July 15, 2013

You should see how the Koran judges people, a lot harsher than me

Homophobia is nearly always a product of bigotry, though it doesn't have to be. That's because the phobia is related to people, homosexuals, and not to an idea, like Islam. Technically, homophobia doesn't automatically arise from bigotry, though it usually does given that connection.

A more direct comparison to Homophobia would be Muslimphobia, because then you're describing people, and even then, people can choose or not choose to be Muslims, people don't choose their sexual orientation. Still, a lot of the bigotry on the right is directed at Muslims, not Islam, and the source is usually prejudice of all sorts of things, like ethnicity or culture etc. Calling all Muslims beasts or rapists or what have you would be bigotry. Substantive criticism of Islam itself on the right is pretty rare, mostly because the same criticism applies to Christianity, of which many of the far right claim to be a part of. So criticsim of Islam itself is usually based in ignorance, though not always, and many on the right actually make legitimate criticisms of Islam, even if the source of their criticism is irrational, and they're quite hypocritical. For example, you'll see some on the right scoff at the miracles of the Koran as unbelievable while fully believing in the miracles of the Bible.

The creation of the term "Islamophobia", which seemed to try to falsly conflate it with the usual bigotry of homophobia, is mostly to blame, and was the point of those who made up the term. It's a crappy term, and one that has led people to believe that criticizing Islam is somehow the same as criticizing homosexuals.

Imagine conservatives coming up with the term "Christianityophobia" or "conservaphobia". It's called trying to falsly play the victim, and conservatives do it quite often. The War on Christmas is a wonderful example. Indeed, when Christians claim they are being persecuted merely because people criticize Christianity, that's no different than what this article is saying about Islam.

Both reflect the tremondous privilege religious people have. Many Muslims have HUGE privilege issues with Islam. In many Islamic societies, criticism of Islam is not even allowed, and the punishment for doing so is severe. Islam is entitled to special protection for many Muslims, just as Christianity is for many of the far right Christians in the US. Faith-based religions, at their core, are not so different.

Not believing in something is definitely a choice. All beliefs are choices. How are religious beliefs different from any other beliefs? We don't operate under mind control. I'm not saying all choices of beliefs are made without any sorts of constraints or outside influence, just that they are a choice, unlike, say, one's skin color.

If I ask you whether you believe I have a talking unicorn as my best friend, whatever you answer, it will have been a choice you made.

I don't think it's unethical to say my opinion on a discussion forum.

July 14, 2013

Nope, she's dumb

Because she doesn't know the basic definitions of words and misuses them throughout her article, coming to terribly ignorant conclusions as a result.

Islamophobia isn't bigotry. It's an irrational fear of Islam. Some of it may be based on bigotry, or not. And certainly, criticizing Islam isn't automatically Islamophobic. The criticisms can be quite rational, like Islam being inherently misogynistic.

Islam is a belief system, not a group of people. You can't be bigoted towards a belief system. Islam is not a person. Treating ideas with contempt, even based on prejudices, is not bigotry, it's just poor argumentation if it's based on ignorance. There's a lot of Muslimphobia on the right. But that's distinctive from rational criticism of Islam itself. Treating ideas with contempt based on the actual substance of the idea is in no way bigoted.

I get the distinct feeling that this is a case of projection for many believers. Their belief systems they claim to follow are bigoted, and what better way to not examine that nasty reality than twisting the definition of bigotry so that everyone is, especially those criticizing religion. It's stupid sad intellectual dishonesty.

July 14, 2013

What a shitty article

Things wrong about it: Islamophobia isn't racism, no more than conserve phobia is. Author is stupid to keep parroting that and doesnt understand even the most basic definition of words. And criticizing Islam for being a sexist, violent religion isn't irrational, so it's not a phobia, it's a good point.

Another thing: Islam IS inherently violent and misogynistic. Read the Koran. It's all the proof that is needed.

