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In reply to the discussion: I am sincerely perplexed by the "it's not an assault rifle" meme... [View all]grantcart
(53,061 posts)169. In the context of the complete sentence it means
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
'the people' being the group that comprises the Militia that the ammendment refers to.
It is a plural noun reflecting the group of people who will comprise the defense of the people.
What it does not refer to is to 'individual' rights of people to carry arms for individual reasons.
In studying historical documents one of the most important tools is the tool of redation criticism. You compare it to other similar sentences. For example the first ammendment;
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
It is written with absolute clarity and with absolute terms. If those passing the 2nd ammendment to speak unambigiously to individual rights of gun ownership they would have used decisive and clear language, they did not choose to do so.
But we have much more clarity because we have all of the various versions before it was ratified;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
Conflict and compromise in Congress produce the Bill of Rights
James Madison's initial proposal for a bill of rights was brought to the floor of the House of Representatives on June 8, 1789, during the first session of Congress. The initial proposed passage relating to arms was:
The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well armed and well regulated militia being the best security of a free country but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person.[81]
On July 21, Madison again raised the issue of his Bill and proposed a select committee be created to report on it. The House voted in favor of Madison's motion,[82] and the Bill of Rights entered committee for review. The committee returned to the House a reworded version of the Second Amendment on July 28.[83] On August 17, that version was read into the Journal:
A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, being the best security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; but no person religiously scrupulous shall be compelled to bear arms.[84]
The Second Amendment was debated and modified during sessions of the House on in late August 1789. These debates revolved primarily around risk of "mal-administration of the government" using the "religiously scrupulous" clause to destroy the militia as Great Britain had attempted to destroy the militia at the commencement of the American Revolution. These concerns were addressed by modifying the final clause, and on August 24, the House sent the following version to the Senate:
A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, being the best security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; but no one religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person.
The next day, August 25, the Senate received the Amendment from the House and entered it into the Senate Journal. When the Amendment was transcribed, the semicolon in the religious exemption portion was changed to a comma by the Senate scribe:
A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, being the best security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed, but no one religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person.[85]
By this time, the proposed right to keep and bear arms was in a separate amendment, instead of being in a single amendment together with other proposed rights such as the due process right. As a Representative explained, this change allowed each amendment to "be passed upon distinctly by the States."[86] On September 4, the Senate voted to change the language of the Second Amendment by removing the definition of militia, and striking the conscientious objector clause:
A well regulated militia, being the best security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.[87]
The Senate returned to this amendment for a final time on September 9. A proposal to insert the words "for the common defence" next to the words "bear arms" was defeated.[88] The Senate then slightly modified the language and voted to return the Bill of Rights to the House. The final version passed by the Senate was:
A well regulated militia being the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
The House voted on September 21, 1789 to accept the changes made by the Senate, but the amendment as finally entered into the House journal contained the additional words "necessary to":
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.[89]
Clearly the ammendment was aimed at providing a means for individual citizens to gather for 'the common defence' in the nature of a citizens military force. You are free to join the national guard to continue that tradition.
Even though that is clearly the case I concede that it is fair to conclude that the individual right is among a vast number of other rights that could be fairly implied in the constitution.
So;
Even though I agreed that there was a constitutional basis for the right to own your gun that wasn't enough for you. We can conclude the following;
Your devotion to a particular (and clearly misleading) reading of the 2nd ammendment reaches a religious level. You have bought the myth and even when someone tries to agree in general principle you want to pick a fight on specific interpretation. Do you have any idea how fucking pathetic that is? Do you also realize that even the most ardent gun enthusiast in Europe, even the CEO of the German company that makes guns, even the British representative of that firm who sells munitions to governments consider your position to be psychotic and the fact that you are more devoted to your idea of your gun, your idea of your right to own as many guns as you can house and all of the other strange attributes of the radical American gun culture to be psychotic?
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I am sincerely perplexed by the "it's not an assault rifle" meme... [View all]
phantom power
Jul 2012
OP
Here's the thing. You are being fooled by cosmetics. Both guns perform the same.
Edweird
Jul 2012
#5
"Simply because hunting rifles can be converted to assault rifles doesn't mean that it should be leg
rl6214
Jul 2012
#194
You forgot to mention that the men and women that own the 200 miilion guns in the US
Edweird
Jul 2012
#184
You forgot to include that most of these "assault weapons" are ergonomically superior to hunting rif
rl6214
Jul 2012
#195
Incorrect, they are very different weapons. As well "assault rifle" is VERY real and not made up
pasto76
Jul 2012
#58
Really? You believe semi-auto is "more firepower" than 3 shot burst or full auto?
