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Joe BidenCongratulations to our presumptive Democratic nominee, Joe Biden!

Sun Apr 5, 2020, 11:17 AM

 

The 'Identity Politics' Featured In Our Primary, Ladies And Gentlemen

One common phrase emerging from the comments of people supporting Sanders runs approximately thus 'bernie stands for liberal, progressive values.'

The usage is intriguing, and points like a searchlight to something people need to understand.

Both 'Bernie' and his most devoted supporters are more concerned with the identity they present, to themselves and to others, than anything else.

Even leaving aside the fact that most of those goals Sanders 'stands for' are general among Democratic voters and enjoy broad support among Democratic office-holders and Party officials, virtually no one, not even among Sanders' supporters, honestly thinks he can actually achieve them should he come to hold the highest office in the land. He is expected simply to stand up for them. No one really expects more of Sanders than that.

Expressions of support for Sanders are made as a marker of political orientation. Expressing support for Sanders says 'I'm not a moderate, I'm well to the left of most people', and as with most such things, serves to identify a 'cool' group separate from the general run of 'squares'. People doing this do not even particularly want to prevail, in the sense of being in the majority. It is axiomatic that a majority can never be 'cool', the feeling of being 'hip' and part of an 'in-crowd' depends on being outnumbered by the host of the unwashed and unenlightened. The point is not to achieve any political goal, to secure any discrete reform, it is simply to be sure one is perceived as a particular, and special, kind of person.

People who have a genuine interest in achieving the goals widespread among Democrats, the goals of all left and progressive and liberal persons in general, recognize readily Sanders is far too flawed as a politician, and as a personality, to make any progress towards their goals. They know Sanders has not achieved any measurable advance towards them in his long Congressional career. They know Sanders' claim to hold patents and copyrights on these goals is nonesense, because they know their own desires pre-date Sanders, and exist in their hearts and minds without the slightest reference to him or influence by him.

In short, while Sanders imagines himself to be the indispensable man, an overwhelming majority of Democratic voters are clear in their minds that Sanders is quite dispensable, and are determined to see him disposed of, as soon as possible.





"From Bernie’s perspective, dropping out of a race once you have no chance of winning is peculiar behavior that can only be explained by the work of a hidden hand. For most politicians, though, it is actually standard operating procedure. Only Sanders seems to think the normal thing to do once voters have made clear they don’t want to nominate you is to continue campaigning anyway."





"When things are not called by their right names, what is said cannot make sense. When what is said does not make sense, what is planned cannot succeed. When plans do not succeed, people become uneasy. When people are uneasy, punishments do not fit crimes. When punishments do not fit crimes, people cannot know where to put hand or foot."
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Arrow 36 replies Author Time Post
Reply The 'Identity Politics' Featured In Our Primary, Ladies And Gentlemen (Original post)
The Magistrate Apr 2020 OP
George II Apr 2020 #1
Cha Apr 2020 #34
Demsrule86 Apr 2020 #2
PatSeg Apr 2020 #9
The Magistrate Apr 2020 #30
PatSeg Apr 2020 #32
philly_bob Apr 2020 #3
William769 Apr 2020 #5
The Magistrate Apr 2020 #8
PatSeg Apr 2020 #11
philly_bob Apr 2020 #33
The Magistrate Apr 2020 #35
William769 Apr 2020 #4
MineralMan Apr 2020 #6
betsuni Apr 2020 #7
ismnotwasm Apr 2020 #10
PatSeg Apr 2020 #12
ismnotwasm Apr 2020 #14
The Magistrate Apr 2020 #15
ismnotwasm Apr 2020 #20
PatSeg Apr 2020 #19
ismnotwasm Apr 2020 #23
George II Apr 2020 #24
ismnotwasm Apr 2020 #25
treestar Apr 2020 #13
Mc Mike Apr 2020 #16
The Magistrate Apr 2020 #17
The Velveteen Ocelot Apr 2020 #18
The Magistrate Apr 2020 #36
LostOne4Ever Apr 2020 #21
The Magistrate Apr 2020 #26
LostOne4Ever Apr 2020 #27
mcar Apr 2020 #22
The Magistrate Apr 2020 #31
BidenBacker Apr 2020 #28
BidenBacker Apr 2020 #29

