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WilmywoodNCparalegal

(2,654 posts)
24. Lots of inaccuracies about H-1Bs and a general misunderstanding of how the legal immigration process
Fri Aug 10, 2012, 11:25 AM
Aug 2012

works... not surprising, even on DU.

First of all, there is fraud in everything - from visas to food stamps to healthcare to the military to anything else. Just because companies like Infosys have committed fraud does not mean everybody does it. Again, I wish to reiterate that I've been working in this field (legal immigration) for a long time. I know more about it than most lawyers, which is why I get paid rather well for my knowledge. I've worked with some of the largest companies, as well as other professionals and start-ups in a variety of industries ranging from IT to entertainment, fashion to medicine, etc. In all my years of work, I have yet to come across one visa petition that I either completed and/or signed that did not comply with the immigration laws in force, including prevailing wage attestations for H-1Bs. Since for the most part I didn't work alone, I can also tell you my colleagues were as diligent as I was and most of my coworkers are born and bred U.S. citizens.

Currently, the H-1B cap is 58,000 per fiscal year (October 1), plus a few more for Master's or above graduates from U.S. universities, graduates in STEM and Singaporean/Chilean citizens. Most are gobbled up by IT, but not all are. The rest are for other professionals whose jobs require at least a U.S. bachelor's or foreign equivalent or above (scientists, accountants, etc.) and a good chunk is reserved for ... fashion models of acclaim who don't rise to the level of supermodels (for whom the O-1 extraordinary ability category best fits). In other words, engineers are not the great majority of H-1B recipients.

Moreover, using a source such as CounterPunch, which provides no back-up to its assertion that H-1B workers lower the wages for everyone else, is not beneficial. Since there are 58,000 H-1Bs available per given year as opposed to millions of workers, that's a rather small percentage of workers with seemingly amazing powers to determine wages for everyone else???? It is rather silly as an argument. Additiionally, before we forget, it is actually rather expensive for employers to hire anyone in any visa category (H, L, E, O, etc.). By law, employers are required to pay the filing fees (currently $2,325 for a new H-1B) for the H-1B as well as some other visa categories. Moreover, they also pay the legal fees. In other words, if a company wants to hire anyone on a visa status, you have to tack on an additional $5,000 to $10,000 or more in legal fees from the get-go, without any guarantee that this person will actually qualify and be approved for any visa.

If anything, the great majority of fraud comes from the L-1B visa - intracompany transferee with 'specialized knowledge' - a visa classification that is rife with abuses because there are no prevailing wage requirements, no education requirements or anything else to prevent a lousy employer to pay nothing to the workers and treating them like indentured servants. L-1Bs are not even required to be paid in U.S. dollars and the cost of an L-1B is much lower than an H-1B. For IT companies, the L-1Bs are much easier to obtain, cheaper, faster and not subject to the Congress-mandated cap. Indeed, this is how many companies can bring in 10 workers for the price of one U.S. worker. The H visa program is much more restrictive, more expensive, slower, much more regulated and much more frequently audited.

The J visa is not an employment-based visa. An employer does not petition for J-1 visa workers. A J visa is for trainees who are allowed a maximum of 18 months before being subjected (in most cases) to a two-year residency requirement (meaning that they have to remain abroad for two years prior to being able to apply for other visa classifications). In order for someone to obtain a J visa, s/he must make an application with a third-party NGO or government agency that has training programs available. Normally, there is a training program in place with benchmarks and ways to measure performance or learning objectives. However, many of these third-party NGOs use this J program as an 'intern' and 'unpaid trainee' program, circumventing the aim and true goals of the J program, which initially were to expose foreign trainees to American ways and culture. Again, this is not an employer-based visa, so the fault lies in these third-party NGOs that offer these fraudulent programs.

And, finally, the famous (or rather infamous) labor certification video. First of all, the labor certification is NOT related to H-1B visas. The labor certification is Stage I for those already working in the U.S. on a visa who are seeking to become U.S. permanent residents via employer sponsorship (in other words, those who want to get a green card). There are basically two main ways to get permanent residence: via family sponsorship or via employer sponsorship. For most who are on an employer-sponsored visa, the labor certification process will be the first step.

