General Discussion

Celerity

(54,527 posts)

189. Except what she (and Bernie and all other Democratic candidates they support)

Tue Jul 24, 2018, 09:58 PM

Jul 2018

is social democracy, NOT democrat socialism. I have no clue why Bernie and now all the newer ones are insisting on incorrectly self-labeling as socialists (democratic or otherwise) when they cleary are not. It is electoral suicide in the vast parts of our country that are reactionary from 100 plus years of the cold war and before that massive red-baiting and hostility towards the actual socialists and their leaders, such as Eugene V. Debs, Norman Thomas, et al.

Trying to redefine a term that is globally etched in stone from a high academic level on down to street level is truly a strategy of failure.

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Why can't we be better about branding? Why are some progressives so determined [View all] pnwmom Jul 2018 OP

Agreed. SHRED Jul 2018 #1

What would you suggest? guillaumeb Jul 2018 #2

Maybe just avoid the word and talk policy? Adrahil Jul 2018 #10

Yes, talk about specific policies. guillaumeb Jul 2018 #179

I agree, and wish more people were affected by rational arguments. Adrahil Jul 2018 #181

The GOP is excellent at framing. guillaumeb Jul 2018 #182

Conservatives frame the New Deal as "socialism", and thus equivalent to Warsaw Pact Police states JHB Jul 2018 #17

Exactly. dae Jul 2018 #59

Yes, the mostly non-existent liberal media. guillaumeb Jul 2018 #180

Democrat Stinky The Clown Jul 2018 #42

Western Europe ARE NOT socialist. The confusion on this is amazing. Blue_true Jul 2018 #45

+1000 smirkymonkey Jul 2018 #65

+1 uponit7771 Jul 2018 #89

Thank you for this... nil desperandum Jul 2018 #158

Those of us who live there have always known that DFW Jul 2018 #160

You may have a point about things being intentional. Blue_true Jul 2018 #176

liberals just need to destroy the talk radio psyops, otherwise national discussions certainot Jul 2018 #66

What does Western Europe have to do with Socialism? GulfCoast66 Jul 2018 #72

You're right, especially your last (apparently inconvenient) observation n/t DFW Jul 2018 #161

Some people chose to look at the world with blinders on. Blue_true Jul 2018 #177

Post removed Post removed Jul 2018 #75

Isn't it annoying that words have actually meaning, and you can't just change their definition? brooklynite Jul 2018 #3

Kick. Squinch Jul 2018 #4

You are absolutely right. Thing is, they seem to be using it a lot more very recently OnDoutside Jul 2018 #5

Its BernieSpeak Stinky The Clown Jul 2018 #43

Bingo! GulfCoast66 Jul 2018 #74

I'll agree. The word is unnecessary. defacto7 Jul 2018 #6

pnwmom-- I totally agree! skylucy Jul 2018 #7

Who knows? It's absurd and will lose us votes. manor321 Jul 2018 #8

On the other hand... Since a lot of tRump supporters are grateful to the USSR (er, I mean Russia) alwaysinasnit Jul 2018 #9

are sweden and Norway even socialist ? JI7 Jul 2018 #11

No, they are not Socialist at all Lee-Lee Jul 2018 #23

Many people think socialism equals communism. LuckyCharms Jul 2018 #12

True. People don't really know or understand these terms. Honeycombe8 Jul 2018 #21

Communism is an extreme form of socialism. brush Jul 2018 #63

rebuild the safety net. mopinko Jul 2018 #13

I agree. Hitler's party was the National Socialist German Workers' Party. Honeycombe8 Jul 2018 #14

Even if liberal Democrats don't care, we need moderate Democrats pnwmom Jul 2018 #18

Go through Republicans rpannier Jul 2018 #71

'People in her district in NY are very different from most of the rest of the country' melman Jul 2018 #78

You need to come down here & see. Honeycombe8 Jul 2018 #90

Alexandria's district is only 18% white. That's a huge difference, pnwmom Jul 2018 #145

So what? melman Jul 2018 #172

Except what she (and Bernie and all other Democratic candidates they support) Celerity Jul 2018 #189

Like the Republicans with "conservative," the Nazis just hijacked a label. DFW Jul 2018 #164

Actually, it did have a socialist economical basis. Honeycombe8 Jul 2018 #171

It didnt have a socialist economy. Most the oligarchs Celerity Jul 2018 #196

You're missing the point. Honeycombe8 Jul 2018 #197

No, I was specifically responding to your positing it was a socialist economy. Celerity Jul 2018 #198

