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In reply to the discussion: Couple things about the AR-15 and the alt-right & NRA-pimper arguments [View all]sl8
(17,109 posts)81. Some recent developments
If you search for "Open Tip Match Hague", sans quotes, you' ll get some interesting stuff.
Here's one, from http://www.sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=1262
OPEN TIP MATCH: WHEN A HOLLOW POINT IS NOT A HOLLOW POINT
23 August, 2012 · Ammunition, History, V4N2
...
The 168-grain MatchKing was used by the winner in its debut at the 1959 Pan American Games and soon dominated centerfire rifle competition. Its broad acceptance and proven performance in competition and by civilian law enforcement agencies attests to its success. As described in this article, military interest in the MatchKing and other open tip match (OTM) bullets, including sniper use in combat, developed slowly due to misunderstandings that persist to this day.
The confusion began in 1899 at the First Hague Peace Conference, which adopted a Declaration Concerning Expanding Bullets in which governments agreed to abstain from military use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which do not entirely cover the core or is pierced with incisions [skiving]. The declaration was more political than humanitarian, targeting the British .303 caliber Mk. III cartridge with its AL 9402 hollow point bullet in part due to the British War against the Boers in South Africa, notwithstanding the fact that the Mk III was never employed in that conflict. Abstention in use of such bullets applied only between nations party to the declaration. If a nation party to the Hague Declaration fought the military forces of a nation that was not a party or savages, as non-government forces were referred to in colonial times, no prohibition existed against their use. Only thirty-four nations became parties to this treaty. During its negotiation Captain William Henry Crozier, Ordnance Corps, U.S. Army (subsequently Chief of Ordnance, 1901-1918), and U.S. delegation member, argued against the declarations condemnation-by-appearance vis-à-vis a bullets terminal ballistics relative to other contemporary military bullets. As will be seen, the error Captain Crozier criticized was repeated with respect to military adoption of the MatchKing and similar OTM bullets over the half century following its introduction. The United States is not a party to the Hague Declaration, but has acted consistent with it. Potential functioning reliability issues, particularly in machine guns, discouraged interest in projectile design other than FMJ standard ball. Lack of military interest evolved into an assumption by many that military use of hollow point projectiles is prohibited in all circumstances, regardless of design intent and terminal ballistics.
...
23 August, 2012 · Ammunition, History, V4N2
...
The 168-grain MatchKing was used by the winner in its debut at the 1959 Pan American Games and soon dominated centerfire rifle competition. Its broad acceptance and proven performance in competition and by civilian law enforcement agencies attests to its success. As described in this article, military interest in the MatchKing and other open tip match (OTM) bullets, including sniper use in combat, developed slowly due to misunderstandings that persist to this day.
The confusion began in 1899 at the First Hague Peace Conference, which adopted a Declaration Concerning Expanding Bullets in which governments agreed to abstain from military use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which do not entirely cover the core or is pierced with incisions [skiving]. The declaration was more political than humanitarian, targeting the British .303 caliber Mk. III cartridge with its AL 9402 hollow point bullet in part due to the British War against the Boers in South Africa, notwithstanding the fact that the Mk III was never employed in that conflict. Abstention in use of such bullets applied only between nations party to the declaration. If a nation party to the Hague Declaration fought the military forces of a nation that was not a party or savages, as non-government forces were referred to in colonial times, no prohibition existed against their use. Only thirty-four nations became parties to this treaty. During its negotiation Captain William Henry Crozier, Ordnance Corps, U.S. Army (subsequently Chief of Ordnance, 1901-1918), and U.S. delegation member, argued against the declarations condemnation-by-appearance vis-à-vis a bullets terminal ballistics relative to other contemporary military bullets. As will be seen, the error Captain Crozier criticized was repeated with respect to military adoption of the MatchKing and similar OTM bullets over the half century following its introduction. The United States is not a party to the Hague Declaration, but has acted consistent with it. Potential functioning reliability issues, particularly in machine guns, discouraged interest in projectile design other than FMJ standard ball. Lack of military interest evolved into an assumption by many that military use of hollow point projectiles is prohibited in all circumstances, regardless of design intent and terminal ballistics.
...
More at link.
Also, regarding hollow points in the service pistol, from https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2015/07/10/why-the-new-army-pistol-will-use-deadlier-hollow-point-ammunition/?utm_term=.0e18eecbc269
Why the new Army pistol will use deadlier hollow-point ammunition
By Thomas Gibbons-Neff July 10, 2015
...
Hollow-points are often more lethal because of the design of the bullet. It gives the bullet more surface area upon impact with the target, creating a larger wound cavity.
Jackson said the controversy around hollow points involves the Hague convention of 1899, which prohibited bullets that easily expand or flatten in the body. Jackson said hes currently in the process of myth busting the notion that hollow points are somehow illegal to use in combat.
Very few states have signed [the Hague Convention] and the United States is not one of them, he said. Law enforcement agencies use hollow points all over the world, so if it doesnt violate the human rights standards that applies these days, why are we applying those standards on the battlefield?
The United States does adhere to Article 23 of the Hague Convention of 1907, which says that it is forbidden to employ arms, projectiles or material calculated to cause unnecessary suffering. But Jackson said hollow points are actually more humane than conventional ball ammunition
...
More at link.
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Couple things about the AR-15 and the alt-right & NRA-pimper arguments [View all]
CousinIT
Feb 2018
OP
Canada and every other nation on the planet has no problem with definitions or lists.
Fred Sanders
Feb 2018
#51
Guns are not only defined by their technical features, which gunners then ramble on and on
Fred Sanders
Feb 2018
#57
No. It is gun control, and not just lower mass shootings. ALL GUN Deaths. I see what u did there.
Fred Sanders
Feb 2018
#91
Thats easily the worst argument Ive heard...and I dont think he was ridiculous at all.
Canoe52
Feb 2018
#48
Well, good luck with that argument then. Let know when it wins. (Spoilers: It Won't) NT
Adrahil
Feb 2018
#50
Australia did not "ban them all". There are plenty of legal guns in Australia. nt
hack89
Feb 2018
#28
Americans should have access to cribs, door glazing, and a lot of other things
jberryhill
Feb 2018
#80
Once the guns are gone then there will be nothing for these people to "defend" themselves from
samir.g
Feb 2018
#41
Right, because criminals who aren't allowed to have firearms already will turn em in?
EX500rider
Feb 2018
#75
YES...here to "sow discord" as Mueller said, not just to meddle in elections.
Fred Sanders
Feb 2018
#52