General Discussion

lapfog_1

(31,920 posts)

63. That's a long time.

Wed Jul 4, 2018, 05:20 PM

Jul 2018

very long. even in water that isn't that deep (column of water on top of you speaking, which determines how much air you use from your air tanks).

They have three options...

1. Train the kids to become good (enough) cave divers.

2. drill a hole down to the kids and winch them out.

3. wait for the water to recede / pump it out and hike them out.

Variables that determine the course of action:

How safe are they where they are at... or can they be ferried to a safer spot that survives a bad monsoon rain?
How fast can you drill (what is the depth, what is the surface terrain where they are located, roads, etc)?
Is is possible to get pumps in place and empty the cave enough to hike out?
How fast can they be sufficiently trained to attempt a dive rescue?

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If they teach the Thai kids to dive to get them out of the caves they should [View all] applegrove Jul 2018 OP

Experts are talking about waiting until Ilsa Jul 2018 #1

There is a worry that it being the start of monsoon season they might not applegrove Jul 2018 #3

I'll go with whatever guidance the doctors actually with them are recommending. brooklynite Jul 2018 #15

They are not American kids. former9thward Jul 2018 #160

Right. No one in other countries experiences anxiety, Ilsa Jul 2018 #168

Anxiety is normal. former9thward Jul 2018 #171

And the concern is that anxiety becomes panic, Ilsa Jul 2018 #172

Who argued they are in fact, American kids? LanternWaste Jul 2018 #194

Why don't they tag team each of the kids (put 2 experienced cave persons w/ ... SWBTATTReg Jul 2018 #2

I'm guessing it would require cave certified divers and the kids would have to trained to scuba div CentralMass Jul 2018 #5

2 to 3 km, not miles. Still bad, but only 2/3 as bad as 2 to 3 miles: tblue37 Jul 2018 #103

CNN reported that it is an 11 hour round trip to see the boys. CentralMass Jul 2018 #139

It is 5km, which is 3 miles approx. Tipperary Jul 2018 #146

Yeah, the first couple of BBC articles I read said 2-3 km. The more recent ones tblue37 Jul 2018 #155

I get the impression canetoad Jul 2018 #6

How about the potential digging area ? JI7 Jul 2018 #27

Found this on the BBC canetoad Jul 2018 #71

thanks for the map... and I note that I was correct in a later post in this thread lapfog_1 Jul 2018 #47

Wow! I'm kind of envious canetoad Jul 2018 #78

if you are still in decent shape... and can swim 200 yards without a snorkel lapfog_1 Jul 2018 #82

Some people can't get past the fear of being underwater Ms. Toad Jul 2018 #93

You have to slip through with a tank in front of you, not on your back... elehhhhna Jul 2018 #101

Thanks for posting.. disillusioned73 Jul 2018 #154

Yes but if the kids panic they could easily drown. And they could take the master diver applegrove Jul 2018 #8

they are thinking of digging down... lame54 Jul 2018 #80

Drugged kids diving is a very bad idea. Ms. Toad Jul 2018 #94

I mean meds. applegrove Jul 2018 #108

It doesn't matter what you call it. ANY mind altering med, Ms. Toad Jul 2018 #133

I think poster is trying to suggest non-sedative drugs like beta blockers--likewise with risks hlthe2b Jul 2018 #167

Experienced divers will not be able to be side by side nor closer tha five feet from them... hlthe2b Jul 2018 #83

It took experts 90 minutes of diving to get to them janterry Jul 2018 #4

That is a grown man going fast. It will take hours for the kids. applegrove Jul 2018 #11

That's a long time. lapfog_1 Jul 2018 #63

If they stay what are the risks of no sanitation...? elehhhhna Jul 2018 #114

I think you don't realize how alert they will have to be to get out... hlthe2b Jul 2018 #7

They can be really specific with the drugs that will not reduce alertness but suppresses applegrove Jul 2018 #9

NO! hlthe2b Jul 2018 #29

Of course they need training. But they also need meds that calm fear and do not affect applegrove Jul 2018 #31

I could not disagree more and I'm a medical professional hlthe2b Jul 2018 #32

I'm on meds for ptsd. I know how it feels to be medicated not to fear. I am alert. applegrove Jul 2018 #36

ridicuous... these are healthy teens and they don't need drugs they need training hlthe2b Jul 2018 #41

