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Joe BidenCongratulations to our presumptive Democratic nominee, Joe Biden!

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 01:46 PM

 

I was manipulated by the Russians, and we must assume everyone was.

Last edited Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:04 PM - Edit history (1)

After reading the Mueller report it's clear that Hillary and Bernie supporters were pitted against each other on purpose in 2016 in order to elect Trump and we need to recognize this. After the 2016 elections I deleted my Facebook account and limited my social media to creating book reviews on Instagram. I'm wary to be on the internet in a political context and my trust in online news sources started on this very website. I think everyone should be on high alert while being on the internet in a political context because there is no stopping the Russians from manipulating again in 2020. I'm hoping 2016 was a vaccine and we know what to do and what to look for, but we're at risk of it being a true illness that we can't shake off.

These are rules that I personally go by now:

1. SLOW DOWN to fact check. The information age gives you 20 facts a day but the other 19 facts can wait their turn. Categorize by importance first. If there is an original source, read that.
2. Avoid and don't trust political internet memes altogether. Same with short YouTube videos since those can give false context. Only trust full unedited videos.
3. Go to candidates websites for their platforms, do not let others tell you what they are. Try to establish voting records yourself, don't let others tell you what they are.
4. Support Journalists. Buy and read your news offline.
6. Don't limit who you talk to, break bubbles. With the exception of if you feel unsafe doing so.
7. But most importantly slow down. You do not have to know 5 new things before breakfast!

I hope others have made their own precautions since the 2016 election as well. We must look at how we want the same things.

Edit: okay if you don't want to be open to the possibility that you were manipulated, go at it. But that leaves you open to thinking you can't ever be manipulated. Please take precautions regardless.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Reply I was manipulated by the Russians, and we must assume everyone was. (Original post)
Neoma Apr 2019 OP
lapucelle Apr 2019 #1
Neoma Apr 2019 #3
lapucelle Apr 2019 #7
Neoma Apr 2019 #10
NurseJackie Apr 2019 #12
Neoma Apr 2019 #15
NurseJackie Apr 2019 #29
Neoma Apr 2019 #31
NurseJackie Apr 2019 #37
Neoma Apr 2019 #38
progressoid Apr 2019 #110
NurseJackie Apr 2019 #114
progressoid Apr 2019 #118
NurseJackie Apr 2019 #121
betsuni Apr 2019 #123
ehrnst Apr 2019 #129
mr_lebowski Apr 2019 #36
NurseJackie Apr 2019 #40
mr_lebowski Apr 2019 #53
NurseJackie Apr 2019 #65
mr_lebowski Apr 2019 #81
better Apr 2019 #85
NurseJackie Apr 2019 #99
True Blue American Apr 2019 #102
NurseJackie Apr 2019 #109
mcar Apr 2019 #55
Neoma Apr 2019 #56
lunamagica Apr 2019 #119
BannonsLiver Apr 2019 #19
Neoma Apr 2019 #26
BannonsLiver Apr 2019 #32
Neoma Apr 2019 #33
BannonsLiver Apr 2019 #35
Neoma Apr 2019 #41
NurseJackie Apr 2019 #30
brooklynite Apr 2019 #104
lapucelle Apr 2019 #16
Neoma Apr 2019 #21
lapucelle Apr 2019 #72
wasupaloopa Apr 2019 #94
LakeArenal Apr 2019 #39
MaryMagdaline Apr 2019 #83
JHan Apr 2019 #117
MaryMagdaline Apr 2019 #127
artislife Apr 2019 #24
Neoma Apr 2019 #43
lapucelle Apr 2019 #45
artislife Apr 2019 #54
lapucelle Apr 2019 #57
Post removed Apr 2019 #60
lapucelle Apr 2019 #69
Post removed Apr 2019 #70
BannonsLiver Apr 2019 #100
leftofcool Apr 2019 #49
comradebillyboy Apr 2019 #2
Neoma Apr 2019 #8
comradebillyboy Apr 2019 #9
Bettie Apr 2019 #22
Lazy Daisy Apr 2019 #115
BannonsLiver Apr 2019 #13
Neoma Apr 2019 #14
sharedvalues Apr 2019 #17
Neoma Apr 2019 #18
sharedvalues Apr 2019 #23
Neoma Apr 2019 #25
LenaBaby61 Apr 2019 #34
better Apr 2019 #96
Neoma Apr 2019 #111
Skittles Apr 2019 #101
CentralMass Apr 2019 #4
yonder Apr 2019 #5
aikoaiko Apr 2019 #6
marylandblue Apr 2019 #11
aikoaiko Apr 2019 #20
marylandblue Apr 2019 #89
certainot Apr 2019 #84
better Apr 2019 #98
Neoma Apr 2019 #58
Cary Apr 2019 #27
theophilus Apr 2019 #28
Kahuna7 Apr 2019 #42
Neoma Apr 2019 #47
leftofcool Apr 2019 #52
Kahuna7 Apr 2019 #67
Neoma Apr 2019 #68
Kahuna7 Apr 2019 #71
ehrnst Apr 2019 #44
Neoma Apr 2019 #46
Celerity Apr 2019 #112
Neoma Apr 2019 #113
ehrnst Apr 2019 #125
Neoma Apr 2019 #126
The Mouth Apr 2019 #133
andym Apr 2019 #48
prodigitalson Apr 2019 #50
Agschmid Apr 2019 #51
Neoma Apr 2019 #61
Hortensis Apr 2019 #59
artislife Apr 2019 #62
Neoma Apr 2019 #64
artislife Apr 2019 #66
marble falls Apr 2019 #63
Ponietz Apr 2019 #73
Neoma Apr 2019 #92
MaryMagdaline Apr 2019 #74
sop Apr 2019 #77
Neoma Apr 2019 #79
MaryMagdaline Apr 2019 #86
sop Apr 2019 #122
MineralMan Apr 2019 #75
Gore1FL Apr 2019 #76
Neoma Apr 2019 #78
artislife Apr 2019 #88
pnwmom Apr 2019 #80
Neoma Apr 2019 #82
Baltimike Apr 2019 #87
Marcuse Apr 2019 #90
Neoma Apr 2019 #91
Locrian Apr 2019 #93
peggysue2 Apr 2019 #95
Neoma Apr 2019 #97
peggysue2 Apr 2019 #105
Neoma Apr 2019 #106
peggysue2 Apr 2019 #107
Neoma Apr 2019 #108
BlueFlorida Apr 2019 #103
betsuni Apr 2019 #116
Kaleva Apr 2019 #120
duforsure Apr 2019 #124
WeekiWater Apr 2019 #128
peggysue2 Apr 2019 #132
Apple Fritter Apr 2019 #130
Neoma Apr 2019 #131

Response to Neoma (Original post)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 01:51 PM

1. I haven't seen any evidence that HRC's supporters were manipulated/targeted by the Russian

 

disinformation campaign. Do you have links?
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #1)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 01:52 PM

3. I found the Mueller report on the CNN site.

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to Neoma (Reply #3)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 01:55 PM

7. So did I. There's no evidence in the report that Clinton supporters were targeted by disinformation.

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #7)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 01:57 PM

10. Who says it was by disinformation?

 

All they had to do was get you to push against Bernie supporters as HARD as they could so they would not feel welcome in the party.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Joe Biden

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Response to Neoma (Reply #10)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:02 PM

12. Oh brother!

 

All they had to do was get you to push against Bernie supporters as HARD as they could so they would not feel welcome in the party.
Oh brother!
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #12)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:06 PM

15. They worked on existing divisions.

 

After Bernie lost there was a HUGE push for them to either not vote, vote third party or vote for Trump. I saw this. The best way was to make sure Hillary supporters did not welcome them with open arms.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Response to Neoma (Reply #15)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:24 PM

29. Bernie's supporters are responsible for their own decisions and emotions...

 

to make sure Hillary supporters did not welcome them with open arms.
Oh no! Hillary supporters didn't "welcome them with open arms"??? OMG! The horror!