IMO it is branding and advance promotion for 2020 campaign by a prominent non-democrat nt msongs Jul 2018 #15

Well said. mia Jul 2018 #16

How about liberal? oberliner Jul 2018 #19

I don't know. All I know is the word "socialist" has too many negative associations. pnwmom Jul 2018 #22

What sort of labeling do you think would be effective? oberliner Jul 2018 #25

I think "progressive" doesn't have the negative associations of socialist. pnwmom Jul 2018 #26

I like Progressive. It's far from perfect, but better than anything else I can think of... TreasonousBastard Jul 2018 #37

What's wrong with being just a Democrat? I'm a Democrat. Honeycombe8 Jul 2018 #92

Nothing, really, except that these labels keep popping up whther we like it or not, so... TreasonousBastard Jul 2018 #109

No, you don't "own" a label assigned to you by your opponent. You continue to "own" your own label. Honeycombe8 Jul 2018 #123

"Progressive Democracy" has a good ring, too. n/t KY_EnviroGuy Jul 2018 #69

Are you southern? GulfCoast66 Jul 2018 #77

Most people in the south will react more to "socialist" than to "progressive." Honeycombe8 Jul 2018 #91

I agree. Neither socialist or progressives helps the cause GulfCoast66 Jul 2018 #120

Agree. I'd love to see us like Denmark, without the racism, but "socialism" scares Hoyt Jul 2018 #20

Agreed. It simply doesn't mean the same as it does in Europe. Some posters... Hekate Jul 2018 #24

We should somehow bring out the concept of "get your fair share of the wealth YOU helped create." Squinch Jul 2018 #27

Too bad "fairism" isn't a word. pnwmom Jul 2018 #28

Lol! Exactly the concept, though. This is why we need the pr experts. Squinch Jul 2018 #30

Sweden and Norway? Those are capitalist countries not socialist AlexSFCA Jul 2018 #29

Hey, I'm a proud Socialist elmac Jul 2018 #31

it's called social capitalism not socialism. go to webster dictionary AlexSFCA Jul 2018 #33

no thanks elmac Jul 2018 #35

Calling regulation of capitalism "socialism," is wrong and just plays into the hands of the GOP. SunSeeker Jul 2018 #52

You are free to create new meaning for words. GulfCoast66 Jul 2018 #79

Why not be called a FDR Democrat? kimbutgar Jul 2018 #32

FDR was NOT as socialist. To equate him with that is wrong. Modern socialists are tagging along. tonyt53 Jul 2018 #38

Brand/marketing ecxpert Donnie Duetsch is supposed to meet with Democratic Ilsa Jul 2018 #34

For once, we get to define the Republicans. Efilroft Sul Jul 2018 #36

Anyone who thinks socialism is a bad word elmac Jul 2018 #39

Anyone who thinks we should reeducate hundreds of millions of Americans pnwmom Jul 2018 #46

Nothing you listed had one whit to do with Socialism GulfCoast66 Jul 2018 #80

Agree HopeAgain Jul 2018 #84

Some far left people don't want reform. Blue_true Jul 2018 #40

lol elmac Jul 2018 #58

Why not define it in everyday constitutional language. ancianita Jul 2018 #41

Because that phrase contains the word "socialist." Which has acquired negative connotations pnwmom Jul 2018 #44

Like cowards we hide from stigmatizing of "LIBeral" as well, as if the meaning of "free" is bad. ancianita Jul 2018 #48

"For the people" and "We the People" are constitutional. We are FOR society. Social. ists. ancianita Jul 2018 #50

I don't think the word liberal is as bad, because it's not connected with Soviet Socialist Republic pnwmom Jul 2018 #51

I don't know...right wing outlets (ie, hate radio, fux, etc.) have demonized the word. BlancheSplanchnik Jul 2018 #76

and why would anyone want to sanitize the name socialism? elmac Jul 2018 #47

To win an election. Why be so attached to a word that is connected to the Soviet Socialist Republic pnwmom Jul 2018 #54

Yep. Or they think about Cuba and Fidel and political prisons. SunSeeker Jul 2018 #49

Great. warmfeet Jul 2018 #53

Socialist isn't my identity. The word doesn't carry any warm and fuzzies pnwmom Jul 2018 #56

