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cthulu2016

(10,960 posts) Sat Jul 28, 2012, 04:05 PM Jul 2012

ACLU: Blocking Chick-fil-A unconstitutional Viewpoint Discrimination [View all]

Last edited Sun Jul 29, 2012, 03:52 AM - Edit history (6)

I am posting this because the ACLU is right in this instance and it is important for folks to understand why they are right.

"Viewpoint Discrimination" is an important concept.

Viewpoint is not the same as illegal actions. No business can break the law, regardless of the owner's opinions. A business cannot engage in illegal discrimination, for instance, no matter what the owner thinks.

But the government cannot discriminate against a person or business or church or school or other entity based on their point of view. This came up recently in the case of a state giving an extra tax-break for contributions to charities that benefit the inner city, but specifically excluding Planned Parenthood services that otherwise met the criteria for the tax break.

-Can a town in Alabama deny business permits to a Disney store because Disney provides partner benefits to gay employees?

-Can a zoning board in Texas allow construction of churches but block construction of mosques? Subject businesses that donate to Planned Parenthood to a higher level of zoning scrutiny?

-Can a state require that candidates take The Pledge of Allegiance, or even the Norquist Tax Pledge, in order to be on the ballot? That is, barring candidates based on whether the candidate holds certain views.

-Can a school provide meeting space for the Young Republicans Club, but deny meeting space to the Young Democrats Club?

Although the ACLU strongly supports same-sex marriage, a senior attorney for the American Civil Liberties Union of Illinois warned that if Chicago bans Chick-fil-A over the religious views of its management, it will be engaging in "viewpoint discrimination," Fox News reported Thursday.

“The government can regulate discrimination in employment or against customers, but what the government cannot do is to punish someone for their words,” said ACLU senior attorney Adam Schwartz. “When an alderman refuses to allow a business to open because its owner has expressed a viewpoint the government disagrees with, the government is practicing viewpoint discrimination,” he added.

...

Chicago Alderman Proco Joe Moreno said he intends to block the chain from opening its second Chicago location over president Dan Cathy's position on gay marriage. Chicago Mayor Rahm Emmanuel supports Moreno's position.

Schwartz explained to Fox that "if a government can exclude a business for being against same-sex marriage, it can also exclude a business for being in support of same-sex marriage."

Read more: http://www.examiner.com/article/aclu-attorney-blocking-chick-fil-a-over-gay-marriage-viewpoint-discrimination

UPDATE: As Prosense helpfully notes below, Alderman Moreno and Mayor Emmanuel have since backed off their position, saying that Chick-fil-a would be treated the same as any other business seeking to open a location in Chicago.

162 replies

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ACLU: Blocking Chick-fil-A unconstitutional Viewpoint Discrimination [View all] cthulu2016 Jul 2012 OP

I have been uncomfortable with this since the beginning. TalkingDog Jul 2012 #1

A few updates: ProSense Jul 2012 #2

Will they hire gays? vanlassie Jul 2012 #3

I would expect the scrutiny to be high, in this case. cthulu2016 Jul 2012 #8

Yes, "they" do. WillowTree Jul 2012 #12

This is very inaccuate information. Chick fil A Corporation retains ownership of all locations Bluenorthwest Jul 2012 #143

Hmmmm. Good point. I suppose that's true. nt Honeycombe8 Jul 2012 #4

Good point. Damned good point. Zalatix Jul 2012 #5

When you're hating on people for their genetic differences... Comrade_McKenzie Jul 2012 #6

The government can ban discriminatory hiring cthulu2016 Jul 2012 #7

Right. Let them come, then force them vanlassie Jul 2012 #9

That is where ProSense Jul 2012 #21

The first three points are not matters of fact, they are simply not true in most States Bluenorthwest Jul 2012 #132

But in a majority of States it is legal to discriminate against gay people in employment and Bluenorthwest Jul 2012 #131

