Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News Editorials & Other Articles General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

Igel

(37,541 posts)
18. You can't debunk it without figuring out what it means.
Tue Jul 24, 2012, 08:59 PM
Jul 2012

1. My employer changed health plans already because of the ACA. Some of my doctors aren't in network. Can I still see them? Sure, if I want to pay them out of pocket. Nothing's going to prohibit it. Not yet, anyway.

2. One penny of taxes to whom? The guy who doesn't get insurance but could? He'll pay. That may not be me. But if he gets insurance, no tax--even if he's now spending $1200 because of the government that he wouldn't. Is government-driven behavior a tax? Depends on how strictly you want to define "tax."

I'm a teacher. My contract says I teach 187 days, and gives duty hours. Last year there was a required 4 day training I had to attend that wasn't part of the 187. This summer I'll be attending 10 1/2 days of trainings that aren't part of the 187. These really feel like unpaid work days. Some, strictly speaking, aren't required--but I have to get in X hours of training, and can do it after duty hours or during the summer. But, really, my contract says I teach 187 and gives my duty hours. They're not unpaid work days, not at all. These are mandatory volunteer days to satisfy conditions on my contract and state requirements. Not work days at all. And that doesn't count all the non-duty hours in lesson preparation, planning meetings, student tutoring, paper grading ... Depends how strictly you want to define your terms. And that reminds me, I have online training I have to do and need to prepare a couple of units' worth of lesson plans and materials for my team for the fall. Just part of being on vacation.

3. Obama said he would sign a bill that added even a dime to the deficit.
What deficit? If I make $20k/year and budget $25k for next year I'm $5k in the hole compared to income in I spend all $25k. That's a deficit. But if I spend $25k then I'm entirely on budget and there is no deficit. A deficit is when I spend more than budgeted.

Obama planned a 10-year budget that included $900 billion increases in federal health care spending. Any bill that says it'll spend more than that would add the deficit. Alternatively, you can figure out, given what he assumed revenues would be, how much of a deficit was assumed. Any bill that says it'll spend more than that, you add to that deficit. Different numbers, but notice the sleight of hand? I'm stressing over a small amount as you swallow a huge sum, you might say. No: You've accepted that what the bill says it'll spend is what's important, which is what Obama meant. You probably thought how much money will actually be spent over 10 years was important. Perhaps to some people. Not to Congress.

In fact, Obama's promise is incoherent the way people interpreted it. Unless the ACA became law, there'd be no way to know how much it spent/saved in 10 years. Who can model that to within 20% of the true number, much less a "dime"? And if we wait for 10 years to find out he lied--big honking yippee. But he even boasted that he kept his promise. Say what?

Congress wrote a bill. They had a handicap of $900 billion to play with over 10 years. They looked at projected expenses, minused $900 billion, and got a total. Then they pulled together projected savings and revenues and got a total. Savings/revenues had to be greater than expenses. If they weren't, that would be a deficit. Then they just found more revenuesor savings. "Say 60% of ER patients go their GP. Oops. We don't save enough. Okay, make it 70%. 75%? Okay, that's good." Revenues for health care were pulled from a range of fees and revene "enhancements": a black liquor tax deduction was fought over. Projected savings from the federal student loan program reorganization is a health-care revenue source. In the end the CBO said the assumptions were wrong. But in the end, the Congress wrote the figures into the bill and the CBO had to follow the language of the bill. Congress jiggered the numbers to come in under $900 billion in increased spending for 10 years, and so the bill didn't add one dime to the deficit. Then again, Romney retired in 1999 as of 2002, so we know there's a bit of a disconnect between the real world and what the legal niceties of a situation are.

No. Obama didn't lie. But his promise was vacuous. And absurdly easily misunderstood.

4. The ACA will strengthen Medicare, it says, and make it a better program.
As before, are you going to say the law lies? But "strengthen" and "better" are weasel words. You can find definitions that make it a lie or not. Foolish to argue either way.

"Hurt seniors." That's impossible to prove.

Process: Board sets cost for procedure. Medicare has to use that price unless Congress pays the difference by saving money some place else. Congress fails to do so, and as a result doctors don't order that procedure. Quick: Who's responsible? The independent board? Medicare regulators? Congress? Stingy taxpayers? Greedy doctors? Right. Distributed responsibility makes it hard to blame anybody. Esp. since a lot of the pain will result from increased health care costs.