Edweird
Jul 2012
#69
Dude, do you even know why there is 3 round burst? SEMI AUTO is the MOST LETHAL
pasto76
Jul 2012
#149
I think you are giving accessories way too much credit and your training and experience too little.
Edweird
Jul 2012
#163
Im a democrat. Im also a soldier. I also want people to be able to watch a goddamn movie
pasto76
Jul 2012
#151
If semi-automatics with lots of accessories confer more fire-power than machine guns
4th law of robotics
Jul 2012
#103
Great point. Outlaw both. Outlaw all semi-automatic rifles. A good hunter doesnt
rhett o rick
Jul 2012
#112
I see your point, but it seems like it must be more than *just* cosmetics...
phantom power
Jul 2012
#121
Nope. Wooden stocks are expensive, heavy and require much more maintenance. The military developed
Egalitarian Thug
Jul 2012
#137
Yep, that about sums it up. The .223 can be used for something deer sized if you are
Egalitarian Thug
Jul 2012
#208
AR=30rd mag. Mini 30 sporter or a woodsmaster has a 5-10 rd. mag. Also, an assault rifle takes an
Erose999
Jul 2012
#178
The phrase "well regulated militia" preceeds "keep and bear arms" and "shall not be finfringed". So
Erose999
Jul 2012
#185
"The shooter might have been shot". It would have been a bad idea to pull on the shooter. several
Erose999
Jul 2012
#197
I'm just saying its not the best idea to challenge a shooter in a situation where he has all the
Erose999
Jul 2012
#201
You are allowing yourself to be seduced by the military appearance of the AR-15. Put a scope on it,
slackmaster
Jul 2012
#7
why not be proud he relentlessly laid around until the beast was close enuff then blamo
leftyohiolib
Jul 2012
#22
to compound it, all his buddies are pounding him on the back and buying him rounds
DrDan
Jul 2012
#23
You may be my new favorite DUer. I laughed hysterically upon reading this post.
LonePirate
Jul 2012
#38
A trophy or recognition for a long-distance shot might have been the main goal
slackmaster
Jul 2012
#75
I have done a couple of photo safaris to Kenya - it is remarkable to see these animals in the wild
DrDan
Jul 2012
#145
if he ate that, i wouldn't mind. if he did that just for a trophy head he'd be a sick bastard.
dionysus
Jul 2012
#175
some "sport". lucky for us this d.b. was there to take down the man eating terror that's been
leftyohiolib
Jul 2012
#18
A scoped rifle has been a standard weapon for hunting for well over 100 years
slackmaster
Jul 2012
#60
I've seen a heard of them running. They're amazingly fast, and you can't get close to them.
slackmaster
Jul 2012
#77
The fact that the AR-15 can accept different types of magazines makes it more useful
slackmaster
Jul 2012
#65
I believe the distinction between combat weapons and sporting weapons was drawn correctly in 1934
slackmaster
Jul 2012
#182
It appears you have more of an issue with magazine capacity then with the gun itself
Kaleva
Jul 2012
#10
At longer ranges, the upper gun would be more dangerous in the hands of a bad guy.
Kaleva
Jul 2012
#11
Which crap is it you aren't buying because it appears as if you have no idea.
TheKentuckian
Jul 2012
#144
I don't even own a gun! I'm pointing out how Fing easy it is to turn this thing auto......
wandy
Jul 2012
#40
Laws prohibit the manufacture or importation of guns that can be easily converted to full auto.
Kaleva
Jul 2012
#55
You seem to be another who has more of an issue with the magazine capacity then with the gun itself
Kaleva
Jul 2012
#37
The machine work needed to do a proper conversion requires special equipment and is not simple.
slackmaster
Jul 2012
#53
Methods 1 and 2 require precision machine work, and are no longer available to private citizens
slackmaster
Jul 2012
#52
'Assault rifle' means an automatic or select-fire rifle - i.e., more than one round
petronius
Jul 2012
#33
I'd post a link to a set of photos taken by a guy in Georgia who used a spear to hunt wild pigs
slackmaster
Jul 2012
#64
rifled bullets, as opposed to a shotgun slug, travel vast distances (up to a mile)
dionysus
Jul 2012
#174
C'mon, you're saying policy should be based on the visual design of a gun?
Schema Thing
Jul 2012
#78
Personally, I think anyone attracted to the second gun should be prohibited from owning guns.
Hoyt
Jul 2012
#179