thinks they should vote for whoever has the most pledged delegates. That doesn't require a rule chance. It just requires that the superdelegates act in a democratic manner.

[showblue22]

18. The Rules are they can vote for who they wish

I happen to think it is democratic. What is NOT democratic is telling them who they have to vote for.

[DanTex]

20. Exactly. It doesn't require a rules change for them to vote for whoever has the most

pledged delegates. It just requires them to demonstrate respect for democracy and the will of the Democratic electorate.

We'll see if they do. If not, then we likely have four more years of Trump to look forward to, because it would shatter the party.

[showblue22]

24. I think we get 4 more nominating Bernie anyway.

[DanTex]

26. Well, most Dems disagree with you, but you are welcome to your opinion.

[HopeAgain]

60. They appear willing to take that chance

As well as chase away the young liberals maybe forever.

[Happy Hoosier]

28. But what you ARE suggesting...

Is for the semond ballot to be a mere formality. That might not technically violate the rules, but it’s really a distinction without a difference.

[DanTex]

33. Yes, I think the superdelegates should respect the will of the voters.

Without a rule change. Nobody is talking about any rule change.

I, and Bernie, are talking about respecting democracy *within the current rules*. The superdelegates aren't required to respect the democratic will, but hopefully they will. We'll see.

[lapucelle]

9. BS...

How to Win the Democratic Nomination, and Why It Could Get Complicated

Bernie Sanders says winning a plurality of delegates is good enough for the nomination. His rivals say a majority is needed. What does that mean? And why are superdelegates coming up again?

The last question at Wednesday night’s Democratic debate covered much wonkier territory than the fiery exchanges that preceded it. But it exposed a rift over what could become an extremely relevant topic: how the party’s presidential nominee should be chosen.

“There’s a very good chance none of you are going to have enough delegates to the Democratic National Convention to clinch this nomination,” the moderator Chuck Todd told the candidates. “Should the person with the most delegates at the end of this primary season be the nominee even if they are short of a majority?"

snip===================================================================

Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont was the only candidate to agree that, in his words, “the person with the most votes” should get the nomination. This was not surprising given that he is currently the front-runner and — at least at the moment — appears to be the candidate most likely to win a plurality, but perhaps not a majority, of pledged delegates.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/22/us/politics/democratic-primary-dnc-superdelegates.html

The rest of the candidates said some version of “No, let the process work” or “Play by the rules.” In other words, a candidate should still be required to win a majority of delegates to earn the nomination.

snip===================================================================

How to win the Democratic nomination, the easy way

To win the Democratic nomination for president, a candidate needs the support of a majority of delegates eligible to vote on a given ballot at the party’s national convention in Milwaukee in July.

snip=================================================================

What happens if no one gets a majority?

If no one gets 1,991 votes on the first ballot, then things could get more complicated. This is the scenario people refer to when they use the phrase “contested convention” or “brokered convention.”

In this situation, there would be a second ballot.

[DanTex]

14. Huh? Where does he say anything about breaking rules?

The point is, Bernie, and anyone else with the slightest interest in democracy, thinks that the delegates, on a second ballot, should nominate whoever got the most votes. That doesn't require breaking or changing any rules.

It just requires that the people carrying out the rules, the delegates and superdelegates, have respect for democracy.

[lapucelle]

22. Huh? 1. Chuck Todd asked "Should the person with the most delegates

at the end of this primary season be the nominee even if they are short of a majority?"


2. BS raised his hand.

Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont was the only candidate to agree that, in his words, “the person with the most votes” should get the nomination.

3. Party rules state that a candidate needs a majority of the delegates to win the nomination in any givren ballot, including the first.

To win the Democratic nomination for president, a candidate needs the support of a majority of delegates eligible to vote on a given ballot at the party’s national convention in Milwaukee in July.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/22/us/politics/democratic-primary-dnc-superdelegates.html

[DanTex]

25. That doesn't require a rule change. It just requires superdelegates to choose the person

who got the most votes.

I have no idea where this "rules change" talking point comes from.

[lapucelle]

31. The question explicitly said "at the end of the primary season",

not "at the convention on the second ballot".

The end of the primary season is in early June. The convention is in mid July.