Responsible and mature adults need to made responsible and mature decisions. Bernie's supporters are responsible for their own choices... it's not up to me to soothe disappointments or hurt feelings. These are ADULTS we're talking about... they're perfectly capable of dealing with their emotions.

The point is this: nobody needs to be coddled or treated like children after their candidate loses the primary.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #29)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:28 PM

31. Okay whatever. This discussion divides.

 

You can feel secure that you weren't manipulated in ANY way last election.

But you simply aren't 100% immune from Russian interference in the future and that's why I want people to be careful.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to Neoma (Reply #31)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:36 PM

37. Here's what I'm 100% sure of: People who behave in an immature way are the ones who are most likely...

 

But you simply aren't 100% immune from Russian interference in the future and that's why I want people to be careful.
Here's what I'm 100% sure of: People who behave in an immature way are the ones who are most likely to be unable (or unwilling) to accept personal responsibility for their choices.

And in my opinion, they're also who are equally likely to want to blame others (like "Russian Interference" for example) for the fact that their bad behavior (anger and poor attitude) was universally rejected by everyone else.

That's all I'm saying. People just need to accept personal responsibility and stop trying to blame others. I think everyone can agree on that, can't we?



If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #37)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:40 PM

38. I honestly didn't get involved in a lot of the infighting that happened here.

 

What I saw was just general toxicity and I stayed away from DU and slipped into Facebook. That wasn't a good thing and I fully recognize that.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Joe Biden

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #37)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 08:42 PM

110. ... they're also who are equally likely to want to blame others (like "Russian Interference"...

 

Golly, who else blamed Russian interference...
hmmm...
what was her name...
she wrote a book about it...


Oh, yeah. Senator Clinton.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Undecided

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Response to progressoid (Reply #110)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 09:57 PM

114. ...

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #114)

Mon Apr 22, 2019, 01:24 AM

118. Gee, I don't think you should laugh at Senator Clinton.

 

You posted that, "People just need to accept personal responsibility and stop trying to blame others."

But I think we can give Hillary a little slack here, don't you? Does she really need to accept personal responsibility for this? If you've read her book, you'd know that this Russian meddling thing was really eating her up.

That's all I'm saying.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

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Response to progressoid (Reply #118)

Mon Apr 22, 2019, 07:11 AM

121. ...

 

Gee, I don't think you should laugh at Senator Clinton.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Joe Biden

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Response to progressoid (Reply #110)

Mon Apr 22, 2019, 07:44 AM

123. "Senator Mark Warner summed it up well: 'The Russians employed thousands of paid internet trolls

 

and botnets to push out disinformation and fake news at a high volume, focusing this material onto your Twitter and Facebook feeds and flooding our social media with misinformation,' he said. 'This fake news and disinformation was then hyped by the American media echo chamber and our own social media to reach and potentially influence millions of Americans.' ... According to Time magazine, the Russians targeted propaganda to undecided voters and to 'soft' Clinton supporters who might be persuaded to stay home or support a third-party candidate ... . ... We know the swing voters were inundated. According to Senator Warner, 'Women and African Americans were targeted in places like Wisconsin and Michigan.' One study found that in Michigan alone, nearly half of all political news on Twitter in the final days before the election was false or misleading propaganda. Senator Warren has rightly asked, 'How did they know to go to that level of detail in those kinds of jurisdictions?'

"Interestingly, the Russians made a particular effort to target voters who had supported Bernie Sanders in the primaries, including by planting fake news on pro-Sanders message boards and Facebook groups and amplifying attacks by so-called Bernie Bros. Russian trolls posted stories about how I was a murderer, money launderer, and secretly had Parkinson's disease. I don't know why anyone would believe such things, even if you read it on Facebook ... but if you're angry enough, you'll accept anything that reinforces your point of view. As the former head of the NSA, retired General Keith Alexander, explained to Congress, the Russian goal was clear: 'What they were trying to do is drive a wedge within the Democratic Party between the Clinton group and the Sanders group and then within our nation between Republicans and Democrats.' Perhaps this is one reason why third-party candidates received more than five million more votes in 2016 than they had in 2012. That was an aim of both the Russians and the Republicans, and it worked."

Hillary Clinton, "What Happened."
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Joe Biden

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #37)

Mon Apr 22, 2019, 11:38 AM

129. +1000. (nt)

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #29)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:35 PM

36. Well, there you go, NJ ... that's how RU would want you to feel and think ... Naoma's point I think.

 

Convincing you to have that EXACT ATTITUDE you're displaying ... would be their goal.

I'm not sayin 'they convinced you', but that would be their angle to convince SOME ... to think ... just like you're expressing.

Not saying your point is 'incorrect', to be clear.

But that is EXACTLY how 'division' ... works.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Response to mr_lebowski (Reply #36)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:46 PM

40. LOL!

 

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primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #40)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:05 PM

53. Laugh all you want ... people who MOST think they're too smart to be manipulated by propaganda

 

Sometimes make the very best targets. Because once they've been manipulated, they argue in the MOST assured manner possible ...

By all means, go ahead and laugh again.

NOBODY thinks they can be manipulated. I mean literally nobody.

Yet advertisers spend Trillion$ ... worldwide ... every year ... proving that idea false, my friend.

Think about it.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Joe Biden

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Response to mr_lebowski (Reply #53)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:19 PM

65. I'm perfectly capable of rejecting someone's bad behavior without being told by Russia to do so.

 

people who MOST think they're too smart to be manipulated by propaganda
I'm perfectly capable of rejecting someone's bad behavior without being told by Russia to do so. I know what I saw.

By all means, go ahead and laugh again.


I said this to another poster: People who behave in an immature way are the ones who are most likely to be unable (or unwilling) to accept personal responsibility for their choices.

And in my opinion, they're also who are equally likely to want to blame others (like "Russian Interference" for example) for the fact that their bad behavior (hostility, violence, anger and poor attitude) was universally rejected by everyone else.

