General Discussion

lapfog_1

(31,904 posts)

161. I spent time as a teenager in Missouri

Thu Jul 5, 2018, 12:55 PM

Jul 2018

spelunking in those tiny holes... and it was fun.

And again, just a few years ago, I was associated with a mining outfit in Arizona... and spent a lot of time crawling around deep underground again (mines are different than caves... but there are many similarities).

And, as I've mentioned elsewhere, I am a certified cave diver too.

You have to not be claustrophobic. My mother was extremely claustrophobic... so much so she couldn't even look at the photos I would bring back from my caving adventures.

Anyway, these kids are apparently in "training" right now... and the interview that Ali Velshi did with a Thai official did not reassure me. He was just a bit too caviler about it (oh they only have to breath on scuba).

Keeping my fingers crossed.

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If they teach the Thai kids to dive to get them out of the caves they should [View all] applegrove Jul 2018 OP

Experts are talking about waiting until Ilsa Jul 2018 #1

There is a worry that it being the start of monsoon season they might not applegrove Jul 2018 #3

I'll go with whatever guidance the doctors actually with them are recommending. brooklynite Jul 2018 #15

They are not American kids. former9thward Jul 2018 #160

Right. No one in other countries experiences anxiety, Ilsa Jul 2018 #168

Anxiety is normal. former9thward Jul 2018 #171

And the concern is that anxiety becomes panic, Ilsa Jul 2018 #172

Who argued they are in fact, American kids? LanternWaste Jul 2018 #194

Why don't they tag team each of the kids (put 2 experienced cave persons w/ ... SWBTATTReg Jul 2018 #2

I'm guessing it would require cave certified divers and the kids would have to trained to scuba div CentralMass Jul 2018 #5

2 to 3 km, not miles. Still bad, but only 2/3 as bad as 2 to 3 miles: tblue37 Jul 2018 #103

CNN reported that it is an 11 hour round trip to see the boys. CentralMass Jul 2018 #139

It is 5km, which is 3 miles approx. Tipperary Jul 2018 #146

Yeah, the first couple of BBC articles I read said 2-3 km. The more recent ones tblue37 Jul 2018 #155

I get the impression canetoad Jul 2018 #6

How about the potential digging area ? JI7 Jul 2018 #27

Found this on the BBC canetoad Jul 2018 #71

thanks for the map... and I note that I was correct in a later post in this thread lapfog_1 Jul 2018 #47

Wow! I'm kind of envious canetoad Jul 2018 #78

if you are still in decent shape... and can swim 200 yards without a snorkel lapfog_1 Jul 2018 #82

Some people can't get past the fear of being underwater Ms. Toad Jul 2018 #93

You have to slip through with a tank in front of you, not on your back... elehhhhna Jul 2018 #101

Thanks for posting.. disillusioned73 Jul 2018 #154

Yes but if the kids panic they could easily drown. And they could take the master diver applegrove Jul 2018 #8

they are thinking of digging down... lame54 Jul 2018 #80

Drugged kids diving is a very bad idea. Ms. Toad Jul 2018 #94

I mean meds. applegrove Jul 2018 #108

It doesn't matter what you call it. ANY mind altering med, Ms. Toad Jul 2018 #133

I think poster is trying to suggest non-sedative drugs like beta blockers--likewise with risks hlthe2b Jul 2018 #167

Experienced divers will not be able to be side by side nor closer tha five feet from them... hlthe2b Jul 2018 #83

It took experts 90 minutes of diving to get to them janterry Jul 2018 #4

That is a grown man going fast. It will take hours for the kids. applegrove Jul 2018 #11

That's a long time. lapfog_1 Jul 2018 #63

If they stay what are the risks of no sanitation...? elehhhhna Jul 2018 #114

I think you don't realize how alert they will have to be to get out... hlthe2b Jul 2018 #7

They can be really specific with the drugs that will not reduce alertness but suppresses applegrove Jul 2018 #9

NO! hlthe2b Jul 2018 #29

Of course they need training. But they also need meds that calm fear and do not affect applegrove Jul 2018 #31

I could not disagree more and I'm a medical professional hlthe2b Jul 2018 #32

I'm on meds for ptsd. I know how it feels to be medicated not to fear. I am alert. applegrove Jul 2018 #36

ridicuous... these are healthy teens and they don't need drugs they need training hlthe2b Jul 2018 #41

