Should I be kicked out of the Club For Progressives?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

Incarcerated terrorists, murderers, and sexual predators shouldn't have the right to vote. As George Orwell mused “There are some ideas so absurd that only an intellectual could believe them.”

P.S. I would add that felons who have served their debt to society should have their right to vote restored except felons who have committed terrorism, murder, and sexual assault. I would be willing to look at those cases on a case by case basis.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

1. You're safely on the side of the majority, so rest easy, I guess?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

3. Of course felons who served their time should have their rights restored

But you have to be insane or an intellectual, I guess, to believe if Charlie Manson was alive he gets to vote.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

6. Charles Manson did not lose his citizenship when he was incarcerated.

[SharonClark]

9. Of course he didn't lose his US 'citizenship'

But was he allowed to vote?

[LongtimeAZDem]

17. No, but we don't let him exercise Second Amendment rights, either

Incarcerated felons have demonstrated that they are a danger to society, and we have taken steps to limit their abilities in that regard. I believe that this includes voting as much as any other liberty.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

25. What dangers does voting by incarcerated people present?

[LongtimeAZDem]

26. The same dangers presented by all voting. Elections have consequences.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

28. You're right. We should do away with voting entirely.

[LongtimeAZDem]

29. That tactic is unbecoming. I'll leave you to it.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

33. Dang, I thought we were getting somewhere.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

44. Hahaha... like your sense of humor!! (Wish some had more of it.)

Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!!
Welcome to the revolution!!!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

30. I have a freiend who went to the hoosegow for stealing a leather jacket.

He can vote but never own a gun.

[LongtimeAZDem]

35. I disagree with that outcome, but it is a different discussion than this one

I believe civil rights should be restored upon serving one's sentence, unless a compelling case, subject to due process, can be made against doing so.

However, that concerns those who are no longer incarcerated, which is not what we're discussing.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

39. He found a well paying job in loss protection.

[crazytown]

2. The Willie Horton ads write themselves.

On Twitter - Democrats’ Manson family values.

[BannonsLiver]

77. They would use this with great effect in 2020

And it could also be used by his primary opponents as well. Bernie favors Dylan Roof retaining his voting rights. Bernie favors the Charlottesville murderer being allowed to retain his right to vote. If you’re explaining you’re losing.

He would have been better off sticking to non violent offenders being allowed to vote, which might have some support.

I’ve also noticed a lot of Bernie supporters don’t understand the difference between allowing these people to vote in prison versus restoring their rights after they have served their time, which has broader support than what he is proposing.

[WeekiWater]

4. Your progressive membership is in good standing.

I hope you think mine is as well considering I think those you mention should have the right to vote. No one has ever accused me of being an intellectual. 😁

[JonLP24]

5. Vermont allows inmates to vote in jail

Crosscheck is stealing our elections but this is what you're worried about. In fact in prisons there are two rules no politics or religion is because they are as divided as the rest of us.

I want to move to Vermont. Such a well run state in this shithole of a country.

[Demsrule86]

13. Sure...but Vermont sends people to prison in southern states ...private prison hell holes...so I

don't really accept their advice. Other states allow people in jail to vote prior to conviction.

[JonLP24]

15. I support voting rights for everyone

In fact in the early days they only barred voting for those convicted of bribery (which is laughable in this era of legalized bribery).

They started doing voter disenfranchisement around the time slavery ended and during mass incarceration.

[Demsrule86]

27. Not in prison...after release and for non-violent folks.

And the idea that this is for POC is an insult and a stereotype.

[JonLP24]

37. Tim Wise broke down the history of disenfranchisement

[JonLP24]

81. ACLU

Link to tweet

[Demsrule86]

82. The only reason this is an issue is because Sander said it...and making people of color

the face of incarceration doesn't seem like a good idea to me and shows that Sanders is not good on matters of race

[JonLP24]

84. I tried to explain to you the roots of felony disenfranchisement is rooted in White Supremacy

The ACLU points out the same thing.