I'm not sure when this video was made, but since May 2007 the new PERM rules have been in place which dictate various compliance matters for the employer: (1) employer must pay all expenses including legal fees and employee cannot be asked to reimburse or have their pay deducted; (2) the employer must request a prevailing wage determination from the DOL and (3) must pay at least the PW amount or more; (4) the ads must run for two consecutive Sundays in a local newspaper and (5) for professional positions there are additional recruitment criteria; (6) any resume received must be screened and if the applicant appears to meet the minimum qualifications for the job, then the applicant must be interviewed but can be disqualified if s/he is not willing to accept the wage offered and/or s/he is not a U.S. citizen or green card holder. Please note, however, that the job ad cannot be tailored to the alien's work or work experience.

These PERMs are audited consistently and very often by DOL. In fact, lately they are pretty much auditing all of them. Not all get approved and it does happen that an applicant is successfully interviewed and hired, thus stopping the process (I just had this happen).

However, the PERM and H-1Bs have nothing to do with one another. H-1Bs don't require ads in the paper or proving your recruitment practices, while PERMs do.

Lastly, as a legal immigrant myself, I'd like to point out that some posters say jobs should be for U.S. citizens only. That's not correct, as per the law. Any job - unless it's a certain federal job - is open to anyone who can legally work in the U.S. That includes U.S. citizens AND lawful permanent residents (a/k/a 'green card' holders), as well as a few others who are authorized to work for any employer without restrictions (for instance, people in the process of getting their green cards who have Employment Authorization Documents - EADs - as well as certain asylees and refugees). In other words, the only way a job can be for U.S. citizens only is for that job to be a federal job and/or one that requires security clearances. All other jobs are open to any of the categories above.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