Response to The Magistrate (Original post)

Sun Apr 5, 2020, 11:26 AM

1. I like to remind people that the root of the word "progressive" is "progress". Without that....

 

.....we can just toss "ive" in the trash.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to George II (Reply #1)

Sun Apr 5, 2020, 04:38 PM

34. Thank you, George.. that's been exactly

 

my point over the years. As in President Obama was progressive.. he made such good progress from the abyss bush-cheney left us in.

But did those throwing pot shots appreciate anything?.. no.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Response to The Magistrate (Original post)

Sun Apr 5, 2020, 11:36 AM

2. Excellent...well done. Glad you made this an OP...

 

K&R
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #2)

Sun Apr 5, 2020, 12:39 PM

9. I second that!

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to PatSeg (Reply #9)

Sun Apr 5, 2020, 03:27 PM

30. Thank You, Ma'am, For Your Suggestion

 

Be well, and stay safe.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #30)

Sun Apr 5, 2020, 03:59 PM

32. Thank you

 

Same to you!
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to The Magistrate (Original post)

Sun Apr 5, 2020, 11:50 AM

3. Another straw man smashed by a Biden supporter /nt

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

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Response to philly_bob (Reply #3)

Sun Apr 5, 2020, 11:54 AM

5. instead of doing a drive by, why not refute the OP

 

Or can you?
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Response to philly_bob (Reply #3)

Sun Apr 5, 2020, 12:21 PM

8. It Will Never Do, Sir, Just To Chant The Name Of Various Fallacies At Me

 

There are two actual usages of 'strawman', one legitimate, the other less so.

At times, a person will state a position incoherently, or will refuse to state a position while assailing an opponent. In such cases, it is quite legitimate to make an honest attempt to decipher, or to deduce, an opponent's position, then state the result and engage it. This is certainly a legitimate usage of a 'strawman', and no fallacy at all.

The less legitimate usage is to simply create out of whole cloth a position which one would like to argue with, which does not honestly reflect an opponent's views, or at least does not much overlap with them. I suppose it is this usage you intend to convey.

What you are chanting 'strawman strawman strawman' at, however, is simply reportage. It is a description of a pattern of human behavior, commonly observed in many situations. People get through this world by employment of their faculties, by use of 'intelligence guided by experience' to understand what is going on around them. My 'intelligence guided by experience' leads me to the conclusions stated above. It does so by observation of one leading personage, and of many expressions of support for him, some which cheer him on, and others which denigrate those who do not agree and support him. It does not engage the arguments supporters present for support of him, or the arguments supporters press against those who oppose him.

While it presents an unflattering picture, unflattering pictures are not by definition false constructs, or false in any way, merely because they do not gratify someone's vanity. The evident fact you do not like some statement is not evidence it is false. Since it is a characterization of a great mass of people, even if you feel it does not apply to you, that is insufficient to demonstrate it is false.

Perhaps it is not true for you. Perhaps you have no concern whatever with how people perceive you, and expect that Sanders if elected would sweep every proposal he desires through the Congress in a twinkling, due to the great revolutionary upsurge of popular support he would rally to the streets to overawe any opposition to his sweeping programs.

That last, by the way, is a strawman. It is hoped you perceive the difference, and which sort of strawman it is I leave to you and other readers here to decide.






"When things are not called by their right names, what is said cannot make sense. When what is said does not make sense, what is planned cannot succeed. When plans do not succeed, people become uneasy. When people are uneasy, punishments do not fit crimes. When punishments do not fit crimes, people cannot know where to put hand or foot."
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #8)

Sun Apr 5, 2020, 12:46 PM

11. It is Sunday (I think)

 

and you are making me think too much!

