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Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
118. And you aren't willing to accept another narrative either. No, I got the point on Civil War and I
Tue Aug 7, 2018, 02:08 PM
Aug 2018

made it clear white wing racists never convinced me it was anything but about preserving slavery. Another example of hatred/disregard of foreign ethnicity.

I'll accept Eseinhower's view of the need to bomb Japan. "In his 1963 memoir, "Mandate for Change," former President Dwight D. Eisenhower criticized the use of the atomic bombs, saying they weren't necessary to force the surrender of Japan."

He was right on the Military Industrial Complex, and he was right on the atomic bombing of Japan. Again, you can't accept any narrative other than bombing innocent people is OK if we can come up with some scenario where one American life will be saved.

_______

"It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons.

"The lethal possibilities of atomic warfare in the future are frightening. My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children."

- William Leahy, I Was There, pg. 441.


"MacArthur biographer William Manchester has described MacArthur's reaction to the issuance by the Allies of the Potsdam Proclamation to Japan: "...the Potsdam declaration in July, demand[ed] that Japan surrender unconditionally or face 'prompt and utter destruction.' MacArthur was appalled. He knew that the Japanese would never renounce their emperor, and that without him an orderly transition to peace would be impossible anyhow, because his people would never submit to Allied occupation unless he ordered it. Ironically, when the surrender did come, it was conditional, and the condition was a continuation of the imperial reign. Had the General's advice been followed, the resort to atomic weapons at Hiroshima and Nagasaki might have been unnecessary.""

William Manchester, American Caesar: Douglas MacArthur 1880-1964, pg. 512.


"Norman Cousins was a consultant to General MacArthur during the American occupation of Japan. Cousins writes of his conversations with MacArthur, "MacArthur's views about the decision to drop the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were starkly different from what the general public supposed." He continues, "When I asked General MacArthur about the decision to drop the bomb, I was surprised to learn he had not even been consulted. What, I asked, would his advice have been? He replied that he saw no military justification for the dropping of the bomb. The war might have ended weeks earlier, he said, if the United States had agreed, as it later did anyway, to the retention of the institution of the emperor.""

Norman Cousins, The Pathology of Power, pg. 65, 70-71.



(Assistant Sec. of War)
"I have always felt that if, in our ultimatum to the Japanese government issued from Potsdam [in July 1945], we had referred to the retention of the emperor as a constitutional monarch and had made some reference to the reasonable accessibility of raw materials to the future Japanese government, it would have been accepted. Indeed, I believe that even in the form it was delivered, there was some disposition on the part of the Japanese to give it favorable consideration. When the war was over I arrived at this conclusion after talking with a number of Japanese officials who had been closely associated with the decision of the then Japanese government, to reject the ultimatum, as it was presented. I believe we missed the opportunity of effecting a Japanese surrender, completely satisfactory to us, without the necessity of dropping the bombs."