N.Chomsky: "B. Sanders is not a socialist. He's a decent, honest New-Dealer." AtomicKitten Jul 2018 #55

I'd prefer the term New-Dealer myself. But some market research is in order. n/t pnwmom Jul 2018 #57

Noam Chomsky is wrong. SunSeeker Jul 2018 #61

I quess I could probably call myself a kinda progressive elmac Jul 2018 #60

I don't care about making anyone happy. I just want voters to vote for the Democrat pnwmom Jul 2018 #62

Maybe Meowmee Jul 2018 #64

Terms like "working for the common good" ring much better, or KY_EnviroGuy Jul 2018 #67

I'm a socialist Nevernose Jul 2018 #68

Well, you can't get elected to high office as a socialist in the U.S. Even Bernie knows that. n/t pnwmom Jul 2018 #70

That much we agree on Nevernose Jul 2018 #95

So you believe in government ownership of the means of production? nt SunSeeker Jul 2018 #73

No Nevernose Jul 2018 #93

Then you're not a socialist, you just believe in well regulated capitalism, like the rest us. SunSeeker Jul 2018 #96

No, definitely a Socialist Nevernose Jul 2018 #105

If you don't think government should own all means of production, then you are not a socialist. SunSeeker Jul 2018 #106

Which country? Kentonio Jul 2018 #107

"You sound like you're hung up on dictionary definition." SunSeeker Jul 2018 #108

Like the way gay has always meant happy, and always will because words can't change? Kentonio Jul 2018 #110

There are no socialist governments in Europe. SunSeeker Jul 2018 #122

There are plenty of socialist governments in Europe Kentonio Jul 2018 #147

Wrong. There are no socialist governments in Europe. SunSeeker Jul 2018 #149

That's actually pretty funny Kentonio Jul 2018 #157

I lived in Europe too. Socialists say a lot of stuff, but that doesn't make it true. SunSeeker Jul 2018 #159

Well we'll have to agree to disagree about the socialist countries Kentonio Jul 2018 #165

Our disagreement does not change the fact that there are no European socialist countries. SunSeeker Jul 2018 #167

Ah I should have known that any attempt to ease disagreement would be met with intransigence. Kentonio Jul 2018 #169

Facts are intransigent. nt SunSeeker Jul 2018 #170

Your 'facts' are about as accurate as those we're thrown each week at White House briefings Kentonio Jul 2018 #199

What did I state that was inaccurate? Or did you just post to insult? nt SunSeeker Jul 2018 #200

So what business do you want the government to take over first? GulfCoast66 Jul 2018 #81

Neither Nevernose Jul 2018 #94

Socialism does indeed have a definition: SunSeeker Jul 2018 #97

That's inaccurate and oversimplified Nevernose Jul 2018 #101

I cited the Websters definition of socialism, i.e. government ownership of the means of production. SunSeeker Jul 2018 #104

You can't expect the American people to use your complicated definition instead of pnwmom Jul 2018 #116

Better let Webster's dictionary know... GulfCoast66 Jul 2018 #119

No, I'm definitely a social democrat Nevernose Jul 2018 #124

Wow. GulfCoast66 Jul 2018 #146

Socialism is not a "complicated political concept." SunSeeker Jul 2018 #168

yeah we should totally cave to right wing bullshit bigtree Jul 2018 #82

Yep I'm with you HopeAgain Jul 2018 #83

Liberalism and socialism are NOT synonymous. That is a GOP lie. SunSeeker Jul 2018 #99

I did say not that at all. HopeAgain Jul 2018 #112

We brand ourselves every day, whether we like it or not. SunSeeker Jul 2018 #121

Fine, but lets not shy away from HopeAgain Jul 2018 #125

Of course! SunSeeker Jul 2018 #128

No, how about we use the correct words for what we mean? SunSeeker Jul 2018 #98

If you Google "Socialist Mayors" you see that it was more common 100 years ago. Algernon Moncrieff Jul 2018 #85

Capitalist indoctrination starts on the day we're born in the U.S. YOHABLO Jul 2018 #86

That whole Thom Hartmann "commons" spiel is not describing socialism. SunSeeker Jul 2018 #102

Democratic Progressive Party gulliver Jul 2018 #87

Many of those calling themselves "socialist" don't even understand what socialism is. Garrett78 Jul 2018 #88

Yes, that is painfully obvious from reading this thread. nt SunSeeker Jul 2018 #100