[DanTex]

34. LOL. So the timing is the thing? That's where you get the idea that he is proposing a rule change?

[lapucelle]

48. I didn't use the expession "changing the rules". I responded to your question

about "breaking the rules".

*******************************************************************************************



*******************************************************************************************

[DanTex]

49. Right, there's no breaking the rules or changing the rules, or anything.

It's just a question of whether the superdelegates are going to respect the democratic will of the voters.

Not very complicated. Either the go with the candidate that the voters want, or they go with someone else.

[lapucelle]

61. Sigh. It would be breaking the rules to declare a candidate the nominee

at the end of the primary season before any delegates had even voted at the convention simply because the candidate has more delegates than the other contenders. That's what BS said he wants to do.

[DanTex]

62. Sigh. Nobody said anything about "before any delegates had even voted".

Bernie simply wants the delegates and supers to respect the will of the electorate, and nominate the person with the most votes from actual voters.

It's really, really, simple.

[lapucelle]

63. It was part of Chuck Todd's question.

“Should the person with the most delegates at the end of this primary season be the nominee even if they are short of a majority"?

Everyone on the debate stage clearly indicated that he or she thought it was important to play by the rules, except for BS.

[DanTex]

64. LOL. So where's the part about breaking the rules?

Oh, yeah, it's not there. Because Bernie said nothing about breaking any rules. He just thinks that the person who gets the most votes should end up being the nominee. It's got nothing to do with the timing of the convention with respect to the end of the primaries.

It's not complicated. Bernie thinks that the superdelegates should respect the will of the electorate. As does everyone else who believes in the principle of democracy.

[lapucelle]

65. Right here.

“Should the person with the most delegates at the end of this primary season be the nominee even if they are short of a majority?

The DNC rule
To win the Democratic nomination for president, a candidate needs the votes of a majority of delegates eligible to vote

Anyone who is having trouble understanding the difference between "most, but short of a majority" and "the majority" needs to think a bit more about the distinctions between "not the majority" and "the majority".

[DanTex]

66. Sigh. On a second ballot, the delegates can vote for anyone they want.

It's not "breaking the rules" for the delegates to vote for the person who gets the most pledged delegates.

Seriously...

[lapucelle]

68. Anyone who doesn't understand

the difference between "the most delegates" and "the majority of the delegates" might want to do a little thinking about exactly what those terms mean.

This time, Bernie Sanders 'rigged' the system against himself

Analysis: As the Democratic front-runner claims that a plurality of delegates should give him the nomination, his own actions come back to haunt him.

Sanders and his allies want Democrats to ignore the rules he helped rewrite and coronate him at the party's convention this summer if he arrives with a plurality — but not a majority — of delegates.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/time-bernie-sanders-rigged-system-against-himself-n1144361

[DanTex]

69. Yeah, that's perfectly clear. It's just the sheer absurdity of claiming that Bernie somehow wanted

break the rules that has me laughing.

Because it's such a simple concept. Whoever gets the most votes should win the nomination. Who knew people would go to such lengths to pretend not to understand it!

[lapucelle]

70. I'm never surprised by the "pretend not to understand" tactic.

I heard someone earlier today pretending that a letter from a doctor is the same thing as medical records.

[DanTex]

71. Weird, right? And yeah, the people falsely claiming Bernie didn't release medical records,

that's also odd. I wonder if they think anyone will believe them, when his health records are on the internet for anyone to look up? Strange, the world of Bernie-bashing, but it is what it is!

[lapucelle]

40. It's too late to change the rules

and the rules say that the candidate with the majority of delegates wins the nomination.

How to win the Democratic nomination, the easy way

To win the Democratic nomination for president, a candidate needs the support of a majority of delegates eligible to vote on a given ballot at the party’s national convention in Milwaukee in July.

There are a total of 3,979 pledged delegates (who are actual people) eligible to vote on what is known as the first ballot. These delegates are allocated to candidates based on the results of caucus and primary contests in the states. The formulas that determine how those results are translated into delegates won can be complicated, but in general, a candidate must get 15 percent support to be eligible to receive delegates.


Half of 3,979 is 1,989.5. Democratic National Committee officials say that on the first ballot, a candidate must win one delegate more than that, or 1,990.5, which is rounded up to reach the magic number: 1,991. (If a candidate won 1,990 pledged delegates on the first ballot, D.N.C. officials say, that would not be sufficient.)