That's all I'm saying. People just need to accept personal responsibility and stop trying to blame others. I think everyone can agree on that, can't we?

Think about it.
Okay, I did. And I completely reject it as being an overly simplified (and wrong) way for some individuals to abandon responsibility, and to instead blame others for rightfully rejecting hostility, anger and violence and other anti-social and aggressive behavior.

I'm sorry to be the one to tell you this, but nobody gets a "free pass" by retroactively trying to "blame Russia" for the fact that perfectly reasonable, mature and civilized people REJECT and CONDEMN those who behave badly.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #65)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:59 PM

81. I completely understand your point, Jackie. But we're arguing 2 separate things ...

 

Probably THE most obvious angles Russia could've taken (to help Trump) were:
1) Convince Bernie supporters their guy got f***ed by Hillary (as evidenced by the DNC drops on Wikileaks, plus massive BS social media propaganda), and
2) Convince Hillary supporters Bernie's people were acting like a buncha spoil-sport children who didn't get their way, and hope they treat Bernie supporters poorly because of it.

Goal being, put them at odds with other, get Bernie voters to NOT show up to vote for Hillary. Both 1, and 2 ... help accomplish that.

Now, you may've completely came up with 2) all on your own, just cause that's how you think. But it doesn't mean they didn't TRY with other Hillary supporters, doesn't mean it doesn't make perfect sense as an 'angle' if you're trying to manipulate.

And if a Hillary supporter DID go about their business in Aug-Nov 2016 ... doing what Russia were hoping, regardless of whether they came up with that idea entirely on their own or not ... did they really 'win' in any sense?

I would ask them if 'being in the right' ... was really worth it?
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Joe Biden

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #29)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 04:11 PM

85. Everyone is responsible for their own decisions and emotions.

 

It does not follow, however, that anyone reaches their own decisions and emotions without being subject to external influence, or that they will even be aware that/when they are manipulated.

There's a palpable sense of "fuck them" in your response here.

Is your disdain of the idea of welcoming Bernie supporters with open arms beneficial, or does it play into discord between left-leaning voters? Did you arrive at it entirely on the basis of your own direct personal experience, or was your impression of them formed on the basis of information of which you are uncertain of the origin?

How about if we change the subject matter?

Oh no! Bernie supporters didn't "rally behind Secretary Clinton"??? OMG! The horror!

No, we shouldn't need to coddle people after their candidate loses the primary. But does that self-righteousness of it not being our obligation make the consequences of us not having been more effective at doing what we could to bring them into the fold worthwhile?

Sometimes it's very important to do something, even though we shouldn't have to.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Joe Biden

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Response to better (Reply #85)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 05:37 PM

99. can assure you that my standards of what passes for acceptable behavior were in place and well...

 

It does not follow, however, that anyone reaches their own decisions and emotions without being subject to external influence, or that they will even be aware that/when they are manipulated.
I can assure you that my standards of what passes for acceptable behavior were in place and well established long before anyone ever thought of trying to excuse themselves by characterizing my disapproval as being the result of "Russian manipulation".

Is your disdain of the idea of welcoming Bernie supporters with open arms beneficial,
Again, I can tell you with great certainty that it's not my responsibility to validate anyone who's imagines that they have been "personally" wronged because their candidate loses an election. Mature and rational people don't need my validation. They can validate themselves, or look elsewhere.

There's a palpable sense of "fuck them" in your response here.
Maybe. And if there is, so what? If there's any manipulating being done here, it's NOT by the Russians.

what we could to bring them into the fold worthwhile?
What we "could" do and what they actually want are two different things entirely. I'm not going to play that game. People generally don't respond well to blackmail and threats. They'll either come around or they won't. Their choice, not mine.

All I'm trying to say is that compared to all the effort and concessions that are needed to convince a mere handful of butthurt voters, we could spend HALF as much time and NO concessions and get a ROOM FULL of voters. I just don't think it's a very smart use of our resources (human and otherwise) to spend an inordinate effort to try and attract one or two unreliable voters.

I believe that the bitter and resentful and vengeful voters that are harangued into tepidly supporting the party are not as valuable to us as the ones who are EXCITED and ENERGIZED about supporting Democrats. Those are the ones who donate, who volunteer, and who "spread the gospel". Those are the voters that I want on my team... not the malcontents who may (or may not) follow through anyway.



PS: And anyone who disagrees with me is probably being influenced and manipulated by the Russians.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #99)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 05:55 PM

102. That was a well thought out post, Nurse Jackie!

 

Including the last line!

It is up to us to decide what choices we make.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to True Blue American (Reply #102)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 08:34 PM

109. Thanks.

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to Neoma (Reply #15)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:07 PM

55. No. The best way, and what happened, was for Russian trolls

 

posing as Bernie supporters to constantly trash HRC and hound her supporters all over the internet.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Joe Biden

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Response to mcar (Reply #55)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:10 PM

56. True. That probably did happen!

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to Neoma (Reply #15)

Mon Apr 22, 2019, 01:57 AM

119. What were they, children, or intelligent and mature adults who wanted what was best for the country?

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #12)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:15 PM

19. The entire premise is just more woe about 2016

 

That being said the originally stated point is valid.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

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Response to BannonsLiver (Reply #19)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:23 PM

26. Yes, that was sad.

 

But we need to move forward with our eyes open now.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Joe Biden

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Response to Neoma (Reply #26)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:31 PM

32. Yes, the general election outcome was sad

 

The way the primary process resulted in Clinton winning the nomination did not make me sad at all. Quite the opposite, really.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

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Response to BannonsLiver (Reply #32)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:32 PM

33. Ok?

 

I don't have anything against Clinton. Lol.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Response to Neoma (Reply #33)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:34 PM

35. Oh I'm not saying you do

 

I’m just pointing out how I felt about the process in specific terms rather than lumping it all under the umbrella of being sad. I was just clarifying.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Undecided

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Response to BannonsLiver (Reply #35)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:48 PM

41. I just want people to be careful this next election.

 

I actually like a majority of the democratic candidates and am quite proud of them. They're all smart, articulate and they have good policies.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Joe Biden

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Response to BannonsLiver (Reply #19)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:25 PM

30. Exactly. Yes. Thank you!

 

I didn't want to have to spell it out... but I guess it needed to be said.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Joe Biden

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #12)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 05:59 PM

104. Why did you read political posts on Facebook? I didn't.

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to Neoma (Reply #10)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:09 PM

16. That didn't happen to me. I stay away from social media. And that didn't happen in the GE campaign.

 

It was BS supporters who were played by the Russians during the GE campaign.



If I were to vote in a presidential
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Joe Biden

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #16)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:16 PM

21. You're on this -online- political forum.

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to Neoma (Reply #21)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:39 PM

72. There are administrators here, and it's not where I get my news.

 

The amount of pushback you're getting is reassuring.