The ACLU has to be like that. Dash87 Jul 2012 #128

A little creativity could go a LONG way here. annabanana Jul 2012 #10

True! There's one down the street from where I work NashvilleLefty Jul 2012 #11

Brilliant!! WillowTree Jul 2012 #14

What? Are you totally unfamiliar with their company? boppers Jul 2012 #112

Heaven forbid that people should have one day a week... WillowTree Jul 2012 #115

Is there anything you will criticize Chick-fil-A for? Bolo Boffin Jul 2012 #124

The point is that the franchisee knew going in that CfA was religiously oriented.. Fumesucker Jul 2012 #127

Franchisees of Chick fil A are not owners, they are operators with zero equity share. Bluenorthwest Jul 2012 #145

In Chicago, Chick-fil-A cannot get a zoning variance because Bolo Boffin Jul 2012 #13

Not sure where you're getting your information. There's already at least one Chick-fil-a in Chicago WillowTree Jul 2012 #16

They want a zoning variance to build a parking lot next door to a second, but won't sign Bolo Boffin Jul 2012 #38

There is nothing at your link supporting what you posted. former9thward Jul 2012 #66

Bullshit. Read what I posted again. n/t Bolo Boffin Jul 2012 #80

Bullshit back at you. former9thward Jul 2012 #85

Me: "They also lied to Moreno's face for nine months about their discriminatory practices" Bolo Boffin Jul 2012 #93

You are the only one misrepresenting things here. former9thward Jul 2012 #151

Damn, I showed you the quote that backed up what I said and you're still insisting I'm wrong. Bolo Boffin Jul 2012 #156

I am not letting you change the goalposts. former9thward Jul 2012 #160

You are the one changing the goalposts, pardner. Bolo Boffin Jul 2012 #161

Bullshit yourself! WillowTree Jul 2012 #89

Their lawyers lied to Alderman Moreno's face for nine months. Bolo Boffin Jul 2012 #94

Oh details, details!! WillowTree Jul 2012 #81

I've shown former9thward misrepresented me. I'll take your apology, too. Bolo Boffin Jul 2012 #98

No such apology is forthcoming, but nice try. WillowTree Jul 2012 #101

Typical. n/t Bolo Boffin Jul 2012 #103

What standard form. There is nothing about that in the article. Luminous Animal Jul 2012 #87

I question the validity of the case... DearAbby Jul 2012 #15

But the franchise owners do have constitutional rights. WillowTree Jul 2012 #17

They have the rights we the people granted them DearAbby Jul 2012 #18

That's a straw man comparison. WillowTree Jul 2012 #22

Discriminatory to whom? DearAbby Jul 2012 #23

But they can't zone against one fast food establishment when they allow others. WillowTree Jul 2012 #24

Why not? What if the council decide 3 chicken joints DearAbby Jul 2012 #26

You're really making this up as you go along, aren't you? WillowTree Jul 2012 #28

Ah, that is not exactly true.... Bluenorthwest Jul 2012 #133

Then, do you support those who objected to the building of the Mosque in NYC? sabrina 1 Jul 2012 #30

Freedom of Religion is a different issue DearAbby Jul 2012 #32

The question is how much should Government interfere in private matters, business or otherwise. sabrina 1 Jul 2012 #36

People have the right to be private... DearAbby Jul 2012 #47

I don't think anyone is disputing any of that. sabrina 1 Jul 2012 #62

How's that project coming btw? Funding in place? aquart Jul 2012 #111

Seems to be coming along fine. They opened for business in September of last year sabrina 1 Jul 2012 #116

The problem is ProSense Jul 2012 #19

I agree with your last sentence and raised that question in the case of the Church that refused sabrina 1 Jul 2012 #31

So if the Government shut down DemocraticUnderground LLC for no reason, Nye Bevan Jul 2012 #123

I agree. Beacool Jul 2012 #20

No one is denied freedom of speech DearAbby Jul 2012 #25

So far no one's succeeded in denying you the right to respond. WillowTree Jul 2012 #27

True. DearAbby Jul 2012 #33

Reading comprehension issues, I see. WillowTree Jul 2012 #34

Back at cha DearAbby Jul 2012 #41

It certainly does matter... meaculpa2011 Jul 2012 #117

Take Chicago. Bolo Boffin Jul 2012 #120

it might seem a fine point, but... MNBrewer Jul 2012 #39

McCarthy was human...He denied Human beings their constitutional right DearAbby Jul 2012 #42

