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sl8

(17,109 posts)
81. Some recent developments
Tue Feb 27, 2018, 06:58 PM
Feb 2018

If you search for "Open Tip Match Hague", sans quotes, you' ll get some interesting stuff.
Here's one, from http://www.sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=1262

OPEN TIP MATCH: WHEN A “HOLLOW POINT” IS NOT A HOLLOW POINT
23 August, 2012 · Ammunition, History, V4N2
...

The 168-grain MatchKing was used by the winner in its debut at the 1959 Pan American Games and soon dominated centerfire rifle competition. Its broad acceptance and proven performance in competition and by civilian law enforcement agencies attests to its success. As described in this article, military interest in the MatchKing and other open tip match (OTM) bullets, including sniper use in combat, developed slowly due to misunderstandings that persist to this day.

The confusion began in 1899 at the First Hague Peace Conference, which adopted a Declaration Concerning Expanding Bullets in which governments agreed to abstain from military use of “…bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which do not entirely cover the core or is pierced with incisions [skiving].” The declaration was more political than humanitarian, targeting the British .303 caliber Mk. III cartridge with its AL 9402 hollow point bullet in part due to the British War against the Boers in South Africa, notwithstanding the fact that the Mk III was never employed in that conflict. Abstention in use of such bullets applied only between nations party to the declaration. If a nation party to the Hague Declaration fought the military forces of a nation that was not a party or “savages,” as non-government forces were referred to in colonial times, no prohibition existed against their use. Only thirty-four nations became parties to this treaty. During its negotiation Captain William Henry Crozier, Ordnance Corps, U.S. Army (subsequently Chief of Ordnance, 1901-1918), and U.S. delegation member, argued against the declaration’s condemnation-by-appearance vis-à-vis a bullet’s terminal ballistics relative to other contemporary military bullets. As will be seen, the error Captain Crozier criticized was repeated with respect to military adoption of the MatchKing and similar OTM bullets over the half century following its introduction. The United States is not a party to the Hague Declaration, but has acted consistent with it. Potential functioning reliability issues, particularly in machine guns, discouraged interest in projectile design other than FMJ standard ball. Lack of military interest evolved into an assumption by many that military use of “hollow point” projectiles is prohibited in all circumstances, regardless of design intent and terminal ballistics.
...


More at link.

Also, regarding hollow points in the service pistol, from https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2015/07/10/why-the-new-army-pistol-will-use-deadlier-hollow-point-ammunition/?utm_term=.0e18eecbc269


Why the new Army pistol will use deadlier hollow-point ammunition


By Thomas Gibbons-Neff July 10, 2015
...

Hollow-points are often more lethal because of the design of the bullet. It gives the bullet more surface area upon impact with the target, creating a larger wound cavity.

Jackson said the controversy around hollow points involves the Hague convention of 1899, which prohibited “bullets that easily expand or flatten in the body.” Jackson said he’s currently in the process of “myth busting” the notion that hollow points are somehow illegal to use in combat.

“Very few states have signed [the Hague Convention] and the United States is not one of them,” he said. “Law enforcement agencies use hollow points all over the world, so if it doesn’t violate the human rights standards that applies these days, why are we applying those standards on the battlefield?”

The United States does adhere to Article 23 of the Hague Convention of 1907, which says that it is forbidden “to employ arms, projectiles or material calculated to cause unnecessary suffering.” But Jackson said hollow points are actually more humane than conventional ball ammunition

...

More at link.