I feel very sorry for the useful idiots who were played by the Russians in 2016. They were overwhelmingly NOT Democrats.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to Neoma (Reply #10)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 04:50 PM

94. Give me a frigging break! We supported Hillary we didn't push against Bernie supporters. At DU

 

were tombstoned for 3 or 4 months at a time during the height of the primary. We started our own Hillary web site because we could not post on DU.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Undecided

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #7)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:45 PM

39. Everyone was targeted with disinformation.

 

Hillary runs a sex ring from a Pizza Hut.
Hillary had Vince Foster killed
Hillary rejected protection in Benghazi.
Bill and Hillary have syphoned millions from the Global Initiative.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to LakeArenal (Reply #39)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 04:10 PM

83. Yes. And the ones that were less insane but equally untrue ...

 

That Chelsea’s wedding was paid for by Clinton Foundation money, that Clinton gave favors in the Russian uranium deal.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to LakeArenal (Reply #39)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 11:38 PM

117. And add the Seth Rich Conspiracy. We now know it was based on one of Assange's many lies.

 

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Response to JHan (Reply #117)

Mon Apr 22, 2019, 09:53 AM

127. Absolutely! The worst of the worst

 

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #1)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:20 PM

24. I do remember back during

 

the election that she had a lot of fake fb accounts deleted. It was supported by a site called Voactive

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vocativ

Vocativ was launched in 2013, with a team of approximately 60 news writers, editors and producers recruited from organizations like NBC News, the Guardian US, The Daily Beast, Storyful, Salon, NPR, CNN and Reuters.[5][6]
In 2015, Vocativ introduced a decentralized leadership structure with authority divided between the chief operating officer and chief content officer. These leaders are advised by and report to an executive committee. In 2015, Vocativ hired Vivian Schiller to chair its executive committee, reorganize its staff and refine its content and distribution strategies.[7][8][9]



here is a link to a story with their data

https://www.vocativ.com/usa/us-politics/hillary-has-more-facebook-fans-in-baghdad-than-any-us-city/

I am not saying Hillary or her campaign had any knowledge, but I am also saying that Bernie and his campaign had no knowledge. They played everyone. It was like that classic Twilight Zone episode where it shows the aliens watching a town go crazy. They just have to set things in motion and we will do the rest.
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Response to artislife (Reply #24)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:49 PM

43. Trump's campaign seemed to know.

 

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Response to artislife (Reply #24)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:51 PM

45. Not sure what I'm supposed to be looking at here.

 

Your link to a story from 2015 says nothing about fake facebook accounts. What tenuous nefarious connection am I supposed to see here? What exactly are you alleging HRC and her campaign had no knowledge of?

This is why I stay away from conspiracy sites and reddit.

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #45)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:05 PM

54. First link is to Wiki

 

so you know that they are not reddit and who the journos are

And the second link is to the story. I don't know why you seem not to be able to read it, but I have my theories.
here you go


Hillary Has A Bigger Facebook Audience In Baghdad Than Any US City


By Leigh Cuen
Apr 13, 2015 at 2:11 PM ET

Hillary Clinton’s Facebook pages have an unexpected audience base. At least 7 percent of the Facebook fans interested in Clinton’s Facebook activity list their hometown as Baghdad, way more than any other city in the world, including in the United States.
Vocativ’s analysis of Clinton’s Facebook statistics yielded a number of surprises. Despite her reputation as an urban Democrat favored by liberal elites, Iraqis and southerners are more likely to be interested in Hillary than people living on America’s coasts.
More IS HILLARY MARRIED TOPS PRESIDENTIAL GOOGLE SEARCHES
While Chicago and New York City, both with 4 percent of her Facebook audience, round out the top three cities for Hillary’s social base, Texas’ four major centers—Houston (3 percent), Dallas (3 percent), Austin (2 percent) and San Antonio (2 percent)—contain more of her Facebook user group. Los Angeles with 3 percent, and Philadelphia and Atlanta, each with 2 percent, round out the Top 10 cities for Facebook users who have interacted with Hillary.
On a per capita basis, in which Vocativ compared a town’s population to percentage of Hillary’s likes, people living in cities and towns in Texas, Kentucky, Ohio, Arkansas, North Carolina and Wisconsin were the most likely to be interacting with her Facebook activity than any other American residents.
Hillary’s Facebook pages are also extremely unpopular with younger tech-savvy Americans, with just 8 percent of her Facebook audience being female and 11 percent being male between 18-34. Most of her Facebook audience are older than 55, including over 66 percent of women and 52 percent of her male supporters.
More WILL ASTEROIDS BE A MINERAL SOURCE IN THE FUTURE?
However, over at her Baghdad base, Clinton enjoys the support of younger Facebook user with 66 percent of the Iraqi female users and 67 percent of males aged between 18 and 34.
Across the world, 14 percent of Hillary’s Facebook audience are self-reported government employees.
See Vocativ’s exclusive analysis of Hillary’s Facebook base below:
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Response to artislife (Reply #54)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:10 PM

57. Is there a point to this?

 

What are you trying to show?
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Response to lapucelle (Reply #57)


Response to Post removed (Reply #60)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:32 PM

69. I get it...you see some kind of apocryphal nefarious connection

 

in the city data noted in a 2015 article that predates both BS and DT announcing their presidential candidacies. You are either unable or unwilling to articulate that connection. You blame your unwillingness or inability on your "lack of faith in [my] ability to comprehend" rather than on the the fundamental failure of your argument.

Thanks for playing.

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #69)


Response to Post removed (Reply #70)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 05:49 PM

100. Another white flag of surrender, eh?

 

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #1)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:58 PM

49. We weren't. Hillary warned us and we accpeted that warning.

 

She knew what was going on and so did we.
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Response to Neoma (Original post)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 01:52 PM

2. Just because you were sucessfully manipulated doesn't mean all of us were

 

as well. Many of us weren't deceived by the social media lies and bullshit put out by Republicans, Russians, Wikileaks and certain 'progressive' outfits.
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Response to comradebillyboy (Reply #2)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 01:55 PM

8. Uh huh.

 

What makes you think Hillary supporters were not targeted to become more toxic against Bernie supporters?
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Response to Neoma (Reply #8)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 01:56 PM

9. Both sides, eh?

 

you know what the Mueller report doesn't show? It doesn't mention any support for Clinton's campaign by the Russians or any anti-Bernie propaganda by the Russians.
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Response to comradebillyboy (Reply #9)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:16 PM

22. Ensuring that Clinton supporters were openly and continually hostile toward Sanders supporters

 

isn't support for Clinton's campaign.

Over and over, right here on DU, people said "we don't need your votes" directly to Sanders supporters.

Most voted for Clinton anyway, even after having been told over and over that they were neither needed nor wanted in the party.

Was that simply a choice or manipulation? Are "leftists" not welcome in the Democratic party?