Look at what the Republicans are doing.

https://www.prisonersofthecensus.org



Many countries fully recognize the right of incarcerated citizens to vote. Today, 26 European nations at least partially protect their incarcerated citizens’ right to vote, while 18 countries grant prisoners the vote regardless of the offense. In Germany, Norway, and Portugal, only crimes that specifically target the “integrity of the state” or “constitutionally protected democratic order” result in disenfranchisement. The European Court of Human Rights has forcefully defended the voter franchise, going so far as to condemn in 2005 Britain’s blanket ban on voting rights for prisoners, calling it a violation of human rights. In December of last year, after 12 years of resistance to the ECHR’s decision, the UK partially relented by allowing prisoners on temporary release and at home under curfew to cast their ballots.

Even our Canadian neighbors acknowledge the right of people in prison to have their voices heard at election time. In South Africa, meanwhile, prisoners have participated in the democratic process since 1999, when their Constitutional Court declared that “The universality of the franchise is important not only for nationhood and democracy. The vote of each and every citizen is a badge of dignity and of personhood.”

Despite this growing international consensus, however, the United States—the self-proclaimed lighthouse of democracy—significantly abridges the voter franchise. Only in Maine and Vermont can prisoners participate in elections; for the vast majority of the 1.5 million people in federal and state prisons, democracy remains a spectator sport. All told, less than 4,000 prisoners have the right to vote. It is time for this to change.

(Snip)

Prisoner disenfranchisement in the US is as old as the American prison. In 1792, Kentucky’s State Constitution became the first to disenfranchise people convicted of a crime, declaring that “Laws shall be made to exclude from office and from suffrage those who shall thereafter be convicted of bribery, perjury, forgery, or other high crimes or misdemeanors.” A flurry of other states would follow. As prisons emerged in the US during the 1820s, a system was already in place to deny representation to those who found themselves within those walls.

Formal racial disenfranchisement soon followed. Legal Fellow Scott Novakowski of the New Jersey Institute for Social Justice points out that a number of Northern states used their constitutions to block black participation in civic engagement. In 1844, almost twenty years before the Civil War began, New Jersey excluded free blacks from the electoral realm in its state constitution.

The Reconstruction Era brought a temporary respite when the Fifteenth Amendment endowed the right to vote regardless of “race, color, or previous condition of servitude.” Soon, however, policies that restricted the franchise based on felony conviction emerged, giving birth to laws designed to criminalize blackness and uphold white supremacy. In 1898’s Williams vs. The State of Mississippi, the Mississippi Supreme Court Court found it “within the field of permissible action under the limitations imposed by the federal constitution” that “Restrained by the federal constitution from discriminating against the negro race” the state could still “discriminate against its characteristics, and the offenses to which its criminal members are prone.” Three years later the 1901 Alabama Constitutional Convention, in addressing “White Supremacy By Law,” brought forward perhaps the most explicit mention of the racialization of felony disenfranchisement: “The justification for whatever manipulation of the ballot that has occurred in this State has been the menace of negro domination.” This strategy would continue through the Jim Crow era, and laid the foundation for the current situation in the era of mass incarceration. A 500% increase in the prison population over the past 40 years, has also meant a 500% increase in incarcerated voter disenfranchisement over the same period of time.

https://www.peoplespolicyproject.org/projects/prisoner-voting/

I supported Vermont's policy for 10 years at least especially when Tim Wise anti racist activist educated me on the history of felony disenfrinchisement.

I have been getting into arguments with conservatives progressives and moderates all over the internet so I strongly support Vermont's policy.

[Demsrule86]

86. People who didn't own property were not allowed to vote back in the day,

This issue is not a winning one and will be left up to the states...and it is kind of an insult to Black voters that he sees this as a way to attract them. Does he think all POC are poor an and/or incarcerated? There are so many other important issues.

[JonLP24]

88. I'm just explaining the history to you

Bernie Sanders set off a firestorm over prisoners voting, but his facts are straight

Morales-Doyle said the timing of when disenfranchisement for prisoners was codified in states’ laws is far from random. Before the passage of the 15th Amendment guaranteeing men the right to vote regardless of race, Morales-Doyle said very few states bothered to disenfranchise prisoners. But after the amendment passed, he said there was a wave of states that passed laws or amendments to take away prisoners’ right to vote.

He said the fact that 48 states still don’t allow incarcerated people to vote is unquestionably a relic of Jim Crow-era laws. But, Morales-Doyle said, after Florida’s 2018 vote to enfranchise felons who have completed their sentences, there has been an increased interest in efforts to return voting rights to people across the criminal justice system.

https://www.politifact.com/vermont/statements/2019/apr/24/bernie-sanders/sanders-set-firestorm-over-prisoners-voting-his-fa/

Who does felony disenfranchisement disproportionately affect?