The South American miners who were rescued by drilling a few years ago had to wait 2 months. applegrove Jul 2018 #46

and they should receive treatment afterwards as necessary. hlthe2b Jul 2018 #50

Fighter pilots are on drugs when in combat. applegrove Jul 2018 #52

they receive stimulants not sedatives!!!!!!! hlthe2b Jul 2018 #53

My point is meds can be a weapon. We don't want those kids to panic applegrove Jul 2018 #55

Training is what will prevent panic, not dulling drugs which are intensely dangerous! hlthe2b Jul 2018 #57

I keep saying I am not suggesting zombie drugs. applegrove Jul 2018 #60

and I keep telling you that drugs have side effects including on blood pressure. hlthe2b Jul 2018 #62

I'm not offended. I think you are being trite there. On you. applegrove Jul 2018 #64

Ok.. when the insults start flying, I'm out of here. hlthe2b Jul 2018 #66

what happens if one of the kids has a bad reaction to your proposed anti-anxiety drug? lapfog_1 Jul 2018 #67

I think you meant to post that to applegrove. hlthe2b Jul 2018 #68

I was agreeing with you.. lapfog_1 Jul 2018 #70

but you said "your" proposed medication" and I'm arguing vehemently against meds.. hlthe2b Jul 2018 #73

oh, sorry... got carried away lapfog_1 Jul 2018 #76

No problem... thanks for your comments. hlthe2b Jul 2018 #77

Beta blockers lower blood pressure, but also reduce anxiety. smirkymonkey Jul 2018 #117

Yes...that is why I mentioned them specifically, but the changes on blood pressure could be hlthe2b Jul 2018 #149

Normal levels of fear and anxiety can be useful as well. Chemisse Jul 2018 #157

Yeah, i guess astronauts ought to be drugged too. Tipperary Jul 2018 #100

How bizarre to want to give healthy kids drugs. Tipperary Jul 2018 #156

This is not "scuba diving." This is cave diving for children who do not even know how to swim. Tipperary Jul 2018 #59

I guess we'll have to disagree. applegrove Jul 2018 #61

I guess you think firefighters and soldiers should be given meds too? Tipperary Jul 2018 #72

I'm talking about kids in a really difficult situation. I mean meds. Maybe my use of the term drugs applegrove Jul 2018 #110

LOL!!! YES Drugs were the answer. You need to apologize! nt USALiberal Jul 2018 #182

Well, that is EXACTLY what they did!!! Sedated them! nt USALiberal Jul 2018 #176

And at least two were severely hypothermic and at least one seriously bradycardic as a result They hlthe2b Jul 2018 #184

LOL, ok. nt USALiberal Jul 2018 #185

Seems you were wrong. SixString Jul 2018 #179

And at least two were severely hypothermic and at least one seriously bradycardic as a result hlthe2b Jul 2018 #183

Ahh, no! You said "would be deadly" which it was not. Just admit you were wrong. nt USALiberal Jul 2018 #188

Bradycardia and hypothermia IS deadly. They were well monitored. That doesn't make it SAFE hlthe2b Jul 2018 #189

I am praying that a solution to get them out quickly can be found... SWBTATTReg Jul 2018 #10

Yes. I'm sure the solution will be a combination of things and brilliant. For applegrove Jul 2018 #14

I feel panicky just thinking about the whole situation. milestogo Jul 2018 #12

I know. I'm on calming meds for ptsd and even I can hardly stand it. applegrove Jul 2018 #16

Is there anything worse than being trapped? milestogo Jul 2018 #56

Heights get me. I'm a waterbaby so I would love to dive out a passage applegrove Jul 2018 #58

Just thinking about it is making me almost hyperventilate. smirkymonkey Jul 2018 #118

Unless I missed it: how did they get in there? CurtEastPoint Jul 2018 #13

Walked in iirc. Then it started raining. MissB Jul 2018 #35

They have discussed drilling holes to reach the kids murielm99 Jul 2018 #17

I think describing this as a cave is a bit Phoenix61 Jul 2018 #18

At one place it is that narrow. In other parts it is much wider and is a cave. applegrove Jul 2018 #22

Way more than in one place. Tipperary Jul 2018 #75

I would expect that there are very long passages within that cave system. lapfog_1 Jul 2018 #34

almost all cave systems are tunnels underground... with the occasional chamber lapfog_1 Jul 2018 #79