Another thing: you can criticize Islam without saying other religions do it too, and your points are still valid. Yes, all the Abrahamic faiths are misogynistic, hateful creeds. No, people who point that out aren't racist.

Easy as pie to shoot down such stupid shit. This author is just dumb.

July 9, 2013

I explicitly said there are secular organizations like that...

in my post, and no one would sanely think they would get a pass on a progressive board. So why should religion? Don't know where the projection is coming from, since it's pretty well known that religion, as a topic, gets a privileged status in much of society. On a discussion board, it doesn't, and that really bends some people out of shape.

I never called for ideological purity, I simply said that if you post the good works of organizations that are actively trying to take away people's rights on a progressive board, don't be surprised if you hear criticism, and indeed, I will criticize such organizations.

Stop with the bullshit strawmen if you want a discussion, or read posts more carefully.

July 9, 2013

The only thing pitiful...

Is the belief in something based on no proof, and the insecurity, naivety and privilege of many of these faithful.

If you don't think organizations which hold many conservative views as a whole, indeed some of which hold downright bigoted and nasty ass misogynistic and homophobic views, and give lots of money to take away the rights of many who post here, won't get called out on a progressive board, then you're either naive or incredibly privileged, or both.

The KKK does charity, but ya know what, if a story comes up about their charity, I'm still gonna trash them for their fundamental beliefs. Some KKK groups even claim to be not racist. Still gonna trash them.

Until these churches renounce some of the terrible crap they spout, I'm always going to bring it up, because I want to make them uncomfortable with holding such terrible views, just like I would do for any other organization. Yeah, I know some churches are trying to make nice with the public by never saying out loud the fundamental beliefs they hold on a wide range of topics that make them uncomfortable, and that's exactly why I'll keep calling them out.

And I'll always criticize them for promoting the idea that believing something just because is a virtue, as I would any organization.

I'm glad some churches hold progressive views on social programs, but I can say the same about any number of organizations that also otherwise hold terrible and bigoted views on other topics, and I'll always call those organizations out.

July 2, 2013

The link I already posted to you in another thread and that you already saw...

http://www.pewforum.org/Faith-in-Flux.aspx

Now, some 80% of children raised Christian remained Christian. Hmm, wonder what "raised Christian" means. In other words, belief in something with INCREDIBLE claims, with NO proof or evidence, something of which there are infinite possibilities, retained 80%. Indeed, much of a belief system that has indoctrination dogma in its official creed, baptizes babies with vows by the parents to indoctrinate them, have whole communites where dogma is chanted every seven days, and has classes specifically for children to indoctrinate them into the dogma.

And Iran (as just one of many examples) is 98% Muslim, and has been predominately Muslim for hundreds of years now, why is that?

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ir.html

If the truth is (as you claim) that people mostly believe their religion because it is what they know and are familiar with, then childhood indoctrination is a huge part of making them "know" and become familiar with that religion. You can't separate the two. It's incredibly disingenuous of you to say otherwise.

You constructed strawmen that I never said multiple times in this thread. Me calling you out on that is not ad hominem. I get really tired of being protrayed as hating all religious people by you, or saying they're all delustional, or liars, or mentally impaired, and you do it constantly twisting my points and arguments. I was pretty light on your bullshit all in all. It's a disgusting argument tactic, and one you employ passive aggresively well enough. Whenever I ask "where" I said what you accused me of, you never answer. It's bullshit and you know it. Own up to it and don't do it anymore.

As for Jesuits, you claimed they're the epitome of skepticism. Well, it's your claim, prove it. Jesuits are Roman Catholics, so they already presume the existence of God (and a whole lot of other stuff that would have actual skeptics doing backflips).