[Demsrule86]

87. Thank you for the explanation...I was aware of some of that. But the most pressing issues for

POC Is not restoring voting rights for felons. Unless Sen Sanders understands this, he will not get their votes.

[Demsrule86]

32. Sure Bernie said it so it must be supported.

If you are in prison,you don't vote. After release sure...this is a state,a and will never be a federal matter.

[JonLP24]

36. I think it is the other way around

I have been in favor of this long before Bernie Sanders showed up. Im surprised to see such strong support for voter disenfranchisement here but I guess because Sanders took a position it is easier to campaign against him on this issue.

[Demsrule86]

49. I have seen Sanders supporters support Hugh Melllo.... a candidate that sponsored a

Successful bill that made sure abortion could not be covered by insurance...heard them nod sagely and opine that there is no need for justice politics just an economic policy. I have seen excuses made when Jill stein voters were given prominent positions in the Sanders campaign...what Bernie says goes. I find lockstep politics distasteful. And if Sen Sanders is the general candidate, we lose. Sure I vote for him but it won't be enough. And then, we are truly fucked.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

46. Tell that to Kamala... and she was in the criminal prosecution business.

Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!!
Welcome to the revolution!!!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

18. Should I be worried about the fact

"Crosscheck is stealing our elections but this is what you're worried about..."

Should I be worried about the fact that Black Vermonters make up just 1.2% of the state's general population, but 10.7% of its incarcerated population:

Black Vermonters make up just 1.2% of the state's general population, but 10.7% of its incarcerated population. This means that, proportionally, there are nearly 10 times more black people locked up in Vermont's jails and prisons on a given day than there are walking its streets.

https://mic.com/articles/124341/here-s-how-black-people-actually-fare-in-vermont-with-bernie-sanders-as-their-senator#.ipTdmsiXo

[JonLP24]

21. I have a problem with mass incarceration and racial disparities in the criminal justice system

It is A LOT worse in Arizona especially if you're Mexican-American but the last thing I want to do is take their right to vote.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

22. I would take away the right to vote

I would take away the right to vote for murderers, rapists, and terrorists regardless of their race, gender, religion, orientation, et cetera. I would be willing to look at each case on an individual basis.

[cwydro]

69. I agree.

I would bet also, that many, if not most, of those in prison for felonies never voted regularly anyway. I also meet most of them aren’t even registered.

It would be an interesting study.

[thesquanderer]

72. re: "I would be willing to look at each case on an individual basis."

Then maybe the solution is to make it part of the sentence. A judge could sentence someone to x years in prison, with or without the right to vote. Would that work for you?

But even then, what would be the determinant the judge should use? The only one that clearly makes sense to me would be if the person were convicted of an election related offense, but you're not talking about that. So could the judge's sentence also include taking away other rights, similarly unrelated to the offense? What is the justification for these additional punishments beyond the incarceration tself?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

76. As a general rule if you commit a capital offense

As a general rule if you commit a capital offense, as opposed to a misdemeanor or felony, you should lose a lot of rights including the right to vote. However I can think of circumstances where even murderers can be rehabilitated, i.e. the woman who kills a physically abusive spouse.

[delisen]

52. Interesting stat on Vermont-what is the state doing to

build diversity and equality?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

57. According to another poster they ship some of their prisoners to the Deep South.

Now that's cruel and unusual punishment.

[George II]

20. I think you should look more into how well run Vermont is. Remember, they ship hundreds...

....of their prisoners to Mississippi. Plus they have the fourth highest black:white incarceration rate in the country. Only Wisconsin, Iowa, and Minnesota have a higher ratio.

Edit: "Thousands" edited to "hundreds".

[DemocratSinceBirth]

24. They ship black prisoners to the Deep South?

That potentially runs afoul of the Eighth and Fourteenth Amendment.

[George II]

31. Yes, there are prisoners from Vermont currently being housed in 13 prisons outside of Vermont...

...I misspoke, however, it's hundreds of prisoners, not thousands.