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Look out below Kingofalldems Feb 2018 #1
There is nothing stopping an AWB hack89 Feb 2018 #2
Yes. Thank you! n/t CousinIT Feb 2018 #3
AWBs addressed cosmetic features on semi-autos Adrahil Feb 2018 #17
Its worth a shot I guess hack89 Feb 2018 #19
Neither do I. We can't even get these assholes to ban bump stocks. Adrahil Feb 2018 #21
Cosmetic features, especially the pistol grip, were aimed at sales underpants Feb 2018 #30
A school shooter will not care.... Adrahil Feb 2018 #32
There are practical reasons for a pistol grip on a rifle hack89 Feb 2018 #40
The pistol grip is not cosmetic. Straw Man Feb 2018 #107
I do not use the term "assault weapon" any more than I have to derby378 Feb 2018 #4
What's Your Take On High Volume Magazines? ProfessorGAC Feb 2018 #5
Throw anything more than 10 rounds on the NFA class III list. Adrahil Feb 2018 #23
Sounds Reasonable To Me ProfessorGAC Feb 2018 #25
Well I'd put the guns on the list too. Adrahil Feb 2018 #34
Have To Start Somewhere ProfessorGAC Feb 2018 #37
Thanks! NT Adrahil Feb 2018 #89
"I do not use the term 'car' any more than I have to. LanternWaste Feb 2018 #8
No need to be confused. Adrahil Feb 2018 #18
Canada and every other nation on the planet has no problem with definitions or lists. Fred Sanders Feb 2018 #51
Please read carefully... Adrahil Feb 2018 #56
Guns are not only defined by their technical features, which gunners then ramble on and on Fred Sanders Feb 2018 #57
Good luck!!! Adrahil Feb 2018 #60
So you're OK with this? Straw Man Feb 2018 #105
Canadians do not face quite the draconian bans proposed here. appal_jack Feb 2018 #86
No. It is gun control, and not just lower mass shootings. ALL GUN Deaths. I see what u did there. Fred Sanders Feb 2018 #91
More important than that is... TwistOneUp Feb 2018 #61
Good point.... Adrahil Feb 2018 #62
Huh TwistOneUp Feb 2018 #72
The Hague conventions.... Adrahil Feb 2018 #73
Some recent developments sl8 Feb 2018 #81
Thanks for the update. NT Adrahil Feb 2018 #88
Assault ammo? Lol, Boris. Fred Sanders Feb 2018 #92
I prefer to call them "combat weapons" meow2u3 Feb 2018 #9
OKay.... then give it a technical definition. Adrahil Feb 2018 #20
A couple of things about that tweet ... sl8 Feb 2018 #6
Thanks for the clarification. Much appreciated. CousinIT Feb 2018 #47
This part is where I find the whole argument funny. Eko Feb 2018 #78
Funny, but not ha,ha funny. sl8 Feb 2018 #90
Ya, not ha ha funny at all. Eko Feb 2018 #106
Everyone is quibbling over the exact labels for these types of guns, but procon Feb 2018 #7
Magazine size zipplewrath Feb 2018 #10
We don't need labels or semantics. NewDem17 Feb 2018 #12
How do you propose doing any of that when the 2nd amendment makes your procon Feb 2018 #24
Easy. NewDem17 Feb 2018 #26
And only hand operated printed presses? Adrahil Feb 2018 #36
You can hunt NewDem17 Feb 2018 #39
That's an emotional appeal. Let me know how that goes at SCOTUS. NT Adrahil Feb 2018 #49
It already has Sailor65x1 Feb 2018 #55
Thats easily the worst argument Ive heard...and I dont think he was ridiculous at all. Canoe52 Feb 2018 #48
Well, good luck with that argument then. Let know when it wins. (Spoilers: It Won't) NT Adrahil Feb 2018 #50
Such an optimist! Canoe52 Feb 2018 #63
Optimism doesn't make policy. Adrahil Feb 2018 #64
You're shifting positions points out the fallacies in your argument. procon Feb 2018 #53
While I disagree with a total ban, you are 100% incorrect. ieoeja2 Feb 2018 #85
Methinks thou dost protest too much. maxsolomon Feb 2018 #42
A semi-automatic ban is completely unworkable... Baconator Feb 2018 #11
It is workable! NewDem17 Feb 2018 #13
Do you want to stay out of power for the next 50 years? Baconator Feb 2018 #14
YOUR party? Liberal In Texas Feb 2018 #15
Keep it together there V... Baconator Feb 2018 #22
Yes, just like the lawn dart squad did jberryhill Feb 2018 #31
Perhaps the Greatest Irony ProfessorGAC Feb 2018 #38
This message was self-deleted by its author Baconator Feb 2018 #65
It's been done in other countries NewDem17 Feb 2018 #16
Uh-huh maxsolomon Feb 2018 #45
How about doing what is right? Ban them all johnpowdy Feb 2018 #27
Australia did not "ban them all". There are plenty of legal guns in Australia. nt hack89 Feb 2018 #28
Nice try. maxsolomon Feb 2018 #44
Who said anything about confiscating them? jberryhill Feb 2018 #29
well, a few new posters said to ban and confiscate ALL guns maxsolomon Feb 2018 #54
That isn't limited to new posters by any means. Decoy of Fenris Feb 2018 #58
Repeal of the 2nd is more realistic than "Ban them All!" maxsolomon Feb 2018 #59
"Let people turn them in and if they don't they become a felon." Baconator Feb 2018 #66
Who was arrested over lawn darts? jberryhill Feb 2018 #68
You say that... for now... Baconator Feb 2018 #69
There are people who want a lot of tings jberryhill Feb 2018 #70
I'm against the concept of a ban in principle... Baconator Feb 2018 #74
Americans should have access to cribs, door glazing, and a lot of other things jberryhill Feb 2018 #80
We got better stuff... Baconator Feb 2018 #84
just gonna leave this here fescuerescue Feb 2018 #77
People list a lot of things on eBay jberryhill Feb 2018 #79
Actually there are tons of Lawn Darts available on Ebay fescuerescue Feb 2018 #82
Oh, good Politicub Feb 2018 #33
"Self defense" is bullshit. hunter Feb 2018 #35
Says someone who has, I suspect, never had to exercise it... Baconator Feb 2018 #67
You would be mistaken. hunter Feb 2018 #76
Just seems hypocritical for you to get the benefit of self defense... Baconator Feb 2018 #83
When did I ever get that "benefit" of self defense? hunter Feb 2018 #87
I'm just going off of what you said... Baconator Feb 2018 #93
I'm sure you have many glorious stories of people using guns for self defense. hunter Feb 2018 #94
Ok... So you haven't had to defend yourself... Baconator Feb 2018 #96
Oh for fucks sake. hunter Feb 2018 #97
That's a lot of talk with not very much content... Baconator Feb 2018 #98
And I say it's bullshit. hunter Feb 2018 #99
Any other rights you think should be dependant on whether or not... Baconator Feb 2018 #100
Yeah, I think it's fucked I can't own slaves anymore. ---sarcasm--- hunter Feb 2018 #101
Just working with what you're putting out there... Baconator Feb 2018 #102
Once the guns are gone then there will be nothing for these people to "defend" themselves from samir.g Feb 2018 #41
Right, because criminals who aren't allowed to have firearms already will turn em in? EX500rider Feb 2018 #75
Right. Straw Man Feb 2018 #104
This belongs in the Gungeon. n/t demmiblue Feb 2018 #43
A few of these posters belong in St. Petersburg maxsolomon Feb 2018 #46
YES...here to "sow discord" as Mueller said, not just to meddle in elections. Fred Sanders Feb 2018 #52
Guns that have features to "cool" the barrel should be illegal missingm Feb 2018 #71
What is a feature that cools a barrel? Straw Man Feb 2018 #103
Thats quite a pantload, actually. The ability to shoot multiple rounds quickly in a self defense... Marengo Feb 2018 #95
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