Fact is there was ugliness from both sides, not just one.
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Response to Bettie (Reply #22)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 10:07 PM

115. And it's still ongoing

 

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Response to Neoma (Reply #8)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:02 PM

13. So that's what the OP is REALLY about.

 

Got it.
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Response to BannonsLiver (Reply #13)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:03 PM

14. It's really a warning and a call to unify.

 

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Response to Neoma (Reply #14)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:11 PM

17. Correct. Unify. Sa positive things about YOUR candidate.

 

Great vaccine for misinformation:
Whenever you are tempted to be negative about some liberal, instead be positive about YOUR candidate.

Eg if you’re feeling upset about excessive neoliberalism, don’t attack people for that.
Instead, talk about the progressive stances of your candidate.
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Response to sharedvalues (Reply #17)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:12 PM

18. My Candidate in 2016 was Bernie Sanders. Was.

 

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Response to Neoma (Reply #18)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:18 PM

23. Right, so say good things about the candidates you like today!

 

Which candidate do you like today, and what can you say about them that is positive?

Ps good thread
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Response to sharedvalues (Reply #23)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:21 PM

25. I'm unsure.

 

I like so many of them.
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Response to comradebillyboy (Reply #2)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:33 PM

34. "Just because you were sucessfully manipulated doesn't mean all of us were."

 

THANK YOU!!

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Response to comradebillyboy (Reply #2)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 04:53 PM

96. And just because we weren't successfully manipulated last time doesn't mean we can't be this time.

 

Let's try to set aside the defensive reactions. Add the implied word "targeted" to the end of OP's subject line, and reassess. Does it still merit the same defensive reaction? I mean honestly, the entire OP can be quite accurately summarized "How to avoid making the mistakes I made."

The OP's intent was clearly not to fault anyone, save him/herself, and honestly, we should be applauding such honest self-assessment. It was to remind us all to be vigilant and careful, as we are all subject to being targeted for manipulation, and we cannot afford to count on immediately recognizing that that's what's going on.

Also, let's take note that everyone being manipulated by the Russians does not equal everyone being manipulated SUCCESSFULLY.

But just because many of us saw through the manipulation does not mean that we were not manipulated. It just means we're already fairly well equipped to share the kind of knowledge of how to avoid being manipulated successfully that the OP is endeavoring here to share, for all our benefit.

Kudos to us for having been ahead of the curve, so to speak, but instead of thumping our chests about how much better we did than some others, how about we applaud what the OP is trying to do here, and support it?
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Response to better (Reply #96)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 09:00 PM

111. Thank you.

 

Uhm, should I add the word targeted?
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Response to comradebillyboy (Reply #2)


Response to Neoma (Original post)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 01:53 PM

4. I was manipulated by no one.

 

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Undecided

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Response to Neoma (Original post)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 01:54 PM

5. Good, common sense post. Especially about slowing down - don't feed the beast. Thank you.

 

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Response to Neoma (Original post)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 01:55 PM

6. What exactly (memes, videos, or articles) manipulated you?

 




Most of the stuff I've seen fed on existing divisions within the party and the two candidates of 2016.

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Undecided

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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #6)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:02 PM

11. That's exactly how Russian propaganda works.

 

It doesn't create divisions, it exploits existing ones and makes them worse.
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Response to marylandblue (Reply #11)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:16 PM

20. Right, but people are acting like the divisions didn't exist a priori...

 


... or that the same outcomes within the Democratic Primary or GE wouldn't have occurred with certainty.

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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #20)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 04:23 PM

89. Well I agree with you there. We don't know what would have happened without the Russians

 

I suspect the results wouldn't have been too different, but it was only 80,000 votes in 3 states, so maybe they could have swung that many. Still, even with a Clinton victory, she'd face Republican obstruction, cries that she stole the election and possible impeachment. Basically, the country would be the same as it is now, except we'd have better judges and cleaner twitter feeds.(that's only half a joke).
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Response to marylandblue (Reply #11)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 04:10 PM

84. that's why the russians got trump to study talk radio in 2014 and their trolling ops

 

piggybacked 30 years of talk radio repetition- they weren't going to rely on a bunch of russians making shit up about hillary.

there will be some crap made up but if americans, including facebook etc, want to know what the russians are pushing just become familiar with what limbaugh is repeating.

his transcrips are now available on the iheart site and can be searched for any topic, name, etc + news.iheart.com/featured/rush-limbaugh/content

the russians have been making shit up and feeding it through limbaugh for at least a decade whether he knows it or not, and then there are the GOP think tanks that have been doing the same

facebook could save a lot of money by digitizing talk radio, tracking the main crap they sell there 15hrs/day, and watch for that.

the dem party should have been doing that 30 years ago and we wouldn't be in this mess
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Response to certainot (Reply #84)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 05:15 PM

98. That's a GREAT response.

 

And exactly the sort of contribution of ideas of how to identify and catalog the threat that I was calling for above. A cogent focus on who can affect improvement and how, which is exactly what we need.

Thank you for this.
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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #6)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:10 PM

58. Unfortunately I cannot undelete my account to show you.

 

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Response to Neoma (Original post)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:23 PM

27. This was obvious to some of us.

 

I must have said "don't do Kkkarl Rove's dirty work" a thousand times, to no avail.
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Response to Neoma (Original post)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:24 PM

28. Thanks for this. Good advice given, imo. And these things bring out the usual suspects. Always

 

nice to see the comments. Informative. Such interactions brighten my day. Wonderful back and forth, etc., etc., etc.
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Response to Neoma (Original post)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:49 PM

42. I was not manipulated and I don't believe most Hillary voters were. nt

 

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Response to Kahuna7 (Reply #42)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:56 PM

47. Ok.

 

But are you taking precautions for the next round?
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Response to Neoma (Reply #47)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:04 PM

52. Why do you think I need to take precautions?

 

I could not be manipulated the first time around and I won't be this time around. I know bullshit when I see and or read it. I did not believe any of the lies about Hillary and I won't believe any lies about my chosen candidate this time. I do not believe crap propagated by the right or left. I read and think for myself.
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Response to Neoma (Reply #47)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:28 PM

67. I don't need to take precautions. I'm a black, female, senior citizen..

 

I'm not easily fooled.
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Response to Kahuna7 (Reply #67)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:32 PM

68. The Russians infiltrated black lives matters.

 

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Response to Neoma (Reply #68)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:37 PM

71. I know they did. But they didn't get to me. 94% of black female voters voted for HRC.

 

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Response to Neoma (Original post)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:51 PM

44. I was not manipulated by Russians, and there are many more on DU who weren't, either.

 

We called out the lies, and continue to do so.

