General Discussion

JHan

(10,173 posts)

45. And none of it is simple to do..

Mon Aug 20, 2018, 10:07 AM

Aug 2018

( and Before anyone tells me I don't think healthcare is a right, I do believe it is a right).

Often European countries are referenced when talking about this plan but no country in Europe has medicare for all. European health care systems are hybrid systems or, "multi-payer" which incorporate private insurance.

Healthcare in America is complicated. From Medicare D plans to how Medicare costs will be absorbed are important policy details defenders of this plan shouldn't dismiss as criticism coming from "haters".

Protecting the ACA should be the focus of all Democrats. An imperiled ACA is what drove constituents last year to challenge their Republican representatives in town halls. Now the talk is Medicare for all while Republicans kill the ACA by stealth. Once the public option is restored to the ACA, further expansion and reform can be tagged on. I know why this is being pushed right now and it remains an awful strategy.

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Jake Tapper/factcheck.org on claims about the Koch Bros funded study on health care costs [View all] ehrnst Aug 2018 OP

Some have lifted small portions of that "study" and isolated sentences to claim, to the effect.... George II Aug 2018 #1

I saw that. That's a very deceptive and dishonest thing to do. NurseJackie Aug 2018 #40

Facts matter mcar Aug 2018 #2

We Pay Twice As Much For Crap Care Still Go Bankrupt PaulX2 Aug 2018 #8

How does this relate to what Sanders and AOC said about the Koch funded study? (nt) ehrnst Aug 2018 #17

No one is disagreeing with any of that, and we are all perfectly aware of it. Your insistence on Squinch Aug 2018 #27

Did you mean to address this to me? mcar Aug 2018 #37

What does this have to do with Sanders' and AOC's claims about the conclusions of the study? ehrnst Aug 2018 #39

If BS and OC want Medicare for All, this is exactly the way NOT to go about it. Squinch Aug 2018 #3

Bull fucking shit! GeorgeGist Aug 2018 #5

Well, George, your erudite analysis has left me breathless. Squinch Aug 2018 #6

lollololool JHan Aug 2018 #12

... ehrnst Aug 2018 #32

... Me. Aug 2018 #51

+++++lol heaven05 Aug 2018 #66

Are you saying that about Factcheck.org, Jake Tapper, or both? (nt) ehrnst Aug 2018 #10

What is "bull fucking shit" about it? George II Aug 2018 #22

What's got your knickers in Cha Aug 2018 #38

I can be difficult to muster up words beyond that of a bumper-sticker. Nice try, though. LanternWaste Aug 2018 #87

You got nothing, otherwise you would have stated something beyond a four-letter word. . . . nt Bernardo de La Paz Aug 2018 #101

Great post, Squinch. nt brer cat Aug 2018 #15

They're not lying. They're just not very good at math. raging moderate Aug 2018 #53

I don't think that it's just the math they got wrong. ehrnst Aug 2018 #63

Scorch! Cha Aug 2018 #72

Healthcare Is A Right You Bast*rds. PaulX2 Aug 2018 #4

Nice try. If we want it, we need to work it out. Which is obviously possible to do. But Squinch Aug 2018 #7

He's Been Saying Medicare For All For Years PaulX2 Aug 2018 #11

How does this refute what Tapper and Factcheck.org are saying? (nt) ehrnst Aug 2018 #13

Koch Study Was Good Just Left Stuff Out PaulX2 Aug 2018 #18

What exactly? Where did Factcheck.org get it wrong about what Sanders and AOC claimed? ehrnst Aug 2018 #19

No, the analysis is that the "Koch Study Was Good Just Left Stuff Out", but... George II Aug 2018 #44

Which experts? Do you have a link? N/T lapucelle Aug 2018 #107

Can you link to an expert? lapucelle Aug 2018 #112

It said "fact" twice. In big letters. That's not enough for you??8? Squinch Aug 2018 #25

Well, there you have it, then. I'm convinced! NurseJackie Aug 2018 #54

No one is disagreeing that healthcare is a right. Squinch Aug 2018 #21

No one here thinks healthcare isn't a right. ehrnst Aug 2018 #26

seems that way to me heaven05 Aug 2018 #68

Can you direct me to his plan to pay for it, and the progress he's made over the years? TIA. George II Aug 2018 #55