The South American miners who were rescued by drilling a few years ago had to wait 2 months. applegrove Jul 2018 #46

and they should receive treatment afterwards as necessary. hlthe2b Jul 2018 #50

Fighter pilots are on drugs when in combat. applegrove Jul 2018 #52

they receive stimulants not sedatives!!!!!!! hlthe2b Jul 2018 #53

My point is meds can be a weapon. We don't want those kids to panic applegrove Jul 2018 #55

Training is what will prevent panic, not dulling drugs which are intensely dangerous! hlthe2b Jul 2018 #57

I keep saying I am not suggesting zombie drugs. applegrove Jul 2018 #60

and I keep telling you that drugs have side effects including on blood pressure. hlthe2b Jul 2018 #62

I'm not offended. I think you are being trite there. On you. applegrove Jul 2018 #64

Ok.. when the insults start flying, I'm out of here. hlthe2b Jul 2018 #66

what happens if one of the kids has a bad reaction to your proposed anti-anxiety drug? lapfog_1 Jul 2018 #67

I think you meant to post that to applegrove. hlthe2b Jul 2018 #68

I was agreeing with you.. lapfog_1 Jul 2018 #70

but you said "your" proposed medication" and I'm arguing vehemently against meds.. hlthe2b Jul 2018 #73

oh, sorry... got carried away lapfog_1 Jul 2018 #76

No problem... thanks for your comments. hlthe2b Jul 2018 #77

Beta blockers lower blood pressure, but also reduce anxiety. smirkymonkey Jul 2018 #117

Yes...that is why I mentioned them specifically, but the changes on blood pressure could be hlthe2b Jul 2018 #149

Normal levels of fear and anxiety can be useful as well. Chemisse Jul 2018 #157

Yeah, i guess astronauts ought to be drugged too. Tipperary Jul 2018 #100

How bizarre to want to give healthy kids drugs. Tipperary Jul 2018 #156

This is not "scuba diving." This is cave diving for children who do not even know how to swim. Tipperary Jul 2018 #59

I guess we'll have to disagree. applegrove Jul 2018 #61

I guess you think firefighters and soldiers should be given meds too? Tipperary Jul 2018 #72

I'm talking about kids in a really difficult situation. I mean meds. Maybe my use of the term drugs applegrove Jul 2018 #110

LOL!!! YES Drugs were the answer. You need to apologize! nt USALiberal Jul 2018 #182

Well, that is EXACTLY what they did!!! Sedated them! nt USALiberal Jul 2018 #176

And at least two were severely hypothermic and at least one seriously bradycardic as a result They hlthe2b Jul 2018 #184

LOL, ok. nt USALiberal Jul 2018 #185

Seems you were wrong. SixString Jul 2018 #179

And at least two were severely hypothermic and at least one seriously bradycardic as a result hlthe2b Jul 2018 #183

Ahh, no! You said "would be deadly" which it was not. Just admit you were wrong. nt USALiberal Jul 2018 #188

Bradycardia and hypothermia IS deadly. They were well monitored. That doesn't make it SAFE hlthe2b Jul 2018 #189

I am praying that a solution to get them out quickly can be found... SWBTATTReg Jul 2018 #10

Yes. I'm sure the solution will be a combination of things and brilliant. For applegrove Jul 2018 #14

I feel panicky just thinking about the whole situation. milestogo Jul 2018 #12

I know. I'm on calming meds for ptsd and even I can hardly stand it. applegrove Jul 2018 #16

Is there anything worse than being trapped? milestogo Jul 2018 #56

Heights get me. I'm a waterbaby so I would love to dive out a passage applegrove Jul 2018 #58

Just thinking about it is making me almost hyperventilate. smirkymonkey Jul 2018 #118

Unless I missed it: how did they get in there? CurtEastPoint Jul 2018 #13

Walked in iirc. Then it started raining. MissB Jul 2018 #35

They have discussed drilling holes to reach the kids murielm99 Jul 2018 #17

I think describing this as a cave is a bit Phoenix61 Jul 2018 #18

At one place it is that narrow. In other parts it is much wider and is a cave. applegrove Jul 2018 #22

Way more than in one place. Tipperary Jul 2018 #75

I would expect that there are very long passages within that cave system. lapfog_1 Jul 2018 #34

almost all cave systems are tunnels underground... with the occasional chamber lapfog_1 Jul 2018 #79