Well, at least you've woken me up!
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #8)

Sun Apr 5, 2020, 04:35 PM

33. The Biden/Clinton wing of the party is more identified with identity politics...

 

and racial and gender suborganizations than class-struggle Bernie's wing is. E.g., Biden announced that his VP will be a woman, Bernie didn't. Biden consistently and accurately claims African American voters are his bloc in the South. Sanders does not claim any racial group.

What is odd in the OP that it charges Bernie supporters with identity politics -- the opposite of the reality. In other words, OP's use of "identity politics" -- well it was not calling things by their right names, as Magistrate preaches.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

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Response to philly_bob (Reply #33)

Sun Apr 5, 2020, 05:18 PM

35. If That Is What You Think, Sir...

 

Far be it from me to attempt to argue you out of it....





"From Bernie’s perspective, dropping out of a race once you have no chance of winning is peculiar behavior that can only be explained by the work of a hidden hand. For most politicians, though, it is actually standard operating procedure. Only Sanders seems to think the normal thing to do once voters have made clear they don’t want to nominate you is to continue campaigning anyway."





"When things are not called by their right names, what is said cannot make sense. When what is said does not make sense, what is planned cannot succeed. When plans do not succeed, people become uneasy. When people are uneasy, punishments do not fit crimes. When punishments do not fit crimes, people cannot know where to put hand or foot."
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to The Magistrate (Original post)


Response to The Magistrate (Original post)

Sun Apr 5, 2020, 12:05 PM

6. I Cannot Disagree, Sir.

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to The Magistrate (Original post)

Sun Apr 5, 2020, 12:19 PM

7. It's like how a lot of people got tattoos thinking it was hip and cool.

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to The Magistrate (Original post)

Sun Apr 5, 2020, 12:42 PM

10. I've talking those moving goalpost labels

 

My favorite example is, during the Bush years, I was considered a “radical” feminist. In 2016, I was apparently considered a neo-lib lackey shill who only wanted to hold down the 99% for corporations and oligarchs. (And I was told in no uncertain terms, that economic justice and social justice are the exact same thing)

Now, I am apparently considered a “moderate”.

I consider myself a liberal feminist. A Democrat.

Those labels, are always interesting in their shifts
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Joe Biden

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #10)

Sun Apr 5, 2020, 12:59 PM

12. Yes, very interesting

 

It has a Karl Rove feel about it. I really hate people telling me who or what I am just because I don't support their candidate. Just because they change the tags, it doesn't change the reality.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to PatSeg (Reply #12)

Sun Apr 5, 2020, 01:17 PM

14. I think it was this ultimately

 

That turned people towards Biden. He was let’s just say, not my favorite, even though I knew he’d be a good, possibly a great, President. He is an ‘old white man” to be sure, but he is pragmatic and appears to be fundamentally decent, and very aware as to who his constituents are. The black voting community started flocking to him early in in a way that even Kamala Harris or Cory Booker didn’t get. Kind of a digression there but yeah, being whipped sawed between labels, at least for me, just pissed me off. I do my own research, or I try, I don’t just pick someone because of cult of personality, although I do want to see more diversity, and I’m fully behind supporting that as a goal.

Right now, watching the Sanders campaign, it’s like watching a balloon slowly losing air.

He has secured his place in history though. I guess, in 50 years he’ll be mentioned in political science classes, but so will Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden and unfortunately, Donald Trump.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #14)

Sun Apr 5, 2020, 01:34 PM

15. Mr. Biden, Ma'am, was About My Last Choice For An Acceptable Candidate

 

Sanders being absolutely unacceptable by my lights. There is no reason to rehash my several scores against Mr. Biden, he is the candidate and I support him without reservation against the cheap thug Trump.