Which "Koch numbers" are we supposed to add lapucelle Aug 2018 #108

Are you calling this "Fake News?" ehrnst Aug 2018 #9

Actually Yes PaulX2 Aug 2018 #14

What did they leave out about the claims that Sanders and AOC have made ehrnst Aug 2018 #16

Factcheck.org Left Out The Unaccounted For Externalities PaulX2 Aug 2018 #20

How does that refute the analysis of what AOC and Sanders said about it? ehrnst Aug 2018 #24

You Didn't See The Interviews My Friend PaulX2 Aug 2018 #28

You're just avoiding the question, because you can't answer it. ehrnst Aug 2018 #29

Increased Productivity By Sick People Being Treated PaulX2 Aug 2018 #33

You are still just throwing out phrases with no context, and no citations, My Friend. ehrnst Aug 2018 #34

From Memory PaulX2 Aug 2018 #35

Citations are far more verifiable than one's "memory." ehrnst Aug 2018 #36

What's the time frame for the initial negative externalities lapucelle Aug 2018 #113

Can you give an example of any unaccounted externality in the Mercatus study? lapucelle Aug 2018 #111

I heard that a couple of weeks ago from a Democratic Congressional candidate, that "death cost". George II Aug 2018 #41

Actually, the author of the study said that they got his conclusions wrong. ehrnst Aug 2018 #42

Bazinga! George II Aug 2018 #57

Can you link to the experts and/or interviews? N/T lapucelle Aug 2018 #109

And, you bast*rds, how dare you suggest that the rest of us don't believe healthcare is a right? Squinch Aug 2018 #23

Facts are good things Gothmog Aug 2018 #30

It seems to me that this thread is a perfect illustration of the stupidity of the Squinch Aug 2018 #31

+1000! mcar Aug 2018 #43

Well said. mythology Aug 2018 #47

pretty much. JHan Aug 2018 #48

"we should be calling the division "purists" vs. "realists." " --- AMEN! NurseJackie Aug 2018 #56

Slightly different perspective zipplewrath Aug 2018 #62

So you think that Factcheck.org and Tapper got it wrong? (nt) ehrnst Aug 2018 #67

Somewhat zipplewrath Aug 2018 #70

Was it purists or "realists" that removed the public option and Medicare buy in from the ACA? Humanist_Activist Aug 2018 #92

If it was not removed, we would not have gotten the votes to pass ACA in the Senate. SunSeeker Aug 2018 #97

Yep - Ted Kennedy thought that we might have something now that is closer to what Canada has ehrnst Aug 2018 #124

Exactly. nt SunSeeker Aug 2018 #126

Was it the purists or the realists that got the first healthcare plan that has ever been passed Squinch Aug 2018 #100

It still doesn't cover the general public because of the loopholes that allowed Republicans... Humanist_Activist Aug 2018 #103

So Republicans' actions are the fault of the Democrats who passed ACA? Kay. Squinch Aug 2018 #104

Where am I blaming Democrats? They did the best they could, we, on the ground... Humanist_Activist Aug 2018 #105

We should work to restore it, then expand it incrementally. ehrnst Aug 2018 #125

OFFS. You blamed Dems up the thread for "removing" the public option. SunSeeker Aug 2018 #129

+1000. (nt) ehrnst Aug 2018 #130

Results are far better than unrealized promises. (nt) ehrnst Aug 2018 #127

That ought to be self evident, but this thread seems to show that to some it isn't. Squinch Aug 2018 #128

+1 nt Skidmore Aug 2018 #93

And none of it is simple to do.. JHan Aug 2018 #45

Horseshoes and hand grenades. Even if it's $2 Trillion more over 10 years, everyone has insurance. TheBlackAdder Aug 2018 #46

And if we find it is 2 trillion more, then we can easily do what we need to do to fund it, namely Squinch Aug 2018 #49

If we find, it's there at $200B/yr. If it were an increase, we're talking 6.7%. It could be even. TheBlackAdder Aug 2018 #52

How does this address what CNN and factcheck.org say about what the study actually concluded vs ehrnst Aug 2018 #73