McCloy quoted in James Reston, Deadline, pg. 500.


~~~RALPH BARD
(Under Sec. of the Navy)
On June 28, 1945, a memorandum written by Bard the previous day was given to Sec. of War Henry Stimson. It stated, in part:

"Following the three-power [July 1945 Potsdam] conference emissaries from this country could contact representatives from Japan somewhere on the China Coast and make representations with regard to Russia's position [they were about to declare war on Japan] and at the same time give them some information regarding the proposed use of atomic power, together with whatever assurances the President might care to make with regard to the [retention of the] Emperor of Japan and the treatment of the Japanese nation following unconditional surrender. It seems quite possible to me that this presents the opportunity which the Japanese are looking for.

"I don't see that we have anything in particular to lose in following such a program." He concluded the memorandum by noting, "The only way to find out is to try it out."

Memorandum on the Use of S-1 Bomb, Manhattan Engineer District Records, Harrison-Bundy files, folder # 77, National Archives (also contained in: Martin Sherwin, A World Destroyed, 1987 edition, pg. 307-308).

Later Bard related, "...it definitely seemed to me that the Japanese were becoming weaker and weaker. They were surrounded by the Navy. They couldn't get any imports and they couldn't export anything. Naturally, as time went on and the war developed in our favor it was quite logical to hope and expect that with the proper kind of a warning the Japanese would then be in a position to make peace, which would have made it unnecessary for us to drop the bomb and have had to bring Russia in...".

quoted in Len Giovannitti and Fred Freed, The Decision To Drop the Bomb, pg. 144-145, 324.

Bard also asserted, "I think that the Japanese were ready for peace, and they already had approached the Russians and, I think, the Swiss. And that suggestion of [giving] a warning [of the atomic bomb] was a face-saving proposition for them, and one that they could have readily accepted." He continued, "In my opinion, the Japanese war was really won before we ever used the atom bomb. Thus, it wouldn't have been necessary for us to disclose our nuclear position and stimulate the Russians to develop the same thing much more rapidly than they would have if we had not dropped the bomb."

War Was Really Won Before We Used A-Bomb, U.S. News and World Report, 8/15/60, pg. 73-75.

____________________





Here's a longer article that also talks about the secret talks with Stalin... TreasonousBastard Aug 2018 #1
Thanks for posting the article. MichMary Aug 2018 #3
My father was in Patton's 3rd Army and managed to escape unharmed... TreasonousBastard Aug 2018 #16
So was my father! greatauntoftriplets Aug 2018 #22
My dad was in the Pacific dflprincess Aug 2018 #110
saying "there was no choice" is such a cop-out cvoogt Aug 2018 #2
Japan was negotiating surrender.. MicaelS Aug 2018 #4
And it ended up being a nice show of force to the Soviets Roland99 Aug 2018 #19
Absolutely. MicaelS Aug 2018 #20
Absolutely Separation Aug 2018 #33
The Japanese government was MichMary Aug 2018 #6
Consider that the Italian Government surrendered in 1943... brooklynite Aug 2018 #94
That sounds all well and good BannonsLiver Aug 2018 #8
Good lord. Goodheart Aug 2018 #15
Over a million Japanese troops under arms in China at the time of the surrender, perfectly capable.. Marengo Aug 2018 #31
At the time Separation Aug 2018 #37
I'm not sure you understand the meaning of hindsight is 20/20 BannonsLiver Aug 2018 #95
I know precisely what it means. Goodheart Aug 2018 #134
And, that's a bad argument in any case... Goodheart Aug 2018 #28
Asked and answered BannonsLiver Aug 2018 #96
Plenty Of Hindsight There ProfessorGAC Aug 2018 #11
Some people believed that their was an added factor of racism... CTyankee Aug 2018 #29
Bombing Germany would have raised eyebrows sarisataka Aug 2018 #32
+1000 NT Adrahil Aug 2018 #104
I dont. The bombs weren't ready in time for Germany DetroitLegalBeagle Aug 2018 #35