The furthest prison is in Arizona, the nearest is Massachusetts. This makes it very difficult for prisoners to get local legal assistance OR have family visits.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

34. Seem like disproportionate punishment.

[Celerity]

43. as of 2016, there're 1509 (1229 in prison, the rest jail) inmates under custody in Vermont (non Fed)

https://www.sentencingproject.org/the-facts/#map

If 11% are African-American (granted far too high compared to the % rate of white incarceration) you are talking about a very small number overall, 135 in prison, 31 in jail. Because those are such small numbers, the % could vary wildly with adding or subtracting just a few dozen from prison, and even 5 or 10 from or to jails.




228 (the private population listed above shrunk in the last two years) were just moved from PA to MS

https://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/story/news/local/2018/02/22/state-wants-vermonts-inmates-out-camp-hill-pennsylvania/363478002/


Vermont's out-of-state inmates will move to a private Mississippi prison in October following months of criticism about the conditions prisoners faced at a state-run facility in Pennsylvania.

The new contract signed with CoreCivic, which operates Tallahatchie County Correctional Facility in Tutwiler, is for a two-year term with the option of one two-year extension. The Vermont Department of Corrections will have available 350 beds in the more than 2,600-bed facility, according to a news release issued by the department.

This move will affect the 228 Vermont inmates housed at SCI Camp Hill in Pennsylvania, where Department of Corrections' commissioners say they sent prisoners to avoid overcrowding in-state facilities.

[radical noodle]

85. So if their prisoners are in Mississippi

my guess is that those folks don't really get to vote.

[Firestorm49]

7. Incarceration is the removal of a person from society and consequently, the loss of civic rights.

You can no longer go camping, shopping, go to sports events - or whatever you want to include in the list. You are a threat to society, so the benefits of absolute freedom are removed.

The right to be free to wander in society including the right to vote should be restored after the debt to society has been paid. If our system of incarceration doesn’t break people of their anti-social nature, then it’s as much the fault of the system as the perpetrator, but their rights of civic citizenship are restored once they are released, albeit with potential caveats such as probation.

Voting rights should be restored once released from incarceration.

[thesquanderer]

63. Do you favor taking away inmates' 1st amendment rights as well? (n/t)

[BannonsLiver]

65. This thread isn't about first amendment t rights

It’s about whether someone in prison serving time should be allowed to vote.

[thesquanderer]

67. The thread is about doing away with an inmate's rights. What's the difference?

Obviously, sometimes there's a rationale. Not even the NRA could defend an inmate's right to possess firearms.

But do inmates automatically lose ALL rights?

Do we take away their right to vote, and their right to free speech, and their right to not have to attend a religious service, and their right to not have the state discriminate them by virtue of their race, etc.? Or do they keep some rights? And if they keep some, what is the rationale for singling out the right to vote as one they must lose?

[BannonsLiver]

68. No, just the voting rights.

[thesquanderer]

70. On what basis is this right less protectable than the others? (n/t)

[BannonsLiver]

73. It Varies by state so you'd get a bunch of different answers

I don’t think people who are terrorists, have murdered or raped people should be allowed to vote.

I understand others view the severity and consequences of those crimes differently.

[thesquanderer]

75. I don't see the relationship between "severity" and "right to vote"

any more than the relationship between "severity" and other rights, whether the right not to be discriminated against by race (including while in prison), or the right not to be subjected to cruel or unusual punishment, or the right to free speech, etc.

What is the rationale for taking away THIS right in particular (whether for all those incarcerated, or even only from those who have done the worst things)?

[David__77]

8. Of course there will be disagreements.

I’m glad that Sanders and Harris gave their positions.

One in fifty black people are incarcerated. The incarceration rate is much higher among black people than non-black people.

I think a high level of caution should he employed before sentencing someone to lose their voting rights.

[Demsrule86]

12. So we still let them end up in jail only now they get to vote? Sorry not feeling the Bern...I will

say American prisons are a disgrace and must be reformed, and the private system needs to be disbanded...and we need an entire justice system overhaul.

[David__77]

16. I don't know that this need be about Sanders.

Last edited Tue Apr 23, 2019, 11:18 AM - Edit history (1)

I don’t think prisoner voting rights and criminal justice and prison reform need be opposed to one another.

In any event, I think it’s a great type of conversation to have in this primary - I look forward to the debates highlighting such issues.

EDIT: I initially said I believed "Harris took the same position." It appears that, instead, she said "I think we should have that conversation."