So, in summary, the quickest and least complicated way to win the nomination is for a candidate to secure 1,991 pledged delegates on the first ballot at the Democratic National Convention in July.

snip===================================================================

What happens if no one gets a majority?

If no one gets 1,991 votes on the first ballot, then things could get more complicated. This is the scenario people refer to when they use the phrase “contested convention” or “brokered convention.”

In this situation, there would be a second ballot. And on the second ballot, there are votes from two sets of delegates:

- Votes from the 3,979 pledged delegates, who are allowed to support a different candidate on the second ballot if they so choose

- An additional 771 votes from “automatic delegates,” commonly known as superdelegates

To win the nomination, a candidate still must earn a majority of the votes on a given ballot. In this case, that means she or he must amass more than 2,375 pledged and automatic delegates.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/22/us/politics/democratic-primary-dnc-superdelegates.html

[DanTex]

43. Correct. The rules won't be changed, and nobody wants to change them.

If nobody gets a majority, it will be up to the delegates and supers to decide whether to respect the democratic will of the electorate, or to hand the nomination in an undemocratic way to someone who got less votes.

And if they go down the second path, it will be hard to defeat Trump, because it will destroy party unity.

But you are absolutely right that they have the choice to do that, by the rules.

[lapucelle]

56. You're the one who brought up "changing the rules". Everyone else here is discussing

a candidate who affirmed that he would be in favor of "breaking the rules".

BS said the person with the most delegates at the end of the primary season should be declared the winner before the convention even begins. That would be breaking the rules.

[DanTex]

57. OK, "breaking the rules" if you prefer.

Bernie didn't advocate breaking any rules. He's saying that the superdelegates should respect the will of the electorate. He never said anything about "before the convention even begins", you just made that up.

He's just saying that whoever gets the most votes should be the nominee. It's a very simple concept. Democracy.

[TwilightZone]

45. It doesn't necessarily require superdelegates.

That's just an assumption you keep making, but it's entirely possible that one could get a majority of the delegates with superdelegates not even being a factor. Because math.

3979 pledged delegates, 1990 required for majority.

Say Bernie comes in with 30%: 1194
Delegates supporting other candidates, the other 70%: 2785.

Now, let's says that all the other candidates but one drop out and 15% of the total go to Bernie and the rest rally behind candidate two, so it's now 45/55. Just an example.

Sanders: 1791
Candidate two: 2188 - majority with zero superdelegates. Nomination won.

There are all kinds of possibilities like that. You seem to think this is some kind of binary exercise, but it's not. In the above scenario, there's really no reason at all why it should be assumed that the rest of the delegates go to Sanders when others drop out. He wasn't their first choice and the rules allow them to make a second. They shouldn't be forced to Sanders just because you think so.

Bonus question: in the above hypothetical scenario, who should the SDs vote for? The person with the most delegates?

[DanTex]

55. True. The pledged delegates should also respect the will of the voters on the second ballot.

It's not complicated. Whoever gets the most votes should be the nominee. I have no idea why this is controversial.

[Cha]

7. For some ya don't.. Thank you, Eko!

[OliverQ]

8. Giving the win to someone else if Bernie has the most delegates

will completely destroy the Democratic party and guarantee a Trump win. One of the Super delegates trying to stop Bernie is a top GOP Donor and Healthcare lobbyist who is opposed to universal healthcare.

[ripcord]

11. Remember that next time we lose an election due the the Electoral College.

[showblue22]

21. We'l complain but we know we can't change the rules mid game.

[TwilightZone]

30. Everyone knows that the EC winner wins the presidency.

Just like everyone should know that the delegate majority holder wins the nomination.

We don't have to like either one, but that doesn't change anything. The difference is that no one is likely to throw a tantrum and stay home on election day because they don't like the EC.

[Codeine]

39. We may not like it

but we know that’s the system going in. If we want a different system we need to institute it in advance.

[H2O Man]

41. Recommended.

In one paragraph, you have done a great job of illustrating much of the frustration that people on both sides of this potential divide. I take no position on the issue, though I think that there are people on both sides that make good points. And some that make not-so-good points. You communicated your points very well. Thank you for that.

[Eko]

44. Thanks H2O.

I appreciate the input and the kindness.

[Cha]

73. K