Yep, a big chunk of the problem is people who can't define socialism Lee-Lee Jul 2018 #111

I agree radical noodle Jul 2018 #103

Your friends on the right call every candidate a 'socialist'... even Manchin RandiFan1290 Jul 2018 #113

My friends in the dictionary call people who believe in socialism, socialists. pnwmom Jul 2018 #115

How about the Social party? pwb Jul 2018 #114

If Democrats are going to use the term they must constantly remind people what Medicare, Vinca Jul 2018 #117

IOW, we have to re-educate 300 million people. How about just use a better word pnwmom Jul 2018 #118

Well said. N/T FSogol Jul 2018 #126

Becauase socialist is becoming less and less a dirty word as people are acquainted with it and its JCanete Jul 2018 #127

People are not increasingly embracing government ownership of production. SunSeeker Jul 2018 #130

People are not increasingly selling the notion of ownership of production. If that's what people JCanete Jul 2018 #133

That's what the USA Socialist party is advocating for. Why do we use the same name pnwmom Jul 2018 #134

What word isn't used for different sets of values? Is there one? JCanete Jul 2018 #135

There are LOTS of words that aren't connected with the Soviet Socialist Republic. pnwmom Jul 2018 #136

There are no Democratic candidates associating themselves with Celerity Jul 2018 #192

If you are not advocating government ownership of production, then you are not a socialist. SunSeeker Jul 2018 #137

I don't think you are correct. The wiki page has a far broader definition of socialism that can JCanete Jul 2018 #138

Wiki is not an official dictionary, it is internet poster driven. SunSeeker Jul 2018 #139

It is a word that has been losing its boogieman quality, so I see no reason to try to rebrand JCanete Jul 2018 #140

Socialism is not "gaining traction." SunSeeker Jul 2018 #143

Link: JCanete Jul 2018 #144

That poll just shows many millennials don't seem to know what socialism is. SunSeeker Jul 2018 #148

No, you are continuing to narrowly define what is socialist, but don't seem to have the same JCanete Jul 2018 #150

America and Scandinavia have free market economies. SunSeeker Jul 2018 #151

Not in all things. And regulation is a check on that free market. I'll accept that you don't think JCanete Jul 2018 #152

No, I would not call public services socialism. Scandinavia doesn't either. SunSeeker Jul 2018 #156

Progressive Democrats BlueJac Jul 2018 #129

In general, we're unable to KISS. ecstatic Jul 2018 #131

For everyone keeping score here on DU... vi5 Jul 2018 #132

So far it's just you. Nobody else seems to care... NurseJackie Jul 2018 #142

+1 ck4829 Jul 2018 #153

Vanity? For attention? ... NurseJackie Jul 2018 #141

Because in the near future; Fox News, right wing leaders, religious right officials, Trump, and ck4829 Jul 2018 #154

Adopting a label that doesn't describe us is the opposite of what we should be doing. pnwmom Jul 2018 #155

Just another day of Red Scare frenzy on the Democratic Underground Devil Child Jul 2018 #162

The average American has no positive associations with the word "socialist" or "socialism." pnwmom Jul 2018 #163

Government should control the means of production Devil Child Jul 2018 #174

That's because you ARE a socialist. The vast majority of Democrats and Americans are not, pnwmom Jul 2018 #178

+1 melman Jul 2018 #173

You are correct Devil Child Jul 2018 #175

Here's a radical idea for you DFW Jul 2018 #166

So what are we going to call ourselves after progressive is sufficiently demonized. Glamrock Jul 2018 #183

Some word that isn't part of "Soviet Socialist Republic." pnwmom Jul 2018 #184

Sorry. Glamrock Jul 2018 #185

Sorry. I think it's dumb to alienate hundreds of millions of Americans pnwmom Jul 2018 #186

Do as you wish. Glamrock Jul 2018 #187

Plenty of Democrats and Independents are put off by the term, and accept the dictionary definition. pnwmom Jul 2018 #188

And according to plenty of research and polls Glamrock Jul 2018 #190

Do you have a link for that, please? I can't find anything more recent than 2016. pnwmom Jul 2018 #191

I knew you'd ask Glamrock Jul 2018 #193

But all of these polls still show that large numbers of Democrats and leaners -- pnwmom Jul 2018 #194

Two years ago just as many were put off about single payer. Glamrock Jul 2018 #195