We're not going to be fooled this time either.
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Response to ehrnst (Reply #44)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:53 PM

46. Okay!

 

Do you have precautions in place? This is what I want. Preparation.
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Response to Neoma (Reply #46)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 09:15 PM

112. Resistance to Active Measures and Propaganda: "The Disruptors" - Motto: "Think For Yourself"

 

https://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/the-cyber-underground-%E2%80%93-resistance-to-active-measures-and-propaganda-%E2%80%9Cthe-disruptors%E2%80%9D-mot-0

Summary

The open societies of the US and free and democratic nations are being subverted by active measures and propaganda to undermine political processes and sow cultural and political divisions to allow closed societies of revisionist and revolutionary powers to dominate in international affairs. The way to counter this effort is through a grass roots resistance movement that consists of an educated, activist, energetic, and empowered youth who seek to be part of something larger than themselves and validate their self-worth as disruptors of the status quo. However, the closed societies are challenging their ability to disrupt because active measures and propaganda have taken away their initiative. A new grass roots movement, a cyber underground, organized around special operations principles can create a nationwide and global network that will seek out, identify, understand, and expose active measures and propaganda from closed societies in order to protect free and open societies. In short our nation wide youth of disruptors will channel their abilities to beat the revisionist and revolutionary disruptors. The exposure of adversary active measures and propaganda will inoculate the population against their effects and render their efforts ineffective and useless. This movement will help to restore and sustain what George Kennan termed the “health and vigor of our own society” that is the vital antidote to the subversive threats that we face.

Introduction

The values and political systems of open democratic societies are facing a world wide campaign of subversion by powers that seek to undermine democracies in order to strengthen their power in their region and throughout the world. This subversive campaign requires a global asymmetric response that cannot be organized by governments. It requires a grass roots resistance to conduct a counter cyber subversion campaign. An organizing principle may be found in both the modern concept of crowd sourcing and the application of special operations principles.

US Definition of Resistance: An organized effort by some portion of the civil population of a country to resist the legally established government or an occupying power and to disrupt civil order and stability. (US Joint Pub 3-05)


Adapted Definition of Resistance: An organized effort by some portion of the civil population to defend against the active measures and propaganda of an outside power that is seeking to disrupt civil society and create disorder and undermine the legitimacy of the constituted government and political system.


Subversion, active measures, and propaganda are key elements of modern unconventional warfare campaigns and revisionist and revolutionary powers are conducting unconventional warfare campaigns. Americans and the people of like-minded modern nation state powers need to resist the campaigns and strategies of those who are attacking freedom and democracy and the international nation state system that is required for freedom and democracy to flourish.

Congress recognized this threat in the 2016 National Defense Authorization Act in Section 1097 which directed the Department of Defense in coordination with other government agencies to develop a counter unconventional warfare strategy. While Congress called for a whole of government approach that is the modern framework for national security in the 21st Century, what is really necessary is a whole of society approach and engagement through, with, and by the people. The US government, and certainly not DOD, cannot defend America from these threats. It requires the people.

snip



RUSSIAN ACTIVE MEASURES IN GERMANY AND THE UNITED STATES: ANALOG LESSONS FROM THE COLD WAR

https://warontherocks.com/2017/09/russian-active-measures-in-germany-and-the-united-states-analog-lessons-from-the-cold-war/


Leaking damaging documents during election season, feeding the media false stories about candidates, and concocting conspiracy theories to smear politicians: this will sound familiar to anyone who followed the U.S. presidential election, and to an extent, recent campaigns in France and Germany. But these methods are not new. In fact, the Soviet Union used them all in West Germany throughout the Cold War.

The United States, as the Soviet Union’s “main enemy,” and West Germany, seen as the KGB’s “door to the West,” were the primary targets of Soviet “active measures,” or subversive operations. The two countries share a history that is all the more vital to understand amid claims that Russian active measures are back in business.

In Germany, warnings of the resurrection of active measures followed a series of high-profile incidents last year that evoked Cold War methods. Particularly notorious was the Lisa case, in which even Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov joined Kremlin-backed media in stoking German public outrage over the alleged rape of a Russian-German by refugees — after the story had been debunked. Compounding that, after the highly publicized 2015 hack of the German parliament, some feared that stepped-up attempts to hack politicians and journalists would lead to the leaking of documents during the elections. Berlin suspected the recent attempts, along with the 2015 hack, were committed by APT 28, the Russian military-linked group accused of the 2016 Democratic National Committee (DNC) hack.

On the day of the U.S. presidential election, German Chancellor Angela Merkel admitted that confronting “internet attacks that are of Russian origin” and the “false information” propagated by Russian media had already become “a daily task.” Though the election campaign was relatively quiet — briefly interrupted by a Russian-language botnet bolstering misleading messages from the far-right Alternative for Germany (AfD) — the entrance of the Russia-friendly, Euroskeptic AfD in parliament with a significant number of seats has opened the door for the kind of polarizing politics that such influence operations feed on.

As Germany hastens efforts to shield itself from outside interference and the United States presses on in its investigations into Russian meddling, it’s worth re-examining the two countries’ experience with active measures. West Germany, after all, endured the whole gamut of active measures, including at least three instances of Moscow interfering in its elections. For its part, the United States made a vocal effort to determine how to confront the problem that the Soviets posed to it and its European allies. As policymakers today confront a familiar toolkit, this history shines light on the kind of impact active measures can have, how attempted defenses have fared, and what lessons have endured despite active measures’ digital upgrade.

“Fake News” and Leaks 1.0

snip
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Response to Celerity (Reply #112)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 09:19 PM

113. Good stuff.

 

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Response to Neoma (Reply #46)

Mon Apr 22, 2019, 08:27 AM

125. Yes, the same ones that worked for me before.

 

Understanding basic journalism - what is good and bad journalistic practice, understanding the difference between opinion pieces and reporting.

Being informed about the sources of information - not that any source is infallible, but knowing that they have a track record of good journalistic practices.

Being aware when my emotions and not my intellect is being appealed to, especially on Social Media. If a source is deliberately ginning up outrage, my spidey senses start tingling. I learned a lot of that when I worked at a reproductive rights org, and read a lot of anti-choice contraception and abortion propaganda.

If a public figure lashes out at a reputable news source fact checking them, that's also a big red flag. Being combative with the legitimate free press for doing their job is a litmus test for me in terms of how they handle facts that don't support their talking points.

Understanding the difference between getting behind a candidate, and walking lockstep with a manifesto. I can support a candidate that I don't agree with on every detail, and even one that I find irritating. Politicians are human, and they ALL make mistakes, and they have different POVs.

Beware of "all or nothing" dualistic messaging within a Democratic primary such as "the only moral candidate" "the only progressive candidate" - that shoots up red flags, in every sense, all over the place with me. That indicates divisive propaganda at it source, even if those who are taken in and repeat it are not working for Russia or the GOP.

Any messaging about a candidate that states they are the "only moral candidate" gets put into the propaganda column.

There are also some tools available to help be a responsible consumer of information:

https://guides.lib.uw.edu/research/evaluate/fakenews



https://billmoyers.com/story/savvy-news-consumers-guide-not-get-duped/




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Joe Biden

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #125)

Mon Apr 22, 2019, 08:54 AM

126. Thank you.

 

This is really useful information.
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Response to ehrnst (Reply #125)

Mon Apr 22, 2019, 06:04 PM

133. Thanks. Good info

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
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Undecided

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Response to Neoma (Original post)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 02:58 PM

48. Twilight Zone's The Monsters are Due on Maple Street

 

where alien creatures induce people in a quiet American neighborhood to be at each other's throats by turning on and off lights during a blackout. Rod Serling's masterwork illustrates a powerful means to sow division that the Russians and others right here in America are well aware of.
It's even easier when there are ready-made divisions to exploit, and no doubt they will be exploited. The Russians would be lax if they do not try this approach to amplify potential divisions in 2020.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Joe Biden

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Response to Neoma (Original post)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:00 PM

50. yes. the space between stimuli and response is where true freedom and wisdom lie

 

we must tap into our inner Obama.
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Response to Neoma (Original post)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:01 PM

51. #2 & #7 Hell Yes!