It Wasn't Done Until The Euro Theater Was Over ProfessorGAC Aug 2018 #46
Germany wasn't considered as a primary target as its defeat was expected to occur before before Marengo Aug 2018 #63
Hindsight goes both ways cvoogt Aug 2018 #81
Huh? ProfessorGAC Aug 2018 #102
not circular logic cvoogt Aug 2018 #105
If Japan blockaded Vladivostok and destroyed some of the bridges and tunnels of the... TreasonousBastard Aug 2018 #13
The Soviets Declaring War on Japan Leith Aug 2018 #25
Truman found out fast at Potsdam. Separation Aug 2018 #48
Wasn't aware Putin was anywhere near Yalta. shanny Aug 2018 #57
Lol freudian slip Separation Aug 2018 #58
Racism would have been a factor. dixiegrrrrl Aug 2018 #103
. sarisataka Aug 2018 #5
Wait . . . MichMary Aug 2018 #7
Yeah, sorta kinda... Wounded Bear Aug 2018 #10
Indeed it is nt sarisataka Aug 2018 #26
Yup, it's the annual self-flagellation day hardluck Aug 2018 #49
No choice, my ass. Goodheart Aug 2018 #9
Ask the POWs in Japanese camps what they think about shortening the war. BSdetect Aug 2018 #12
+1 geardaddy Aug 2018 #21
Our atomic bombs killed 40,000 to 50,000 innocent Koreans who were held in Japan as slaves. Goodheart Aug 2018 #27
The Japanese or Germans would have used atomic weapons if they had them before us. BSdetect Aug 2018 #38
Both the Germans and Japanese were years away from making an atomic bomb VMA131Marine Aug 2018 #62
Uh, in regards to Germany being "years away", you are wrong. Heavy water was already being produced. tonyt53 Aug 2018 #127
Uh, no! They were years away. VMA131Marine Aug 2018 #135
I went to the Japanese military shrine and museum at Yasukuni last week Yupster Aug 2018 #117
A quotation from Felix FRANKFURTER, though even this will be gigged by some: UTUSN Aug 2018 #14
I think genxlib Aug 2018 #17
I used to think that also. Eko Aug 2018 #80
You could be right genxlib Aug 2018 #93
I agree that waiting a few more days would have been right Yupster Aug 2018 #119
I was just a day or two over a week old when it happened. MineralMan Aug 2018 #18
My opinion had MicaelS Aug 2018 #23
Really, I never get involved in arguments MineralMan Aug 2018 #24
It was a weapon we developed to fight WWII, no one else had one until long after WWII was in the braddy Aug 2018 #39
Someone had to be first Cartoonist Aug 2018 #40
As I said, I don't get into arguments about this at all. MineralMan Aug 2018 #41
Good point. nt zanana1 Aug 2018 #133
It was a good decision. nt LexVegas Aug 2018 #30
Fact is, we are the only country to have killed thousands of innocent people with a "special" bomb. Hoyt Aug 2018 #34
We had them surrounded and cut off from the world Cartoonist Aug 2018 #47
We have different views on humane. Hoyt Aug 2018 #50
You didn't answer my question Cartoonist Aug 2018 #53
Ask top generals, admirals from the time. Starvation is your rationale. Hoyt Aug 2018 #56
The Nation is a Russian propaganda rag BannonsLiver Aug 2018 #111
They didn't have to go because there was no reason to go. Those in charge were Hoyt Aug 2018 #112
My dad was ONE of them. In the first US landing in the Pacific, and war effort ended at Iwo Jima. tonyt53 Aug 2018 #129
They Were Already Starved Leith Aug 2018 #64
Maybe we should have taken them food, rather than burning kids with our bombs. Hoyt Aug 2018 #65
Is the First Name on the List Tojo? Leith Aug 2018 #66
Why do you believe the "bomb em" folks. I don't see how annihilating two important Japanese Hoyt Aug 2018 #67
sigh... Leith Aug 2018 #78
Some people are fine with bombs whether defeated Japan, Vietnam, Iraq, etc. Hoyt Aug 2018 #79
That Was Going Too Far and You Know It Leith Aug 2018 #85
Oh, that's a fat load of horse crap. GaYellowDawg Aug 2018 #113
War was over, we are only country to nuke anyone, we are racist, we bully the world now and Hoyt Aug 2018 #114
Wrong GaYellowDawg Aug 2018 #115
And you aren't willing to accept another narrative either. No, I got the point on Civil War and I Hoyt Aug 2018 #118
You have to understand where the population was zipplewrath Aug 2018 #36
Not just us, I bet the Chinese, Brits, Filipinos, Aussies, New Zealand, Koreans, etc., etc., etc., braddy Aug 2018 #43