Exactly. cwydro Jul 2018 #96

Yeah. Hassin Bin Sober Jul 2018 #159

I spent time as a teenager in Missouri lapfog_1 Jul 2018 #161

Oh, I just asked why they can't use a submersible. I guess this is why. nt Laffy Kat Jul 2018 #137

My guess is that it will end in tunneling down. The diving seems too complex even with some braddy Jul 2018 #19

The South American miners who were rescued by drilling a few years ago had to wait 2 months applegrove Jul 2018 #20

Those were adult men and pro-miners who made their living in mines, I wouldn't want to manage braddy Jul 2018 #25

I know. Thats why the kids need meds. Right now. Adults can better regulate their feelings applegrove Jul 2018 #30

Drugging them for months doesn't seem very useful to me, it seems more harmful and disabling. braddy Jul 2018 #37

I am talking about anti depressants that will give them a strong baseline for stress. applegrove Jul 2018 #39

I'm sure that they can sedate one if he loses control, but only if that happens. I don't see why braddy Jul 2018 #49

I'm not talking about doping them. applegrove Jul 2018 #54

You are talking about doping them mythology Jul 2018 #166

if they aren't diving... and start showing signs of anxiety stress lapfog_1 Jul 2018 #74

But until the hole was drilled they had no contact with the outside GulfCoast66 Jul 2018 #99

The kids are kids, and the men were adult men and experienced miners. braddy Jul 2018 #112

The Thai cave probably is made of a much softer rock. NutmegYankee Jul 2018 #86

Drilling risks collapsing the ceiling and cutting off the cave elehhhhna Jul 2018 #104

I doubt they would be drilling at the exact spot the kids are, also, they still have a lot of braddy Jul 2018 #111

My drilling engineer/VP friend says it's too risky elehhhhna Jul 2018 #113

Now it looks like they may just walk out, they re getting rid of the water. braddy Jul 2018 #116

Are you a diver? I am and I can't think of a worse idea onenote Jul 2018 #21

yeah, that would be a bad idea. You absolutely need all of your faculties and reflexes when diving. lapfog_1 Jul 2018 #24

I'm not talking about turning them into a zombie with meds. They have applegrove Jul 2018 #26

Frankly, I think the diving option is unworkable onenote Jul 2018 #89

This. n/t Ms. Toad Jul 2018 #98

I'm a certified cave diver lapfog_1 Jul 2018 #23

Thanks for weighing in. It does seem impossible. If the kids were drugged applegrove Jul 2018 #28

drugs are a bad idea. lapfog_1 Jul 2018 #40

do you think they could run a line for the distance Mosby Jul 2018 #91

I'm a certified diver - but not a cave diver Ms. Toad Jul 2018 #95

yup.. to all your points. lapfog_1 Jul 2018 #127

I almost had to give up diving Ms. Toad Jul 2018 #132

They already have lines up i heard somewhere. Plus they have caches applegrove Jul 2018 #109

Thanks for pointing the difficulties of such a rescue out. I can imagine ... SWBTATTReg Jul 2018 #33

yeah... I was spelunking those very caves in the Ozarks. lapfog_1 Jul 2018 #48

Many hours under the water here too MuseRider Jul 2018 #45

sadly, my heart condition has terminated my diving career. lapfog_1 Jul 2018 #51

I cannot understand their being in that cave without shoes and proper clothing. Tipperary Jul 2018 #65

The cave should be off limits for at least a month lapfog_1 Jul 2018 #69

At the tight points and other points. Blue_true Jul 2018 #115

There will be at least a few safety cables strung all the way... lapfog_1 Jul 2018 #120

You mentioned putting down lights. Blue_true Jul 2018 #129

I haven't seen reports on water turbidity. lapfog_1 Jul 2018 #131

Yes. Petosky Stone Jul 2018 #38

I'm not talking about turning them into zombies. I'm talking about increasing their ability to cope. applegrove Jul 2018 #42

let it go elehhhhna Jul 2018 #105

I am an (ex) PADI Master Dive Instructor - I have instructed many many students DrDan Jul 2018 #43