Is Planned Parenthood a person? cthulu2016 Jul 2012 #114

So answer the question.. Missycim Jul 2012 #162

He is the president of the company. Beacool Jul 2012 #69

If it was his 'beliefs' we'd not even know them. It is about his public statements and press Bluenorthwest Jul 2012 #134

Public statements are speech cthulu2016 Jul 2012 #144

Yep and he is free to it. The other poster claimed it was his 'belifes' not his speech that Bluenorthwest Jul 2012 #146

I disagree with you in one regard. Beacool Jul 2012 #149

The same ACLU that defended Citizens United. Odin2005 Jul 2012 #29

Exactly...re-enforce it with DearAbby Jul 2012 #35

This is not about blocking a business from entering the marketplace based on zoning, environmental, Luminous Animal Jul 2012 #43

"because of the personal view points of the owner." When that owner's lawyers had lied Bolo Boffin Jul 2012 #46

Does Chick-fil-a discriminate in its hiring and serving practices? Luminous Animal Jul 2012 #48

Why, as a matter of fact, yes. Bolo Boffin Jul 2012 #52

Funny that Morena, Rahm, et. al., forgot to mention that they intended to block Luminous Animal Jul 2012 #58

That's Moreno's point, Luminous. He brought up their bigotry again and again. Bolo Boffin Jul 2012 #61

I haven't read anything from Greenwald about this case. Discrimination is a legitimate reason to Luminous Animal Jul 2012 #65

And both Moreno and Rahm Emmanuel have backed-off their objections. WillowTree Jul 2012 #72

You asked for ONE, JUST ONE discrimination case. And I gave you one. Bolo Boffin Jul 2012 #78

What was the lie again? WillowTree Jul 2012 #91

"And please don't bring up the case in Georgia again." Bolo Boffin Jul 2012 #95

Would you ban Starbuck's? meaculpa2011 Jul 2012 #118

Starbuck's doesn't have the record of supporting anti-human rights organizations Bolo Boffin Jul 2012 #119

In what way is Chick-fil-a a discriminatory organization? WillowTree Jul 2012 #51

$5 million to anti-gay groups like Exodus International Bolo Boffin Jul 2012 #53

Sorry, no. WillowTree Jul 2012 #57

I cited you a gender discrimination case against Chick-fil-A Bolo Boffin Jul 2012 #59

I'll grant you your example of ONE franchisee being sued for apparent gender discrimination. WillowTree Jul 2012 #64

BEEEP BEEEP BEEEP Goalposts coming through. Bolo Boffin Jul 2012 #77

WillowTree is not defending Chick-fil-a. Willow tree is defending the First Amendment. Luminous Animal Jul 2012 #83

Yeah? DearAbby Jul 2012 #56

Retaliation for speech is a violation of a person's Constitutional rights. Luminous Animal Jul 2012 #82

Your reiterated assertion that a business is not a person is wrong, both legally and as bad policy. Jim Lane Jul 2012 #88

So, you'd support the decision of a locality to withhold permits because the owner TheKentuckian Jul 2012 #129

Hopefully you will never be the unpopular guy Nye Bevan Jul 2012 #125

The Constitution promies equal protection under the law and yet millions of us are not allowed Bluenorthwest Jul 2012 #136

The ACLU was acting within their narrow mission and focus, Odin. TheKentuckian Jul 2012 #130

So strip clubs and sex shops can be placed wherever because to disallow it is MNBrewer Jul 2012 #37

So, you are saying that this talk of blocking Chick-fil-a is just a misunderstanding Luminous Animal Jul 2012 #40

If zoning is = viewpoint discrimination MNBrewer Jul 2012 #44

So looking forward to you supporting a business being banned by a right-wing mayor for Luminous Animal Jul 2012 #45

I'm not saying it's A O K... MNBrewer Jul 2012 #49

Actually, zoning laws apply to manufacturing, restaurants, liquor stores, churches, etc. Luminous Animal Jul 2012 #63

I think the distinction is without a difference. MNBrewer Jul 2012 #68

A business DearAbby Jul 2012 #50

This issue is not about business practices but about the personal speech. Luminous Animal Jul 2012 #54