Note that Medicare is also partially separately funded and partially funded with dedicated taxes. There is no "Medicare," there are parts to Medicare. Some are better off than others. Some intentionally wasn't included in the ACA; some is. Medicare gets screwed up, they can just point and say, "No, it's the funding that *wasn't* in the ACA that we're cutting." Go figure. They already did figure.

5. Obama knows what he meant. I assume. I certainly don't.

We already ration healthcare. I have a deductible, copays, the doctors are only in their offices so many hours and there are only so many in-network. It may not be a person saying, "You get 23.4 minutes of doctor face-time per year, can order 3 tests of no more than $100 this year ..." but it's rationing. Those without insurance have it rationed even more tightly. We ration food in the same way. If filet mignon were free demand would be huge and we'd need rationing. I can't afford it. Oops. It's already rationed. My ration is very close to 0. Who said rationing doesn't work?

Nobody thinks that the ACA says that everybody gets all the healthcare access they want. Where would all the doctors come from? We already were expecting a shortfall in GPs, now we're saying we'll have 30% more patients for them? We won't ration healthcare. But we certainly we will. It's just a question of how. Will we have bureaucrat-staffed boards reviewing each decision? "Great-aunt Mabel won't get her liver pills this month, Gertie can't have hospice care more than 4 months this year"? No. But there will be a way of making sure that only available staff and money are used. One way will be cutting payments to doctors. They can work harder.

A huge amount of government health-care money goes to a relatively small # of younger patients and a small % of elderly. You cut costs where you have expenses. You spend 70% on food and need to cut 10% of your budget, that remaining 30% covers a lot of ground--clothing, transportation, shelter, etc. You can't cut any or all of them by 33% to save that 10% without being naked or homeless. Similarly, superusers of health care will have to either take cuts or pay more, or the cost of the service will just have to go go down overall. Same output, more output, same pay. That's a chunk of the ACA.

When you're working and you need to make more faster, it's a speed-up. When you're waiting in line for your latte, you want the counter help to hurry and make more faster it's "better customer service." Let's just hope that the doctors don't form an actual union.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

My aunt on FB. Dammit. De-bunk help? [View all] Bertha Venation Jul 2012 OP
Simply swap out the "lie" and "truth" and there you are. Scootaloo Jul 2012 #1
Exactly. Scuba Jul 2012 #27
Don't bother. bowens43 Jul 2012 #2
Are you kidding? Dawgs Jul 2012 #28
I'm not able to do the research now, but good places to start are... CBHagman Jul 2012 #3
The new CBO report is out Lucy Goosey Jul 2012 #4
Come on, you know better than that.... Volaris Jul 2012 #24
Guilty as charged... Lucy Goosey Jul 2012 #32
here is one- Bluerthanblue Jul 2012 #5
about one in ten American employers have already said that they intend to discontinue... mike_c Jul 2012 #6
I found this Mojorabbit Jul 2012 #7
I am not sure if this is correct but it might be possible avebury Jul 2012 #8
You could start by asking her to support these claims with valid evidence n/t deutsey Jul 2012 #9
Yeah no kidding. If she wants to win the argument, make HER do the work. Volaris Jul 2012 #25
Healthcare.gov PADemD Jul 2012 #10
How can anyone lose their employer supplied health care? JohnnyRingo Jul 2012 #11
That's not quite right. Igel Jul 2012 #15
THANKS, EVERYONE! Bertha Venation Jul 2012 #12
hard to talk in handmade34 Jul 2012 #13
Zero is true Gman Jul 2012 #14
There's what your Aunt says, and there's reality OmahaBlueDog Jul 2012 #16
Great answers!!! I'm bookmarking for my own use later. Dawgs Jul 2012 #30
Excellent, just great. Thank you so much, OmahaBlueDog. Bertha Venation Jul 2012 #34
Truth: they provided no source or Incitatus Jul 2012 #17
You can't debunk it without figuring out what it means. Igel Jul 2012 #18
It's the 10th largest... JHB Jul 2012 #19
Thanks for mentioning that! CBHagman Jul 2012 #20
You might start with this link . . . markpkessinger Jul 2012 #21
Regarding taxes.... aikoaiko Jul 2012 #22
$2500 is too low for us too. Ilsa Jul 2012 #26
Yes, I agree. aikoaiko Jul 2012 #29
Employers have absolutely no requirement to provide health insurance now eridani Jul 2012 #23
Make them prove it since they put it out there as truth lunatica Jul 2012 #31
Thanks, lunatica Bertha Venation Jul 2012 #33
Latest Discussions»General Discussion»My aunt on FB. Dammit. ...»Reply #18