 

I hate YouTube videos, I find them one of the worst places to actually learn anything.

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Response to Agschmid (Reply #51)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:14 PM

61. Youtube videos were the worst sort of manipulation.

 

You ever hear how they were turning people into conspiracy nuts with the play next button?
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Response to Neoma (Original post)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:12 PM

59. Great rules for voters because those who did this last time weren't fooled.

 

We can't do away with all the personal weaknesses and biases they target, but we definitely can take a few sensible precautions and do something about levels of ignorance that would make easy suckers of absolutely anyone. So when they come for us, we know them.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Response to Neoma (Original post)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:14 PM

62. You tried

 

But there is a syndrome going on here.
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Response to artislife (Reply #62)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:15 PM

64. Is there?

 

This is my first post in this forum.
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Response to Neoma (Reply #64)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:20 PM

66. Gird your loins. nt

 

I just been reminded about the swarm mentality. I have chosen now to ignore two puppets and I am sure my life will be much happier.
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Response to Neoma (Original post)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:15 PM

63. Good advice for any voter, a welcome post!

 

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Response to Neoma (Original post)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:40 PM

73. Russia sure as hell doesn't want impeachment--remember that

 

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Response to Ponietz (Reply #73)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 04:37 PM

92. Yes, that is a good point.

 

I have heard this theory but obviously it's not confirmed: They want our democratic process to fail so they can point to us and say, "see, democracy doesn't work."
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Response to Neoma (Original post)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:40 PM

74. Good post

 

The first step in fighting propaganda is to recognize that you are a target.
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Response to MaryMagdaline (Reply #74)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:52 PM

77. It's easier to con someone

 

Last edited Mon Apr 22, 2019, 08:26 AM - Edit history (1)

than convince them they've been conned.

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Response to sop (Reply #77)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:56 PM

79. And now I'm fully realizing that.

 

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Response to sop (Reply #77)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 04:15 PM

86. Very true!

 

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Response to MaryMagdaline (Reply #86)

Mon Apr 22, 2019, 07:16 AM

122. The Russians call it "Reflexive Control"

 

From a New York Times (April 19, 2019) opinion piece on Russian disinformation tactics:

"Reflexive control is a uniquely Russian technique of psychological manipulation through disinformation. The idea is to feed your adversary a set of assumptions that will produce a predictable response: That response, in turn, furthers a goal that advances your interests. By luring your opponent into agreeing with your initial assumptions, you can control the narrative, and ultimate outcome, in your favor. Best of all, the outcome is one in which your adversary has voluntarily acceded."

Many on the left "voluntarily acceded." Now they don't want to admit it, even to themselves.
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Response to Neoma (Original post)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:44 PM

75. Not everyone was manipulated. Everyone saw information designed

 

to manipulate, but many saw it for what it was and did what you say you will now do. We checked facts. We paid little attention to internet chatter. We read candidate websites, along with the Democratic platform. We read trusted sources who had proven themselves for years.

We voted, based on our own assessments, not because someone tried to manipulate us. The pity is that more people did not do that. Sometimes, we tried to convince people to do what you are suggesting in your seven points. Often we were cursed for doing so.

Many of us have been doing those things all along. We didn't change our habits in 2016. Once the primaries were over and we had a nominee, we focused on winning the election as best we could. We voted for the party's nominee, like we always do. We are Democrats.
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Response to Neoma (Original post)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:46 PM

76. Thanks for this.

 

I see some of the usual subjects going into "2016 mode" on this thread. This seems to bolster your point.
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Response to Gore1FL (Reply #76)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:53 PM

78. Yes, part of my point was to heal from 2016 or get manipulated by those old wounds.

 

I'm unsure how to approach those who believe they can't be manipulated. That's an odd stance to hold.
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Response to Neoma (Reply #78)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 04:21 PM

88. !!! nt

 

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Response to Neoma (Original post)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 03:58 PM

80. I don't see how deleting Facebook or Twitter helps. Awareness is what's important.

 

Since the age of Trump, I post probably 2/3 political stuff on Facebook now, only posting things like family photos to other family and personal friends.

And I have had a surprising number of people thank me for the posts and even tell me that they regularly go to my page to see what I put up there -- like articles from the WA Post, the New York Times, Just Security, Lawfare, and any other trustworthy site that seems to contain good info.

Like it or not, almost everyone we know is on FB, so we should be using the platform to get the truth out, not desert it because we're afraid of being contaminated.

I agree with you about fact-checking and knowing your source, and supporting the sources that I can.

If I were to vote in a presidential
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Joe Biden

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #80)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 04:04 PM

82. There was more than one reason.

 

I think Facebook was ironically hurting my social life. I'd be hung up on meeting up with people already gone in my life instead of meeting new people. I don't necessarily think everyone should quit. As long as you don't trust "grassroots" groups, don't watch short political videos and believe every meme you see. But then again, that's kind of hard to do on Facebook, yah?
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Response to Neoma (Original post)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 04:16 PM

87. knr

 

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Response to Neoma (Original post)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 04:25 PM

90. I voted for Bernie in the primary and Hillary in November. It was easy.

 

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Response to Marcuse (Reply #90)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 04:27 PM

91. Good, good.

 

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Response to Neoma (Original post)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 04:46 PM

93. geez!!

 

after reading some of these posts - how do you say "mission accomplished" in Russian?
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Response to Neoma (Original post)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 04:50 PM

95. I take your comments as a cautionary tale

 

I do not believe that everyone was manipulated in 2016 but I certainly think that 2016 proved that we are all vulnerable to manipulation. A heads up on the power of skilled propaganda is a good, common sense directive. Because the merchants of disinformation and propaganda will most certainly be out in force (actually they're already swarming) as we head into 2020.

To be forewarned is to be forearmed. If I'm interpreting your main post correctly, that's my take-away.
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Response to peggysue2 (Reply #95)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 05:05 PM

97. Certainly if you took these precautions before, there was some immunity.

 

Though to say social media didn't influence real media would be folly. The mere mention of the 2016 election put people in 2016 argument mode, and that can be exploited. So can thinking you absolutely cannot be manipulated.
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Response to Neoma (Reply #97)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 06:24 PM

105. I don't think there's any question that some reporters within the MSM were influenced . . .

 

by propaganda, willfully or not. Jeff Zucker at CNN made that infamous statement about Trump: "He may be bad for the country but he's great TV". For Zucker and other media moguls, Donald Trump was a revenue stream. For Trump it was free PR. The pile-on from the media over Hillary's emails looks positively ludicrous in retrospect. The NYTs published a number of stories that were clearly off the mark while never exposing Donald Trump's long history of grifting and cutting corners. New Yorkers and tri-state people knew who the man was long ago. And the NYT's had archives filled with the man's excesses.