My personal favorite was Professor Warren, who in my estimation is second only to Mrs. Clinton as a figure on the national scene qualified to be President, and sure to do well in the office. We have been ill-served, as a country and a people, by the results of the 2016 election.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Joe Biden

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #15)

Sun Apr 5, 2020, 01:44 PM

20. Yeah, pretty much this

 

I was cool towards Warren because I was still salty about Hillary, but I was warming up quick, just not quick enough. My ordinal choice was Kamala Harris, even though it was clear her campaign had little chance. Warren would make an incredible President. I knew as soon as people started making fun of her “plans” and calling her a “policy wonk” that her campaign was in trouble

I mean, of COURSE you have to have introducible, workable “plans” on your platform. What do people think policies are? People did her dirty, because she is smart, forward thinking and thorough and as is well known, or should be, smart women, especially very smart women aren’t always well liked, for that awkward reason of that they are very smart.

Biden, I am fully embracing. He has one hell of a life story, and I adore Jill Biden. He is what we need to start to fix the messes he will inherit, including an incredibly uncertain economy and less than stable world stage.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #14)

Sun Apr 5, 2020, 01:44 PM

19. Yes

 

and possibly not a very favorable place in history either.

I took great affront to the idea that the DNC cast my vote, not me, and I know all those voters in South Carolina probably didn't appreciate it either.

I think a lot of Black voters were drawn to Biden because of who he was and they knew he wasn't catering to them just for political reasons.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to PatSeg (Reply #19)

Sun Apr 5, 2020, 01:50 PM

23. Good point

 

I remember feeling bewildered, then angry. I’m not particularly argumentative although I have my moments.

One of the trends I follow are the voters of the Black community, especially African American women.. They got behind Biden and near completely rejected Bernie Sanders. It’s Interesting just how complete that rejection is, and has been.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #14)

Sun Apr 5, 2020, 01:56 PM

24. Yes, like this....

 

?itemid=9018594
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to George II (Reply #24)

Sun Apr 5, 2020, 02:14 PM

25. Heh!

 

Love that gif!
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to The Magistrate (Original post)

Sun Apr 5, 2020, 01:02 PM

13. It comes out too with the often-cited claim

 

that "the Establishment" is terrible, in fact, it is assumed that it is terrible and must be revolutionized. Thus anyone who takes it for granted and wants to be elected within it is given certain labels, like "corporatist," "centrist" "supporting Wall Street (also assumed to be bad); supporting "the oligarchs" and "the billionaires" (the millionaires dropped out because Bernie is one).

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to The Magistrate (Original post)

Sun Apr 5, 2020, 01:36 PM

16. It was an ugly surprise to have been called for jury service on this op.

 

I'm all for the primary running it's course, until it ends, without vituperation.

I was with Warren, and am now undecided by default. I'm in what should be a Biden stronghold demographic, PA rustbelt blue collar white guy.

Last time I voted Sanders in the primary, then supported Clinton in the final. This time I'll do the same; vote for the choice that is most in line with my views, from among the options, then support OUR party's overall choice in the final.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to Mc Mike (Reply #16)

Sun Apr 5, 2020, 01:38 PM

17. Unfortunately, Sir, It Does Not Surprise Me An Alert Was Pressed

 

"Who has no enemies has no friends."
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Joe Biden

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Response to The Magistrate (Original post)

Sun Apr 5, 2020, 01:39 PM

18. I think this is spot on.

 

It's the Sanders faction's own version of identity politics, which they claim to disdain, but it's a binary thing where you're either one of the Enlightened (them) or a member of the loathsome Establishment (everyone else, regardless of political inclination or any other descriptor). And being Enlightened is way more cool than being one of the narrow-minded, plodding sheep that comprise the Establishment. If you're Enlightened you get to feel superior, and that's awesome.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #18)

Sun Apr 5, 2020, 08:40 PM

36. Thank You, Ma'am

 

This is what lets the 'Bernie' crew mix into itself the peculiar amalgam one sees of left and libertarian radicalism it displays. Both 'styles' have no expectation of ever holding power and being charged with responsibility, and adherent to either tend to view themselves as having seen through appearances to understanding realities lesser folk just can't quite grasp.


"So much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know fire is hot."