Your patronizing KFC instead of Chick-fil-a does not prevent Chick-fil-a from doing business. WillowTree Jul 2012 #67

We are not obligated to grant a license to any DearAbby Jul 2012 #70

Huh? That is simply not true. A city cannot block the license of a corner grocer who is Muslim then Luminous Animal Jul 2012 #73

Ahem. The corporation's lawyers LIED TO MORENO'S FACE. FOR NINE MONTHS. Bolo Boffin Jul 2012 #79

Even Moreno doesn't make that claim. He claims that they were making progress until Cathy's Luminous Animal Jul 2012 #86

Bullshit. The nine months of supposed progress was shown to be a lie by Cathy. Bolo Boffin Jul 2012 #96

Nonsense. WillowTree Jul 2012 #90

I got $5 million of ways they discriminate against the LGBT community with corporate money. Bolo Boffin Jul 2012 #97

Yeah, well that $5M is what's called protected political speech. WillowTree Jul 2012 #100

Forbes Magazine, July 2007: Chick-fil-A has been sued 12 times since 1988. Bolo Boffin Jul 2012 #102

You get to speak, I get to speak. Funny how that works. WillowTree Jul 2012 #104

LOL. I just proved your posts full of the most incredible wankery. Bolo Boffin Jul 2012 #105

"They can be denied for whatever reason." WillowTree Jul 2012 #76

That analogy is Flawed cthulu2016 Jul 2012 #108

This message was self-deleted by its author bupkus Jul 2012 #55

Libertarians are people, too. Bolo Boffin Jul 2012 #60

This message was self-deleted by its author bupkus Jul 2012 #74

I am so looking forward to you defending any rightwing mayor that suggests Luminous Animal Jul 2012 #75

This is a red meat issue for RWers. I don't know why the left is walking into the trap. Monk06 Jul 2012 #71

Good point. emilyg Jul 2012 #84

The ACLU is correct. nt Skip Intro Jul 2012 #92

Good. Once open, let the people decide if they want to eat there. appleannie1 Jul 2012 #99

This message was self-deleted by its author bupkus Jul 2012 #157

Here's how you get 'em--you persuade a bunch of gay or gay-friendly or non-religious people MADem Jul 2012 #106

In 2007, the application process was a year long. Bolo Boffin Jul 2012 #107

They need to find applicants who have the best qualifications in terms of MADem Jul 2012 #109

A couple of married lesbian owner/operators would be nice, too. Bolo Boffin Jul 2012 #110

Sounds good to me! MADem Jul 2012 #113

Franchisees of Chick fil A are not owners, they are operators with zero equity share. Bluenorthwest Jul 2012 #148

Yeah, I shouldn't have said owner. Bolo Boffin Jul 2012 #158

Sue them for what? In most States, it is perfectly legal to discriminate against gay people Bluenorthwest Jul 2012 #138

Everyone loves the ACLU until they defend the rights of unpopular people (nt) Nye Bevan Jul 2012 #121

Hard for me to buy that a very wealthy CEO with full rights is 'unpopular' while the minority group Bluenorthwest Jul 2012 #137

Can Non-Christians have a different day off? HockeyMom Jul 2012 #122

CEOs are public figures of a sort, aren't they? randome Jul 2012 #126

The public doesn't have to and shouldn't. The law is a different matter. TheKentuckian Jul 2012 #135

Exactly right. Curtland1015 Jul 2012 #139

".......nary a one will even answer the opposite scenario......." Exactly! WillowTree Jul 2012 #140

And how easy it is to clearly state that what the government is not allowed to do is not the Bluenorthwest Jul 2012 #141

I see a difference. randome Jul 2012 #142

that is the very definition of viewpoint discrimination dsc Jul 2012 #147

I understand your point but I don't agree. randome Jul 2012 #150

But again, Chick-Fil-A isn't excluding gays. Curtland1015 Jul 2012 #154

Privileged perspective is a logical fallacy TheKentuckian Jul 2012 #155

Nicely written cthulu2016 Jul 2012 #159

Tell this to the abortion providers in red states. Sirveri Jul 2012 #152

Incoherent. cthulu2016 Jul 2012 #153