MellowDem
MellowDem's JournalOh please...
Stop with these stupid, infantile strawmen. I never said religious people who identify with bigoted religions are "bad" people. That's the problem really. Plenty of good people align themselves with horribly bigoted institutions, and it's considered beyond reproach simply because religion is involved. Do people who align themselves voluntarily with bigoted institutions deserve some amount of criticism? Yes.
Catholics don't really skew more liberal than the general population. Hispanics do skew more Democrat Party (not liberal per se). Whites don't. And white and Hispanic Catholics reflect that very well.
Quite a few Protestant religions skew more politically liberal than the general population, Episcopalians being one, but there are also Southern Baptists that don't.
But of course, which religious population skews which way is irrelevant and a red herring. The point is that people are identifying with bigoted institutions, and what their personal political leanings are are irrelevant to that fact.
Catholics are not a mainstay of political libreralism...
And... the church heirarchy, the ones with all the power and that makes all the decisions, is incredibly bigoted, and will gladly use the money from liberal Catholics to spread bigotry.
Catholics, just like many other religious people of certain faiths, are identifying themselves with a bigoted institution. Yes, that's harmful to those that the Catholic Church preys upon.
But....But....
I like the culture and tradition! C'mon, what's wrong with identifying myself with a bigoted institution? I mean, gees, if you're going to criticize me for that, why don't you leave America! Hypocrite!
Horrible analogy...
to seriously compare leaving a religion with leaving a country... it's just a terrible analogy. It's easy to leave the Catholic Church compared to leaving a country, especially if you don't have a lot of resources. It just shows the incredible privilege the religious have to compare leaving their belief to leaving a country. It's incredible. Religion is a belief system, a country is not. There are sooo many differences, too many to list really. You can't vote in your religion, you don't have elected representatives, nobody taxes you.... I could go on.
And yes, there is a difference between being a member of an organization voluntarily and being inducted into a social contract from birth as a "citizen", one which entails being subject to laws and the use of force.
So no, it IS really different.
What's NOT any different would be a better analogy. You're raised in the KKK, you like the culture and tradition but don't agree with the official heirarchy or positions the KKK takes, but you still remain a member, keeping an "ideal" KKK in your own head as the reason to stay. There's a good analogy.
Strawman OP...
Criticizing DU Catholics for associating themselves with a bigoted organization is not bigotry or Catholic bashing.
Saying that "good people" can be Catholics does nothing to address these criticisms.
Father Mychal's good works does not stop me from criticzing him for supporting and being part of an organization that is fundamentally bigoted.
There are many "good people" that are conservatives, even some that have given their lives for others, and yet you use this disgusting tactic Gulliani perfected to somehow try to shutup all legitimate criticism. Shame.
The VAST majority of threads and responses criticizing Catholics or the Catholic church have not been bigoted, but legitimate criticisms. None of those say Catholics are all pedophiles, or that all Catholics are evil. Good people associate themselves with bigoted organizations all the time, and this site, DU, criticizes those people for doing so all the time. The only difference now? It's religion, and some people can't handle that yet. This thread is a giant strawman.
Not at all...
Criticizing liberals for associating with bigoted and conservative organizatoins is not saying "you can't be liberal", it's saying, "hey, you're liberal, so why are you part of these organizations?" It's pointing out cognitive dissonance or intellectual dishonesty. There are no strong undertones. I think many people on here are very sensitive and offended when it comes to criticism aimed at religion, but if it was a secular organization, there would be no controversy.
I'm guessing all Catholics would rather you criticize the Church heirarchy only and say "but yes, the people who choose to still be members, their A-OK". But that's just a great way to deflect the question and not deal with the fact that they are associating themsevles with that heirarchy.
Religious people have no more "right" to have their "dignity" protected by shutting up all relevant legitimate criticism of their association with a bigoted organization. And yes, they will be criticized for remaining part of an incredibly bigoted, top-down organization that has no way for these liberals to change it, even as this same institution actively discriminates and spouts bigotry of all sorts.
I'm sure people would never like to be criticized, but tip-toeing around such subjects to not hurt someone's percieved "dignity" is not required and not effective either. That's part of the problem of religion, it gets such a huge pass and is allowed to continue to do things with much less scrutiny than secular organizations get because of this privilege it has as somehow being above criticism. No, your personal religious beliefs are no more off-limits than your personal political beliefs.
DU is not the Democratic Party...
which, as a whole, is a lot more conservative than DU.
I don't see people saying Catholics can't be liberals, or part of the Democratic Party, or on DU, I just see people asking legitimate questions and criticizing people for associating and identifying with a homophobic and misogynist organization. Such criticism wouldn't cause any controversy on here if the organization was a secular one, but religion still gets special treatment.
It isn't friendly fire, or a purge, it's asking sincere and honest questions and making legitimate criticisms.
When an organization that discriminates against you and your friends, and lends monetary support to those who would take away yours and other's rights appoints a new leader, and there is a thread on DU congratulating members of that organization for their new leader, who holds the same bigoted beliefs, try to imagine how that feels. Just because it's a religion doesn't mean it or its members should get a pass.
DU is a great place of all to have these sorts of discussions. No, this isn't saying that the Democratic Party should begin a purge of purity. It's being able to have deep and relevant discussions on the issues that oftentimes is not possible anywhere else, because of the realities you cite.
It's an organization...
and you have a choice to leave it. Religion doesn't get a pass, but some people are so used to the historically privileged status of religion on here I guess.
Exactly....
I couldn't have said it any better. The level of hypocrisy and intellectual dishonesty is hard to take.
Yes they are part of the problem...
Blaming Catholic parishoners as being part of the problem makes a lot of sense. Their religious belief doesn't get a pass from criticism because it has the word "religious" in it. You say you question their religious belief and don't understand why they don't leave, and that's EXACTLY the issue, not a "different story".
Any people who continue to be members of and identify themselves with religious organizations that have offical conservative positions, who recruit almost exclusively through the abusive practice of childhood indoctrination, whose beliefs are based in faith and not logic of any sort, who stay with a church/mosque/synagouge based on things like tradition and social pressure, are indeed part of the problem that is religion hindering progress.
Not just Catholics, all religious people who choose to identify with religions with such official positions of misogyny and homophobia are part of the problem.
Some people view their religion as though it's a birthright and not a choice. Well that's wrong, and a product of normalizing child indoctrination as somehow not abusive (and that's a whole other thread). It's a choice to remain, and when you identify yourself with a religion that is homophobic and misogynistic, you are part of the problem and you will be criticized for it. No, you are not personally being attacked for an inherent trait you can't change, you are having your beliefs or associations with institutions with certain beliefs criticized.
Individual Catholics may indeed be against these things, but then they should stop identifying as Catholics if that's the case. Otherwise, they are engaging in cognitive dissonance and intellectual dishonesty and will be criticized for it. No, this isn't bigotry.
As an example, maybe my parents raise me in the KKK, and I enjoy the culture and community involved, but don't agree with any of the offical positions. However, I continue to identify myself as a member of the KKK. Yes, I'm part of the problem. And yes, you have to realize a lot of people that have been discriminated against because of the bigotry of religion will see it no different (and it really isn't, even without the word "religous"
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