It doesn't. TheBlackAdder Aug 2018 #75

The "larger objective" seems to be that Sanders and MFA are ehrnst Aug 2018 #89

The larger objective should be to get a senate version of HR 676 written and passed. lapucelle Aug 2018 #114

The Conyers version HR 676 is fully funded. lapucelle Aug 2018 #115

Not so "picayune" details ehrnst Aug 2018 #132

This fact checked needs some fact checking. Based on a completely bogus statement. Nanjeanne Aug 2018 #50

LOL! Such careful splitting of hairs and obvious word-games means you've already lost the argument. NurseJackie Aug 2018 #58

Yes, the taxpayers are "the American People" and what the government spends ehrnst Aug 2018 #60

Well, you're missing some money zipplewrath Aug 2018 #69

I was referring to the false distinction separating "the American People" from Taxpayers ehrnst Aug 2018 #71

Not sure that's right zipplewrath Aug 2018 #74

As a matter of funding this program - the American people will do so through the Govt. ehrnst Aug 2018 #81

You know Tapper agreed zipplewrath Aug 2018 #86

But that isn't what Sanders was saying, the American People also pay copays, premiums.... Humanist_Activist Aug 2018 #77

What Sanders says on copays and premiums is not what he said ehrnst Aug 2018 #82

Do you think Factcheck.org also be "ashamed of themselves?" ehrnst Aug 2018 #59

Yes absolutely. If you use flawed data as a means to analyze something then Nanjeanne Aug 2018 #61

So are you saying that Sanders and AOC are quoting "flawed data" ehrnst Aug 2018 #65

I know what Tapper said but his conclusion on the accuracy of Sanders and AOC is simply Nanjeanne Aug 2018 #76

So you think that the author of the study should not be trusted concerning his conclusions ehrnst Aug 2018 #85

Ok I'll try again and then I give up. I think the author of the Koch funded analysis that was based Nanjeanne Aug 2018 #88

+1.nt Snotcicles Aug 2018 #90

Point out their lies heaven05 Aug 2018 #64

He starts off with a claim that is not true, neither Sanders nor AOC are talking about saving... Humanist_Activist Aug 2018 #78

He says the Koch brothers, who have control over their hiring and firing, didn't influence... Hassin Bin Sober Aug 2018 #79

Yes, Sanders and AOC are citing a Koch bros funded study as backing him up ehrnst Aug 2018 #83

So what is his conclusion, is it going to cost the same, significantly more, or less? N/t Humanist_Activist Aug 2018 #91

More. ehrnst Aug 2018 #94

Where is his evidence for this, even assuming disbursement payments match levels of insurance... Humanist_Activist Aug 2018 #95

Apparently that's what they are saying. Even the study author says so. ehrnst Aug 2018 #84

Fact Matter. sheshe2 Aug 2018 #80

If we implement Medicare for all the only losers will be the 1% KWR65 Aug 2018 #96

Truth matters. nt SunSeeker Aug 2018 #98

this a slip shod fact check dsc Aug 2018 #99

Bingo! Hassin Bin Sober Aug 2018 #102

Throughout this thread the facts - not alternative facts - have been posted. But you know, it's Nanjeanne Aug 2018 #106

You are calling factcheck.org "alternate facts?" ehrnst Aug 2018 #119

Oh dear God you really are trying too hard to be obtuse. Fact-check is an Nanjeanne Aug 2018 #120

Yes, I know factcheck.org is an organization ehrnst Aug 2018 #121

Where do you thing the US government gets its funds from? ucrdem Aug 2018 #116

It could be from corporations and foreigners as well as the people dsc Aug 2018 #131

Making that false distinction is usually a right wing strategy to demonize "government" ehrnst Aug 2018 #118

The Corpo line-no more Ponies! jalan48 Aug 2018 #110

Factcheck.org and Politifact is "corpo line?" ehrnst Aug 2018 #117

Corpo Health Care. jalan48 Aug 2018 #122

I fail to see how factcheck.org or Politifact or the Washington Post are ehrnst Aug 2018 #123

Charles & David thank you for your work! aidbo Aug 2018 #133

KR For Accuracy Me. Aug 2018 #134