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Major Nikon

(36,925 posts)
16. Many did, and that's the problem
Mon Jan 2, 2012, 12:49 PM
Jan 2012

When Dworkin would try to reel in her statements later when they proved too controversial(which was her intent in the first place), she was wholly unbelievable. Yes, Dworkin tried to claim later that what she meant was all men are potential rapists, but don't have to be that way. I read the book. There was no way you could derive any other intent from what she wrote. What Dworkin meant was that the western idea of heterosexual sex (which she called "fucking&quot was essentially rape. A good part and perhaps the entire book was her idea of a proof of that assertion. So yes, perhaps that doesn't really mean that "all men are rapists", but it's close enough to be effectively the same. As a literary major, Dworkin would have or should have known that. Furthermore Dworkin wasn't alone as she had quite a number of disciples that preached her gospel just as if it were the inspired word of god. Certainly there were feminists who didn't hold such views, and lots of them. The problem was not enough spoke up to contradict her and even if they did they weren't getting nearly the press she was because the blowhards of our society always get more attention than the intellectuals.

The example of the man who thought men should be entitled to something in return for their $200 subscribe to what I call the "all women are whores" mentality. I'm not going to argue that attitude is not pervasive in our society. Yes it is wrong. Yes that attitude is extremely destructive. Evidence of this is easy to find. Rape is epidemic. Rape convictions account for about 5% of all rape, by some accounts. Perhaps the number isn't that low and perhaps it is, but I don't think you'll find anyone who will say the number isn't extremely lopsided and this includes a great number of cases where arrests are involved, but never reach conviction and the number of cases that go to trial and result in acquittal. So it's pretty evident (at least to me) that the "all women are whores" mentality is pretty well entrenched in our society. And yes you are right in that this attitude is very extreme, however it is far closer to the mainstream mentality and as such far less controversial. If a man wrote a pseudo-scientific book with this as the theme it's doubtful he'd ever get published. Regardless of all this, the counter to that mentality is not "all men are rapists".

So yes, Dworkin might have been calling attention to a very serious problem, and yes she was right in that much of our culture needed to change in order to address that problem. However, she also held very extreme views that were very far removed from reality, much less the mainstream. I suspect that much victimization in her past helped form those ideas. She was perceived by the public as a man hater, and that's exactly what she was. As such it was her most extreme statements and ideas that made the press and turned her into a very controversial figure. It also made her a target, and a very easy one. It also made her the face of feminism, whether she represented the whole of them or not, and in that way she set back the cause of feminism significantly as extreme radicals often do. It caused many women to not want to be associated with feminism of any kind. It caused many to believe that the conservative idea of how women should be treated wasn't all that bad. It gave half-wits like Limbaugh and Coulter(themselves blowhard extremists) an endless stream of material to draw from. It didn't even matter to them that Dworkin crawled in bed with Ed Meese. To them she was the poster woman of what was wrong with feminism, and it was very easy for them to put all feminists on board with her.

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This is a piece I thought was quite good: PeaceNikki Jan 2012 #1
It's embarrasing to be a man sometimes , orpupilofnature57 Jan 2012 #2
breath of fresh air. thank you seabeyond Jan 2012 #3
Rape jokes are no laughing matter Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #4
This message was self-deleted by its author seabeyond Jan 2012 #5
That is true for some feminists Major Nikon Jan 2012 #13
Equating all feminists with Andrea Dworkin Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #14
Many did, and that's the problem Major Nikon Jan 2012 #16
And I would say that you were contributing to that problem Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #21
in ALL my years i never heard one woman say all sex was rape. never. heard. one. woman say it. BUT seabeyond Jan 2012 #24
When I read "Intercourse" by Dworkin, I did get a little different message than you Nikia Jan 2012 #28
that is exactly what that poster was saying. only men defended him saying he was not saying all seabeyond Jan 2012 #17
Yes DeathToTheOil Jan 2012 #12
Not trying to deny the "men's culture" that exists. randome Jan 2012 #22
here is the problem. this is not mere "horrible behavior". it is an undercurrent seabeyond Jan 2012 #25
Statistically your post is bullshit. Depending on the study, approximately 25% of women are raped riderinthestorm Jan 2012 #27
needs pinning at top of Forum getdown Jan 2012 #6
We live in a patriarchy and it permeates every facet of our lives riderinthestorm Jan 2012 #7
+1,000,000,000,000,000,000 Odin2005 Jan 2012 #8
I can't truly imagine how a Woman feels that is raped. It brings up... BlueJazz Jan 2012 #9
I would disagree with you generalization of title for the thread jimlup Jan 2012 #10
Of course men are oppressed in our society -- thanks to the very patriarchy that oppresses Remember Me Jan 2012 #11
Suggested reading and viewing Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #15
this shot of the video is another point. for a year or two, i have noticed many videos seabeyond Jan 2012 #19
No, I have no control over what's shown in the imbedding. Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #23
interesting. i wonder if that is true with all embedding, and it is always a provocative shot of seabeyond Jan 2012 #26
by the way, i watched this before. she is very good. the video is very good. nt seabeyond Jan 2012 #20
"naive" getdown Jan 2012 #18
Just posted this in LBN> Survivoreesta Jan 2012 #29
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