But that still doesn't prove that every single person, Dem or otherwise, was manipulated in 2016. Sorry, I don't buy the idea that Hillary supporters fell victim to manipulation because they weren't welcoming enough to Bernie's people. Bernie supporters acted the way they acted and need to take responsibility for their own poor attitudes.

But on this we agree: the same tactics will be attempted this time 'round. Consequently, we can't say we weren't warned.
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Response to peggysue2 (Reply #105)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 07:08 PM

106. Did they really all act that way?

 

DU is an obvious target. Neon sign saying we talk about politics here. It's why I probably won't stay long and go on another hiatus. People argue politics all day here, they're addicted to it, you see people try to quit and they put up I'm back messages a week later. I saw it in my mom, she was on here what felt like 24/7 during the W. Bush years. Sure, it helped to be informed, but I view this method of getting the news severely compromised. I'm back here too after the Mueller report, addicted to what DU used to be. All day everyone goes after each others opinions, to form and shape them. To convince others of whatever their agenda is. If you can't change people's minds, usually you can find ways simply to change how they react.

If I was a nefarious scheming type of person I would take the knowledge of how people reacted to my post and continue using that method to stir those 2016 feelings and feed their ego trip for being right about the Mueller report. Encourage those feel good feelings that they are better than Bernie supporters and stoke that thought that people who supported Bernie are all morons who believed nonsense. Perhaps try to encourage a Bernie purge. Or perhaps that purge already happen and that work is already done and the next mark is Elizabeth Warren.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Response to Neoma (Reply #106)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 07:18 PM

107. I check in on this board multiple times a day but I also . . .

 

subscribe to the NYT, WAPO and read other sources on a daily basis. Am I addicted? Well, I'm definitely addicted to reading as widely as I can. There's no doubt that a single source, regardless of how much we like it, will slant your view in a particular direction. That being said, I do not have a twitter account though I can read others through my mobile port. I don't Facebook because I've never trusted the platform.

But your conjecture about "if you were a nefarious scheming person . . ." says a whole lot about your own attitude, not mine.

I thought we were having a conversation. Apparently we are not. Good-bye.

If I were to vote in a presidential
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Joe Biden

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Response to peggysue2 (Reply #107)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 07:21 PM

108. ? I said if I was one.

 

As an example of what they can do to shape opinion.
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Response to Neoma (Original post)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 05:55 PM

103. I am 100% positive that I was not manipulated. nt

 

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Response to Neoma (Original post)

Sun Apr 21, 2019, 11:33 PM

116. I noticed the fake news starting after the Snowden incident.

 

Last edited Mon Apr 22, 2019, 02:15 AM - Edit history (1)

Members of my favorite online group (all women, most on Facebook, international) began posting articles from strange sites called TheRealTrueNewsHonestlyTrustMe.com or whatever, some genuine (about Monsanto, pink slime, health things) and some fake. Glenn Greenwald would write an article with a dramatic headline blaming Obama for some terrible government thing, but if you read the article the terrible thing happened two years before Obama became president. There was a definite shift toward anti-Americanism, pro-Russia.

I spent a lot of time debunking crap about Obama starting WWIII, illegal surveillance, empire building, drone warfare, that he couldn't read without a monitor and was an empty suit, Michelle going on million dollar vacations, the birther thing. I tried to convince them that the Bush and Obama administrations were different, how the Republican Party wasn't even a real political party anymore.

By 2015 I was tired of being a journalist for free. I thought that surely nobody could be more disrespected and lied about than Obama. Ha! The lust to hate Clinton was sick. When that started up I retired from the group, knew facts couldn't make a dent on those deranged conspiracy theories so many people lusted for. It fulfilled some sort of need. By 2016 the fake news was almost a parody of itself it was so obvious. I was grateful for the DU members who still lived in the fact-based world and that I still trust.

What I noticed about the worst affected (and looking at the list realize this is my mother):

Binary thinking. Everything is black or white. Good or evil. Hero or devil. Moral or immoral. Pure or corrupt.

Subjective and emotional, can't be objective.

Quick to blame others, always the victim. Assumes bad motivations to others (but will believe what a stranger on the Internet says and not someone they've known for years and should trust not to lie to them). Projects their own weaknesses onto others.

Literal thinkers, poor critical thinking/reading skills. Does not listen. Communicates mostly with logical fallacies.

Pessimistic, negative, angry. Always have a personal insult. Thinks they are smarter than everybody else.

Likes labels, slogans. Assigns new meanings to words.
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Response to Neoma (Original post)

Mon Apr 22, 2019, 03:28 AM

120. I supported Hillary but would have glady voted and supported Bernie had he won the nomination.

 

Can't do much about the folks who've been manipulated into make a career out of refighting the 2016 primary so why bother with them?
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Response to Neoma (Original post)

Mon Apr 22, 2019, 07:48 AM

124. Every day

 

That's exactly what trump is doing by attacking people on twitter to use to divide them and use to pit them against each other with. Its used to weaken the opposition , and then attack again with. Putin has done the same thing in taking complete control in russia with , and run his criminal enterprise with, like trump is presently doing now here. It would be very unlikely trump was smart enough to do all this on his own. republicans are enabling our government now to be a criminal enterprise, and with putin behind it.
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Response to Neoma (Original post)

Mon Apr 22, 2019, 10:09 AM

128. Why should we assume everyone was when the manipulation was targeted?

 

To make that assumption is to ignore known facts.
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Response to WeekiWater (Reply #128)

Mon Apr 22, 2019, 01:55 PM

132. Good question, WeekiWater

 

To make that assumption absolutely ignores the facts we know and attempts to extrapolate a theory: that the manipulation and disinformation of 2016 had an equal effect everyone. Not true.

On the other hand, that doesn't discredit the cautionary: we are still vulnerable, so heads up everyone.
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Response to Neoma (Original post)

Mon Apr 22, 2019, 01:34 PM

130. I understand OP

 

I think many feel like Russian interference was the strongest thing. I don't agree. I think that your list is very helpful to prevent the individual from being caught up in political confusion and some of those tips should be used a lot more! I also think that there was always a problem before outside forces decided to exploit it. I think the root cause is the american people splintering on Ideologies and the direction of the country. As an example, Democrats and Republicans see candidate 1 represent a certain ideology and Candidate 2 as another very different path. This was happening before anyone announced that they would run for office.
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Response to Apple Fritter (Reply #130)

Mon Apr 22, 2019, 01:46 PM

131. Yes, you make a good point there.

 

Tribalism and confirmation bias is part of the problem. As well as the destruction of the fairness doctrine. There's more at play than trolls from Russia.
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