Some folks might have taken to streets, probably same ones who'd vote for trump or bush. Hoyt Aug 2018 #55
Sorta zipplewrath Aug 2018 #74
"Use it" especially against Asians. We could have demonstrated it on a deserted island. Hoyt Aug 2018 #76
They were afraid it might not work zipplewrath Aug 2018 #88
Oh cool. It might not work, so let's drop it on a bunch of Asians, Hoyt Aug 2018 #91
Sumpin' like that zipplewrath Aug 2018 #92
If Asian casualties are a marker, what about Imperial Japan's "Rape of Nanking," in 1937? VOX Aug 2018 #98
So are you saying we nuked innocent Japanese 8 years after Rape of Nanking as justified retribution? Hoyt Aug 2018 #99
No, I'm not saying that at all. The thread was implying that nukes were okay'd, because...Asians. VOX Aug 2018 #116
The Japanese were slaughtering innocent Chinese, Filipinos, Indonesians, etc until the very end. hack89 Aug 2018 #120
So China should have nuked us for slaughtering innocent Vietnamese and Iraqis? Hoyt Aug 2018 #121
The Chinese were not also killing Americans hack89 Aug 2018 #122
Eisenhower, Halsey, etc., think you are wrong. Hoyt Aug 2018 #123
When would the firing bombing of cities have ended? hack89 Aug 2018 #128
They were defeated and surrounded, do a little reading including Eisenhower's view. Hoyt Aug 2018 #130
So you really think the killing was going to end on 15 August no matter what? hack89 Aug 2018 #131
We appear stuck on this issue, just like your support of guns. The two are similar in many ways. Hoyt Aug 2018 #137
I will take that as a no - the killing would have continued. nt hack89 Aug 2018 #138
The ludicrously expensive and dangerous uranium bomb was a sure thing. hunter Aug 2018 #109
WRONG!!! In the words of Truman's own former CoS: malchickiwick Aug 2018 #42
Except for this inconvenient fact Cartoonist Aug 2018 #44
They surrendered after the Soviets declared war on Japan. Correlation or causation? malchickiwick Aug 2018 #45
Do you know how to read a calendar? Cartoonist Aug 2018 #51
Actually, they had offered terms of surrender before Hiroshima (via the Swiss). malchickiwick Aug 2018 #60
They were dropped for alot of reasons zipplewrath Aug 2018 #89
"They" zipplewrath Aug 2018 #72
All true, can't argue with anything in your post, which is well-nuanced. malchickiwick Aug 2018 #75
I was born after the bomb was dropped cvoogt Aug 2018 #82
Several of those quotes likely don't mean what you think they mean stevenleser Aug 2018 #84
Japan chose not to end the war and vowed to fight to the death before the first beachbum bob Aug 2018 #52
We didnt just kill Japanese Tiggeroshii Aug 2018 #54
My Dad was about to be sent over there. rickford66 Aug 2018 #59
This comes up every year on August 6th sdfernando Aug 2018 #61
Every year, like clockwork. roamer65 Aug 2018 #69
Both my parents were serving in the Pacific in 1945 csziggy Aug 2018 #68
We weren't going to stop at Nagasaki. roamer65 Aug 2018 #70
This BULLSHIT again? GeorgeGist Aug 2018 #71
Cool kids gotta prove how cool they are. nt Codeine Aug 2018 #73
Oh, god. Here we go again. Iggo Aug 2018 #77
My Father Was in the Navy in the Phillipines. Preparing for invasion. bitterross Aug 2018 #83
Exactly zipplewrath Aug 2018 #90
My father Mendocino Aug 2018 #86
It was the last opportunity to test these new atomic weapons on living cities. hunter Aug 2018 #87
It must be the first week in August: DU gets to refight the war none of us remembers personally Hekate Aug 2018 #97
I Come And Stand at Every Door. Hoyt Aug 2018 #100
My problem is more with the second bomb thucythucy Aug 2018 #101
Welcome to the 2018 DU A - Bomb debate Algernon Moncrieff Aug 2018 #106
I had long discussions with my parents, especially my Mom on this before they passed... hlthe2b Aug 2018 #107
My dad was in Guam and the Phillipines nini Aug 2018 #125
Those who opposed the bombings will always oppose it left-of-center2012 Aug 2018 #108
I smell divide and conquer. McCamy Taylor Aug 2018 #124
Fully support his decision. nt LexVegas Aug 2018 #126
"Projecting some scary American casualty numbers"? zanana1 Aug 2018 #132
Not that I expect this to change anyone's mind on the subject melm00se Aug 2018 #136
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