I agree with that. Crossing my fingers some better solution can be found. applegrove Jul 2018 #44

yes... My posting on how to extract them via diving lapfog_1 Jul 2018 #88

agree 100% DrDan Jul 2018 #90

just took a look at some of the rescue divers lapfog_1 Jul 2018 #92

starting the training is a good idea - get masks on them - get them underwater a bit DrDan Jul 2018 #106

Yes, cave diving is only for select, experienced open water divers. roamer65 Jul 2018 #162

is the US offering equipment and expertise? Demovictory9 Jul 2018 #81

Yes there are american experts helping them also JI7 Jul 2018 #84

British divers are there too. cwydro Jul 2018 #97

Reports earlier today said one of the boys heard a rooster csziggy Jul 2018 #85

The entire situation is frightening malaise Jul 2018 #87

Yeah--I can't imagine what the adult was doing taking them into that tblue37 Jul 2018 #102

Great link malaise Jul 2018 #153

That's what I was thinking malaise. smirkymonkey Jul 2018 #119

He's the Asst coach - an idiot malaise Jul 2018 #145

I think drugging the kids is a horrible idea left-of-center2012 Jul 2018 #107

Some spots along the route are so moondust Jul 2018 #121

done it once lapfog_1 Jul 2018 #124

Yikes. moondust Jul 2018 #126

I really hope so. lapfog_1 Jul 2018 #130

Booo. greyl Jul 2018 #122

I just don't think kids are prepared for a grewling maze of tunnels and cave that only the steeliest applegrove Jul 2018 #123

no, they are certainly not ready for this. lapfog_1 Jul 2018 #125

I think if they were given anti anxiety medication for a few weeks they could be monitored applegrove Jul 2018 #128

Twice, in ideal settings, Ms. Toad Jul 2018 #134

It is just so scary. I want them safely out. At least they have full on masks applegrove Jul 2018 #135

Spot on. I would never mix drugs with even swimming, much less diving. Tipperary Jul 2018 #148

Can tanks trail behind them exboyfil Jul 2018 #152

I thought about this but I suspect it isn't possible lapfog_1 Jul 2018 #158

This is probably stupid, but why can't they use a submersible? Laffy Kat Jul 2018 #136

i think the problem is the narrow spaces where they can't get things through easily enough JI7 Jul 2018 #138

Yes, I should delete that post. I figure it out when I read more of the replies. Laffy Kat Jul 2018 #141

no, keep it up, others might have similar questions JI7 Jul 2018 #143

Yep, I thought of that too and left it up. nt Laffy Kat Jul 2018 #144

I think there are all kinds of grownups with them all the time at this point. I hear a doctor went applegrove Jul 2018 #140

Poor kids. At least they'll have a heck of a story for their own children. Laffy Kat Jul 2018 #142

Giving meds to children who you have no idea of their reactions or allergies while trapped in a cave Lee-Lee Jul 2018 #147

A doctor has already been in to see them. A real doctor. applegrove Jul 2018 #163

He is a doctor yes. A Thai Navy Seal doctor. Tipperary Jul 2018 #169

I have ptsd. I'm on meds that keep me alert yet dampen down fear. I applegrove Jul 2018 #170

exactly how much did you bet? Phentex Jul 2018 #190

Apparently these kids don't even know how to swim... brooklynite Jul 2018 #150

It will take weeks to turn them into little fish with tons of practice. applegrove Jul 2018 #164

In a conversation yesterday.. disillusioned73 Jul 2018 #151

How about Edim Jul 2018 #165

I guess you called it. Hassin Bin Sober Jul 2018 #173

I'm on it for ptsd so I know. I've also dived before. applegrove Jul 2018 #174

You were spot on it seems... Phentex Jul 2018 #175

Yes. I've dived and I've been on meds to stop fear and panic attacks. applegrove Jul 2018 #178

and so they did, you smart person you 0rganism Jul 2018 #177

I missed this thread. Kali Jul 2018 #180

Yes. I worry about the coach too. Thanks. applegrove Jul 2018 #187

A LOT of posters owe you an apology!! Great idea! nt USALiberal Jul 2018 #181

Nope. I did not call the tethering of the kids to their lead diver which makes applegrove Jul 2018 #186

Good catch and in hindsight it makes sense Hav Jul 2018 #191

Good call DemocratSinceBirth Jul 2018 #192

They drained enough of the cave that the kids didn't need to dive and swim, they were simply braddy Jul 2018 #193

You were more right than I was Lee-Lee Jul 2018 #195