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ithinkmyliverhurts

(1,928 posts)
23. I don't think my post above implies
Thu Jul 26, 2012, 09:06 AM
Jul 2012

that a solution is given in Vol. 2; I simply say that it is ignored in his systematic undertaking of the problem. But Marx's solutions are always found in his critiques of the problem--in short, the problem has to go away to end alienation of the worker. An analysis of labor theory of value (and of surplus value) is crucial for this.

If one wants a pithy sentence in which Marx offers a simple solution, one will search in vain. The solution, however, is not simply deterministic. The final chapter of _CM_ makes this abundantly clear. Marx's sacastic treatment of hourly labor in Kapital Vol. 1 is great. If one can't see the unsustainability of the system here (and the immorality) then one isn't trying (not to accuse you of such things). Here's the link to section 10: http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch10.htm

I think we can divine a general solution to the problem laid out above (though Marxists obviously disagree on the specifics--not a homogeneous group). I love the last paragraph of section 10:

"It must be acknowledged that our labourer comes out of the process of production other than he entered. In the market he stood as owner of the commodity “labour-power” face to face with other owners of commodities, dealer against dealer. The contract by which he sold to the capitalist his labour-power proved, so to say, in black and white that he disposed of himself freely. The bargain concluded, it is discovered that he was no “free agent,” that the time for which he is free to sell his labour-power is the time for which he is forced to sell it, [163] that in fact the vampire will not lose its hold on him “so long as there is a muscle, a nerve, a drop of blood to be exploited.” [164] For “protection” against “the serpent of their agonies,” the labourers must put their heads together, and, as a class, compel the passing of a law, an all-powerful social barrier that shall prevent the very workers from selling, by voluntary contract with capital, themselves and their families into slavery and death. [165] In place of the pompous catalogue of the “inalienable rights of man” comes the modest Magna Charta of a legally limited working-day, which shall make clear “when the time which the worker sells is ended, and when his own begins.” Quantum mutatus ab illo! [What a great change from that time! – Virgil] [166]"

It may be a day or so before I can return to this. Thanks for the reply.

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0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

You've inspired me to investigate Marxism. I really don't know anything gateley Jul 2012 #1
This might be a good starting point.. cyberswede Jul 2012 #2
This is pretty heavy stuff but excellent. ithinkmyliverhurts Jul 2012 #3
Here is a good intro by Engles. The Principles of Communism. white_wolf Jul 2012 #8
Too bad it's not taught..really taught..as part of a history lesson. In depth, capitalism and nanabugg Jul 2012 #27
Hi can I ask why you call Senator Sanders a "capitalist"? limpyhobbler Jul 2012 #4
I will retract and apologize for this. ithinkmyliverhurts Jul 2012 #5
no need to apologize, just wondered what it meant to you limpyhobbler Jul 2012 #9
Sanders is a Social-Democrat. He supports capitalism... white_wolf Jul 2012 #7
Every Marxist has to support capitalism to some degree, ithinkmyliverhurts Jul 2012 #11
Well I see what you are saying, but... white_wolf Jul 2012 #12
yeah I guess that's about right limpyhobbler Jul 2012 #20
Don't conflate markets and private ownership with capitalism Scootaloo Jul 2012 #25
Isn't private ownership one of the defining traits of a capitalist economy? white_wolf Jul 2012 #40
Marx offered no 'solutions' to Capitalism - he analyzed it leftstreet Jul 2012 #6
Hmmm, I guess we'll just disagree here, but I'll try not to insult you. ithinkmyliverhurts Jul 2012 #10
That's not a solution, that's an inevitability leftstreet Jul 2012 #13
It's not simply a result. ithinkmyliverhurts Jul 2012 #14
Regarding your last two sentences. white_wolf Jul 2012 #16
They are Hegelian and not Marxists. ithinkmyliverhurts Jul 2012 #17
The Trotskist V Marxist-Leninist debates are insane. white_wolf Jul 2012 #19
I got POUNDED in my dialectical materialism seminar for taking a Hegelian position. lapislzi Jul 2012 #28
if you know they exist, why don't you quote marx on solutions rather than someone else's problematic HiPointDem Jul 2012 #18
I don't think my post above implies ithinkmyliverhurts Jul 2012 #23
saying the system is unsustainable isn't offering a 'solution'. Neither is a limit to the workday HiPointDem Jul 2012 #35
didnt marx & engels coin the phrase "dictatorship of the proletariat"? BOG PERSON Jul 2012 #26
The term (the Roman dictatura) didn't mean tyranny leftstreet Jul 2012 #37
it does sort of imply a transitional period BOG PERSON Jul 2012 #39
Can I ask how you get people to listen long enough to grasp the points without trying to refute HiPointDem Jul 2012 #15
Ask them if they w to give up their Marxist fire department eridani Jul 2012 #21
Marx is just plain Wrong econoclast Jul 2012 #22
Your understanding of the LTV is wrong. white_wolf Jul 2012 #24
Even a Dyslexic srjmsbnd Nov 2012 #41
good point BOG PERSON Jul 2012 #30
That Is Flat Nonesense, Sir The Magistrate Jul 2012 #32
I'm pretty sure Bog Person was being sarcastic. n/t. white_wolf Jul 2012 #33
If You Know The Person, Sir, I Will Take Your Word For It The Magistrate Jul 2012 #34
edit as i see it's sarcasm HiPointDem Jul 2012 #36
Go to the manufacturer not the mall srjmsbnd Nov 2012 #42
Unfortunately, Sir, Your Example Has Nothng To Do With Labor The Magistrate Jul 2012 #31
It takes 20 Years to throw a football srjmsbnd Nov 2012 #43
This message was self-deleted by its author srjmsbnd Nov 2012 #44
Capitalist Solipsistism srjmsbnd Nov 2012 #45
I haven't really studied Marx but Cleita Jul 2012 #29
I think you may be the smartest person deaniac21 Jul 2012 #38
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