Exactly. cwydro Jul 2018 #96

Yeah. Hassin Bin Sober Jul 2018 #159

I spent time as a teenager in Missouri lapfog_1 Jul 2018 #161

Oh, I just asked why they can't use a submersible. I guess this is why. nt Laffy Kat Jul 2018 #137

My guess is that it will end in tunneling down. The diving seems too complex even with some braddy Jul 2018 #19

The South American miners who were rescued by drilling a few years ago had to wait 2 months applegrove Jul 2018 #20

Those were adult men and pro-miners who made their living in mines, I wouldn't want to manage braddy Jul 2018 #25

I know. Thats why the kids need meds. Right now. Adults can better regulate their feelings applegrove Jul 2018 #30

Drugging them for months doesn't seem very useful to me, it seems more harmful and disabling. braddy Jul 2018 #37

I am talking about anti depressants that will give them a strong baseline for stress. applegrove Jul 2018 #39

I'm sure that they can sedate one if he loses control, but only if that happens. I don't see why braddy Jul 2018 #49

I'm not talking about doping them. applegrove Jul 2018 #54

You are talking about doping them mythology Jul 2018 #166

if they aren't diving... and start showing signs of anxiety stress lapfog_1 Jul 2018 #74

But until the hole was drilled they had no contact with the outside GulfCoast66 Jul 2018 #99

The kids are kids, and the men were adult men and experienced miners. braddy Jul 2018 #112

The Thai cave probably is made of a much softer rock. NutmegYankee Jul 2018 #86

Drilling risks collapsing the ceiling and cutting off the cave elehhhhna Jul 2018 #104

I doubt they would be drilling at the exact spot the kids are, also, they still have a lot of braddy Jul 2018 #111

My drilling engineer/VP friend says it's too risky elehhhhna Jul 2018 #113

Now it looks like they may just walk out, they re getting rid of the water. braddy Jul 2018 #116

Are you a diver? I am and I can't think of a worse idea onenote Jul 2018 #21

yeah, that would be a bad idea. You absolutely need all of your faculties and reflexes when diving. lapfog_1 Jul 2018 #24

I'm not talking about turning them into a zombie with meds. They have applegrove Jul 2018 #26

Frankly, I think the diving option is unworkable onenote Jul 2018 #89

This. n/t Ms. Toad Jul 2018 #98

I'm a certified cave diver lapfog_1 Jul 2018 #23

Thanks for weighing in. It does seem impossible. If the kids were drugged applegrove Jul 2018 #28

drugs are a bad idea. lapfog_1 Jul 2018 #40

do you think they could run a line for the distance Mosby Jul 2018 #91

I'm a certified diver - but not a cave diver Ms. Toad Jul 2018 #95

yup.. to all your points. lapfog_1 Jul 2018 #127

I almost had to give up diving Ms. Toad Jul 2018 #132

They already have lines up i heard somewhere. Plus they have caches applegrove Jul 2018 #109

Thanks for pointing the difficulties of such a rescue out. I can imagine ... SWBTATTReg Jul 2018 #33

yeah... I was spelunking those very caves in the Ozarks. lapfog_1 Jul 2018 #48

Many hours under the water here too MuseRider Jul 2018 #45

sadly, my heart condition has terminated my diving career. lapfog_1 Jul 2018 #51

I cannot understand their being in that cave without shoes and proper clothing. Tipperary Jul 2018 #65

The cave should be off limits for at least a month lapfog_1 Jul 2018 #69

At the tight points and other points. Blue_true Jul 2018 #115

There will be at least a few safety cables strung all the way... lapfog_1 Jul 2018 #120

You mentioned putting down lights. Blue_true Jul 2018 #129

I haven't seen reports on water turbidity. lapfog_1 Jul 2018 #131

Yes. Petosky Stone Jul 2018 #38

I'm not talking about turning them into zombies. I'm talking about increasing their ability to cope. applegrove Jul 2018 #42

let it go elehhhhna Jul 2018 #105

I am an (ex) PADI Master Dive Instructor - I have instructed many many students DrDan Jul 2018 #43