As for Pope Francis:

“Let’s not be naïve, we’re not talking about a simple political battle; it is a destructive pretension against the plan of God. We are not talking about a mere bill, but rather a machination of the Father of Lies that seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God.”

http://www.salon.com/2013/03/14/pope_francis_on_gay_rights_his_5_worst_quotes/

Yes, he believes that legalizing same-sex marriage is a machination of the Devil. Yes, he tried to stop it in Argentina. He's not a skeptic. He's a bigot. Yes, an actual bigot. Indeed, the whole Catholic doctrine, which Jesuits claim to follow, is steeped in ignorance and superstition. Claiming the Devil is plotting to legalize same-sex marriage is par for the course. Yes, that's right, supporters of same sex marriage are really just tools of a completely evil demon. That belief surely hasn't caused untold pain and suffering and won't continue to do so. And really, let's be honest, perfectly rational, skeptic approved stuff here.

Look, I know you like to downplay all this. Maybe you'll build another strawman and tear it down. But realize that this is what you're calling the epitome of skepticism. And you're supposedly a scientist... Hopefully this explains why I find religion so potentially harmful.

July 2, 2013

Statistics...

And the official creeds of the beliefs are filled with indoctrination. Heck, they often require the parent to vow to indoctrinate in baptismal ceremonies. For the believers that don't indoctrinate, good, but they're a tiny minority.

Jesuits do not epitomize skeptical inquiry at all. Apologetics and poor logic is not skepticism. Do you know that a Jesuit is Pope right now, and that he's a misogynist and considers efforts to legalize gay marriage the work of the devil? Wow, real skeptic there. He believes in the freakin' devil, and THIS is the epitome of skepticism? Really? You want to back that up?

I find it insulting in the face of all the evidence that you can honestly claim data doesn't show that indoctrination and cultural coercion is the primary way religion is spread. Why is it that the vast majority of Christians born to Christian parents and raised Christian remain Christian? Or Islam, or most any religion. You ignore this fact like the plague.

Why is Iran nearly 99 percent Muslim? Surely not everyone over there is engaging in critical enquiry as an adult and all coming to the same conclusion.... Or do you believe they are?

People's beliefs do impact me in the real world. Did you know religious beliefs are the main reason people oppose choice in abortion in my state? Or gay marriage? Your feigned ignorance is insulting once again. In my state, people's religious beliefs impact what is taught in fucking public school. Are you honestly that staggeringly naive? Many religious people have dangerous, stupid as shit beliefs, and they make up majorities in parts of this nation and around the world. Are you becoming aware of this just now? Do you know where a lot of misogyny comes from and continues to be supported? Yes, religion impacts the world, and has huge impacts even on those who don't believe. THAT is why I make a huge deal out of it. Just like I do ANY belief, political, religious, etc.

And drop your straw men bullshit. I never said that believers are sick and lying etc. etc. Do you have any sort of relevant point or argument? Or more straw men to attack and more points to avoid?

July 1, 2013

Any with prejudice in it...

Since its impossible to prejudge beliefs.

July 1, 2013

Yes, telling them there is not a god as fact is no better...

I'd tell my children what I believe and why, and that it's my opinion, and I'd tell them what others believe and why, I'd try to educate them on most of the major religions since they will be better prepared for the real world.

I don't think all religious people are delusional, I think most see through it, which is where the intellectual dishonesty and cognitive dissonance kick in. I think everyone engages in both of these, religious or not, but religion promotes it indirectly.

I wouldn't say all ways the world is perceived is equally valid in my opinion, and explain why I prefer skeptical inquiry to faith based beliefs, for example. I wouldn't say my way was the only way according to some objective unprovable truth. I'd encourage them to question everything, including me and my ideas and opinions.

July 1, 2013

How does one prejudge a belief...

One must know a belief to judge it. Even if a person misattributes the belief to another group, it's not a pre judgment of the belief, and the judgment of the mislabeled group is simply a mistake, not a prejudgment.

Even if a person misunderstands a belief, and judges it on that understanding, it's still a mistake, and not a pre-judgment. Remember that a belief is the proposition something is true. Indeed, if a person says that they believe black people are inferior, how is it possible for my judgment of that belief to be a pre-judgment? Beliefs can be prejudicial. Judgments of beliefs cannot.