[Demsrule86]

23. The condition of our prisons are a national disgrace.

[George II]

51. It is about Sanders. He was the one who proposed it, not Harris.

She said she was "open to considering it", but wasn't clear on the issue. That is a completely different position.

[David__77]

55. Yes, it is a different position.

I agree with you.

[thesquanderer]

64. Your quote is wrong.

Harris did not say she was "open to considering it" -- she said "I think we should have that conversation." These do not mean the exact same thing.

Based on everything she had just said, she had already considered it and developed her personal position. She said "people should not be stripped {the right to vote} needlessly" -- where is the NEED to prevent the incarcerated from voting?

So even when Lemon reiterated at the end, almost in disbelief, that she could actually be agreeing with Sanders' position about this, while diplomatically saying "we should have the conversation," she did not in any way backtrack on earlier statement, even when Lemon made sure she knew they were talking about giving the Boston Bomber the right to vote.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

19. Seems we're mixing apples and oranges.

There is broad agreement that most felons who have served their time should be allowed to vote, just not while they are in prison.

[Demsrule86]

10. I am against incarcerated folks who have been convicted voting

(jails are different if it is pre-trial detention). After they have served their sentence than they vote. My reason are jails will coerce prisoners into voting a certain way...right wing probably. Violent offenders should not vote period.

[David__77]

14. Even misdemeanor jail inmates?

I mean, people sentences to misdemeanor crimes who serve them in jail?

I’m glad this issue came up. It’s something I hadn’t given much consideration to.

I think it’s reasonable to require specific criteria to be met (not just incarceration) for a judge to impose a sentence of loss of voting rights. I don’t think, for instance, petty theft should cause loss of voting rights.

At the same time, I can understand simply taking an all or nothing position.

[George II]

42. For the most part people who are jailed for misdemeanors only serve a month or two, most states....

....have a maximum penalty of one year, which is rare. So for one to lose one's voting rights would mean he/she would have to be jailed in November.

I don't believe people who are convicted of a crime and jailed should have the right to vote. BUT, all states should restore voting rights after that person serves it's time.

Florida just changed their law to allow prisoners to vote once they're released.

[David__77]

47. I think it's great that people here can air their views and disagreements!

I don't think people in jail (as distinct from prison) should lose their voting rights. As for prisoners, I'm not sure about all cases. If I made a decision on that right now, I'd say to extend voting rights to all prisoners. I'd rather err in that direction than in the direction of restricting voting rights.

[thesquanderer]

66. re: "I don't believe people who are convicted of a crime and jailed should have the right to vote."

What exactly is the rationale for taking away their right to vote?

As I posted elsewhere:

the purpose of incarceration is not to unnecessarily take away people's rights. Part of the purpose is to protect public safety, part is rehabilitation (at least in theory), part is deterrence, and sure, part is punishment. But locking them up is the mandated punishment. I don't see the rationale for adding more punishment beyond the sentence itself.

[Demsrule86]

50. Yes.after their debt to society is paid than they vote. By the way were you aware

That domestic abuse is a misdemeanor in Kentucky and other states.

[David__77]

53. Thanks for sharing your view.

And the information.

[SharonClark]

11. Maybe the discussion should start with allowing ex-felons who have served their time

to be allowed to vote. They still can't in some states.

[Demsrule86]

38. Elections are a state matter.

[rgbecker]

89. So one state could set the voting age at 30, or require you to show that your mom was white?

Bottom line, as many Democrats in Congress have stated, these election laws (Voter IDs, Gerrymandering) should be covered by national laws and many are.

[Demsrule86]

90. Yeah states can do what rhea choose.

[Hortensis]

40. A question without a perfect answer, but I believe

this baby can be sliced up ethically and decently more than one way, though my lean is to consider the right to vote sacred for all.

It would have to start with one basic cut: Those who are considered to have served their "debt to society" should have an inalienable right to vote.

Second, that it could not have a collective harmful or discriminatory effect on other citizens, intentional or otherwise.

After that, many imperfect but decent choices.

I feel most of those guilty of ...un-heinous crimes or un-seditious crimes should be able to vote in prison. Perhaps all should, but I'd personally like a big no to Manafort-type criminals -- attack the process, endanger the principle, lose the right.