I agree with that. Crossing my fingers some better solution can be found. applegrove Jul 2018 #44

yes... My posting on how to extract them via diving lapfog_1 Jul 2018 #88

agree 100% DrDan Jul 2018 #90

just took a look at some of the rescue divers lapfog_1 Jul 2018 #92

starting the training is a good idea - get masks on them - get them underwater a bit DrDan Jul 2018 #106

Yes, cave diving is only for select, experienced open water divers. roamer65 Jul 2018 #162

is the US offering equipment and expertise? Demovictory9 Jul 2018 #81

Yes there are american experts helping them also JI7 Jul 2018 #84

British divers are there too. cwydro Jul 2018 #97

Reports earlier today said one of the boys heard a rooster csziggy Jul 2018 #85

The entire situation is frightening malaise Jul 2018 #87

Yeah--I can't imagine what the adult was doing taking them into that tblue37 Jul 2018 #102

Great link malaise Jul 2018 #153

That's what I was thinking malaise. smirkymonkey Jul 2018 #119

He's the Asst coach - an idiot malaise Jul 2018 #145

I think drugging the kids is a horrible idea left-of-center2012 Jul 2018 #107

Some spots along the route are so moondust Jul 2018 #121

done it once lapfog_1 Jul 2018 #124

Yikes. moondust Jul 2018 #126

I really hope so. lapfog_1 Jul 2018 #130

Booo. greyl Jul 2018 #122

I just don't think kids are prepared for a grewling maze of tunnels and cave that only the steeliest applegrove Jul 2018 #123

no, they are certainly not ready for this. lapfog_1 Jul 2018 #125

I think if they were given anti anxiety medication for a few weeks they could be monitored applegrove Jul 2018 #128

Twice, in ideal settings, Ms. Toad Jul 2018 #134

It is just so scary. I want them safely out. At least they have full on masks applegrove Jul 2018 #135

Spot on. I would never mix drugs with even swimming, much less diving. Tipperary Jul 2018 #148

Can tanks trail behind them exboyfil Jul 2018 #152

I thought about this but I suspect it isn't possible lapfog_1 Jul 2018 #158

This is probably stupid, but why can't they use a submersible? Laffy Kat Jul 2018 #136

i think the problem is the narrow spaces where they can't get things through easily enough JI7 Jul 2018 #138

Yes, I should delete that post. I figure it out when I read more of the replies. Laffy Kat Jul 2018 #141

no, keep it up, others might have similar questions JI7 Jul 2018 #143

Yep, I thought of that too and left it up. nt Laffy Kat Jul 2018 #144

I think there are all kinds of grownups with them all the time at this point. I hear a doctor went applegrove Jul 2018 #140

Poor kids. At least they'll have a heck of a story for their own children. Laffy Kat Jul 2018 #142

Giving meds to children who you have no idea of their reactions or allergies while trapped in a cave Lee-Lee Jul 2018 #147

A doctor has already been in to see them. A real doctor. applegrove Jul 2018 #163

He is a doctor yes. A Thai Navy Seal doctor. Tipperary Jul 2018 #169

I have ptsd. I'm on meds that keep me alert yet dampen down fear. I applegrove Jul 2018 #170

exactly how much did you bet? Phentex Jul 2018 #190

Apparently these kids don't even know how to swim... brooklynite Jul 2018 #150

It will take weeks to turn them into little fish with tons of practice. applegrove Jul 2018 #164

In a conversation yesterday.. disillusioned73 Jul 2018 #151

How about Edim Jul 2018 #165

I guess you called it. Hassin Bin Sober Jul 2018 #173

I'm on it for ptsd so I know. I've also dived before. applegrove Jul 2018 #174

You were spot on it seems... Phentex Jul 2018 #175

Yes. I've dived and I've been on meds to stop fear and panic attacks. applegrove Jul 2018 #178

and so they did, you smart person you 0rganism Jul 2018 #177

I missed this thread. Kali Jul 2018 #180

Yes. I worry about the coach too. Thanks. applegrove Jul 2018 #187

A LOT of posters owe you an apology!! Great idea! nt USALiberal Jul 2018 #181

Nope. I did not call the tethering of the kids to their lead diver which makes applegrove Jul 2018 #186

Good catch and in hindsight it makes sense Hav Jul 2018 #191

Good call DemocratSinceBirth Jul 2018 #192

They drained enough of the cave that the kids didn't need to dive and swim, they were simply braddy Jul 2018 #193

You were more right than I was Lee-Lee Jul 2018 #195