"From Bernie’s perspective, dropping out of a race once you have no chance of winning is peculiar behavior that can only be explained by the work of a hidden hand. For most politicians, though, it is actually standard operating procedure. Only Sanders seems to think the normal thing to do once voters have made clear they don’t want to nominate you is to continue campaigning anyway."






"When things are not called by their right names, what is said cannot make sense. When what is said does not make sense, what is planned cannot succeed. When plans do not succeed, people become uneasy. When people are uneasy, punishments do not fit crimes. When punishments do not fit crimes, people cannot know where to put hand or foot."
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to The Magistrate (Original post)

Sun Apr 5, 2020, 01:46 PM

21. You are broadbrushing all Sanders Supporters

 

What you are describing is something I have been calling political hipsters.

I think it is perfectly fine to call Bernie or Busters or Green Party voters that, but for those of us who voted for the democratic nominee in 2016 and will be voting for the nominee (who apparently is destined to be Biden) this year, I feel you are broadbrushing us. If this was all about voting for the "cool" candidate why would we have voted for Hillary in 16? Why Biden now?

We Bernie Supporters support Sanders in the Primary for all sorts of reasons. He might represent us and our views better, we might feel he would do better against Trump, hell it might be because they rather have a beer with him. But for those of us who are voting for causes, the cause is always the most important thing.

I want to see this country become more liberal, both in regards to economic and social issues. Not because they are "liberal issues" but because the individual issues are important to me. I knoiw the single best way to do that is to vote for the Democratic nominee. I thought Warren did the best job have espousing the values I hold dear and would do the best job of making those issues realities. But she wasn't able to get the votes needed. So I moved on to Sanders who I view as the one remaining who best represents me. He is almost certainly going to lose the primary after which I will switch to the nominee/Biden.

If my support was just about a marker of orientation I would be a Bernie or Buster or a Bernie/Green party voter. I am not, and never shall be.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

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Response to LostOne4Ever (Reply #21)

Sun Apr 5, 2020, 02:16 PM

26. Then We Would Seem To Be In Substantial Agreement

 

A pleasure to have you on board for Mr. Biden against the cheap thug.



"Overthrow and destruction of a hated enemy is something to be for!"
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Joe Biden

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #26)

Sun Apr 5, 2020, 02:20 PM

27. We are

 

We might disagree on the Primary, but in the end we are all Allies here. We all want what is best for America and Trump out of office.

I look forward to voting with all of you for the Democratic Nominee and to throw the overgrown oompa loompa out of the Whitehouse this November!

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

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Response to The Magistrate (Original post)

Sun Apr 5, 2020, 01:46 PM

22. In 2016, Sanders supporters and the RW weaponized the term

 

"identity politics" against HRC and her supporters. Remember "vagina voter?" I recall how Team Bernie would pooh-pooh the concerns of black people and people of color as "Identity politics."

It's exactly as you say, Magistrate. They are the ones practicing such politics.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Joe Biden

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Response to mcar (Reply #22)

Sun Apr 5, 2020, 03:44 PM

31. That Was A Particularly Repellent One, Ma'am

 

Sanders did not just benefit 'inadvertently' from misogynistic sentiments, he actively cultivated them among his followers.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Response to The Magistrate (Original post)

Sun Apr 5, 2020, 02:35 PM

28. Summarizing what I just said in a similar thread

 

Reagan shamed us into becoming "progressives" and Sanders shamed us into becoming "liberals" again. Think I'll stay right here and not change my description any more no matter who pops up on my left or my right. "Conservatives" are the ones who really should be ashamed...but they have no shame so I doubt they'll change their name any time soon. A great short scene deserves to be posted twice...

If I were to vote in a presidential
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Joe Biden

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Response to The Magistrate (Original post)

Sun Apr 5, 2020, 02:39 PM

29. Another Oldie but Goodie

 

One of my favorite rants of all time...

https://www.thestranger.com/seattle/fuck-the-south/Content?oid=19816
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