But I'd be fine with even serial killers on death row voting if that's what their fellow citizens chose; after all, they're still citizens affected by their government.

Or, in contrast, with freed murderers never allowed to; they could be considered to never completely pay their debt as a consequence of forever depriving their victims of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness, including their right to vote.

[dsc]

41. Do we all get to add crimes to the list or only you?

I might have a bigger problem with embezzlement or hate crimes. Or maybe I find those who torture animals unfit to vote. That is where making lists like these go.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

45. We do it all the time.

That's why we have misdemeanors, felonies, and capital crimes.



Thank you for not caricaturing my position.

[dsc]

48. It should be noted that the only grounds to lose voting after serving time used to be bribery

and frankly I would rather see a child molester vote than the likes of Rick Scott. So it isn't an unreasonable idea that people might have different crimes they wish to add to the list.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

56. As a practical matter most felons should have their rights restored with the emphasis on most.

By throwing non violent felonies in with capital offenses like murder, rape, and terrorism you create a hole for demagogues to drive in with a truck, i.e. "so you want to allow convict murderer/rapists to vote while in prison?"


That's what Orwell was getting at when he mused "“There are some ideas so absurd that only an intellectual could believe them.”

[LongtimeAZDem]

58. +1

[DemocratSinceBirth]

59. The law distinguishes between felonies and capital offenses.

If you brandish a gun to rob a bank you committed a felony. If you shoot and kill the teller because he or she wasn't moving fast enough you committed murder which is a capital offense.

[dsc]

61. and if you don't then you get everyone lobbying for his or her crime to be included in the list of

those who can't vote. Sodomy was at one time considered one of the worst crimes one could commit. That surely would have been on such a list for decades after the founding.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

74. The law shouldn't be affected by the weather but it inevitably will be influenced by the climate.

Paul Freund once said that "the Court should never be influenced by the weather of the day but inevitably they will be influenced by the climate of the era,"


I don't believe we will live to see a climate where incarcerated murderers, rapists, and terrorists who have committed heinous crimes against their fellow citizens will be allowed to vote while in the hoosegow. I believe in restorative but even restorative justice must include an element of punishment to deter others.

[stonecutter357]

54. K&R

[IronLionZion]

60. GOP would add anyone who looks like or shares a name with felons, for voter suppression

knowing fully well that it disproportionately affects people of color who tend to vote Democratic.

They also like to profit from the private prison industry so will do whatever it takes to prevent people who have served their debt to even get jobs or live a normal life, hoping they'll commit a theft or something to put them away again. And then use slave wages prison labor for products and services that are "Made in USA".

That's what makes America great again...for some people.

[Peacetrain]

62. Right there with you on that!

And if you get kicked out.. I will be too.. there are things that are absolutes.. no terrorist trying to destroy our country should have the right to vote in our elections.. no abuser of children and sexual predators on either men or women should have the right to vote..

There should not be the number of people who are in prison right now, .. it is insane.. we have the highest incarceration rate in the world. stealing a car you have to serve your time.. but that does not take away all your rights as a citizen..

But there are some crimes that are beyond the a second chance..

[corbettkroehler]

71. The Root Of The Problem Is Our Constitutional Rights

I disagree with your position but wouldn't revoke your membership card. I may differ with your opinion but I would fight for your right to hold it.

I operate under the definition that Democracy means that the minority has a voice.

I come down somewhere near Bernie's viewpoint as expressed during the CNN Town Hall last night: as soon as we begin chipping away at voting rights, it becomes a slippery slope.

If we reduced incarceration through criminal justice reform, the number of felons per capita would drop to a relatively low number versus the general public. They could vote their conscience without swinging large blocks of the electorate writ large.

Many of us think that universal suffrage guaranteed the right to vote as a constitutional right. It did not. This is why so many court cases have failed repeatedly to block gerrymandering.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

78. I/ We're talking about the worst of the worst, not your garden variety offender, who should have his

I/ We're talking about the worst of the worst, not your garden variety offender who should have his or her rights restored. I would argue by throwing in murderers , rapists, and terrorists in the same batch with non-violent offenders you're making it harder for the latter group to have their rights restored.

[Mike Nelson]

80. Trump and the Russians are...

… salivating over this prospect... they must be wondering if it's too early to get the Facebook memes and Twitter bots working...

[Blue_true]

83. I share that view. nt