K&R baldguy Aug 2012 #1
Du rec. Nt xchrom Aug 2012 #2
The video at the end is the end all to the H1 argument, these companies are taught NOT TO HIRE uponit7771 Aug 2012 #3
I was a hiring manager Indian Invasion Oct 2012 #134
Are you saying that you paid Americans a different salary for the same job Ms. Toad Oct 2012 #135
I am indian loansstore Aug 2012 #4
I'd ask where you're posting from if you didn't get a visa, but... JHB Aug 2012 #5
There could be a number of factors for this including the Obama admin catching on to H1B visa issues uponit7771 Aug 2012 #17
It has, and always will be about procuring cheap labor, laws are meant to be sidelined by the new mother earth Aug 2012 #6
There is NO shortage of qualified americans, only a corporate desire to pay less than market rates on point Aug 2012 #7
Reminds me of a person who murdered his parents and ... twins.fan Aug 2012 #42
Corporations are bringing in cheap, cheap labor because the only organization fasttense Aug 2012 #8
"Most of those H1B laborers got their education tuition free." abelenkpe Aug 2012 #26
Nurses were pointing this out..... AnneD Aug 2012 #9
+1 uponit7771 Aug 2012 #18
Nice work, Zalatix. K&R. Brickbat Aug 2012 #10
Nicely done ChromeFoundry Aug 2012 #11
Work Visa Programs Like H-1B Target Experienced Americans Dr Gene Nelson Aug 2012 #12
Welcome to DU Ruby the Liberal Aug 2012 #29
good post eShirl Aug 2012 #108
Excellent post. 99Forever Aug 2012 #13
H1Bs have to be paid the Prevailing Wage treestar Aug 2012 #14
And if you put a tooth under your pillow, you'll get a shiny nickel!! jeff47 Aug 2012 #20
*crickets* Zalatix Aug 2012 #23
Prevailing wage is the one published by the DOL and freely available online WilmywoodNCparalegal Aug 2012 #25
Here's the key parts jeff47 Aug 2012 #43
You've already been shown proof in the OP that you are flat-out wrong. Zalatix Aug 2012 #22
Funny abelenkpe Aug 2012 #27
Except that's not what's happening. Did you read the links in the OP and in the thread, btw? sabrina 1 Aug 2012 #36
Post #34 is further proof that H1Bs are underpaid. Do you have any counter-evidence? Zalatix Aug 2012 #54
So funny, it's sad. SteveSmithCharlotte Aug 2012 #59
jsut like gkr Sep 2012 #131
Hey, where'd ya go? Union Scribe Aug 2012 #90
HA! eShirl Aug 2012 #109
K & R AzDar Aug 2012 #15
H1B or how to filp a page in a manual without the caller hearing DainBramaged Aug 2012 #16
I work in an IT field OnionPatch Aug 2012 #19
+1 sarcasmo Aug 2012 #31
you are right on the money gkr Sep 2012 #132
Well Said and Agreed OhioChick Aug 2012 #21
Lots of inaccuracies about H-1Bs and a general misunderstanding of how the legal immigration process WilmywoodNCparalegal Aug 2012 #24
Thanks for an informed post. But I'm not sure it disproves the claims that sabrina 1 Aug 2012 #38
Could you at least be consistent when trying to justify destroying my profession? jeff47 Aug 2012 #45
same here Panasonic Aug 2012 #49
you are missing out gkr Sep 2012 #133
Yes, lots of inaccuracies and many of them coming from you. n/t Egalitarian Thug Aug 2012 #47
Well done! Ruby the Liberal Aug 2012 #28
I would bet that master's or phd degrees in engineering are not needed for many of those "jobs". L0oniX Aug 2012 #30
Take a look SteveSmithCharlotte Aug 2012 #60
Great post Zalatix twins.fan Aug 2012 #32
Welcome to DU twins.fan sabrina 1 Aug 2012 #37
Dice has been at the veyr center of this scam since its inception. Egalitarian Thug Aug 2012 #48
Thanks for the info, I had never heard of it. sabrina 1 Aug 2012 #51
Strictly IT, or at least used to be. And you're always welcome. n/t Egalitarian Thug Aug 2012 #52
Wow! And Welcome to DU! Zalatix Aug 2012 #53
Cannot issue private message twins.fan Aug 2012 #55
An IT labor economics lesson from Memphis for IBM antigop Aug 2012 #33
The underpayment of H-1Bs is well-established fact, not rumor, anecdote or ideology. antigop Aug 2012 #34
Are H-1B Workers Getting Bilked? twins.fan Aug 2012 #56
Relative to their home country, no bilking. Relative to US workers, yes. (nt) jeff47 Aug 2012 #61
Patni is from a country whose corruption is legendary twins.fan Aug 2012 #62
I'm speaking more of the opportunity to the specific worker jeff47 Aug 2012 #64
Bingo! rock Aug 2012 #35
kicked southmost Aug 2012 #39
K&R Don't forget the ever-popular change the job title strategy. Egalitarian Thug Aug 2012 #40
K&R for the excellent rebuttal and bullship cleanup duty. n/t pa28 Aug 2012 #41
HB-1's also point to the nasty side of Corps Hydra Aug 2012 #44
Yes the corporations are nasty, but so are their proxies twins.fan Aug 2012 #63
Damn Straight. It's about time we started putting Americans first. American Made Aug 2012 #46
We are the only ones who can change it too! twins.fan Aug 2012 #65
The Labor Party is Dead..eom pipoman Aug 2012 #50
Lying and cheating. SouthAsian59 Aug 2012 #57
There's always at least one in every crowd SteveSmithCharlotte Aug 2012 #58
I totally agree. Thank You agent zero Aug 2012 #66
Racism masked as "Dey took er jobs!" boppers Aug 2012 #67
Enough with the anti-American worker bigotry. Those jobs belong to us. Period. Dot. Stop. Zalatix Aug 2012 #68
Ahh, ultra-nationalism. joshcryer Aug 2012 #69
What is your problem with American workers having jobs, anyway? Zalatix Aug 2012 #70
I'm pro-immigrant and therefore think that they should *be* American citizens. joshcryer Aug 2012 #72
They're being used as pools of cheap labor. You keep denying this. Why is that? Zalatix Aug 2012 #74
Where have I "denied that" they lower wages under the current system? joshcryer Aug 2012 #76
I want the American citizen Engineers who are out of work to get those jobs first. Period. Zalatix Aug 2012 #78
As I said, ultranationalism. I want whoever is experienced to get whatever... joshcryer Aug 2012 #79
And you are still trying to sell bigotry. Zalatix Aug 2012 #81
They have a right to not work as engineers, too. joshcryer Aug 2012 #82
You lie once again. The problem is not incompetency, though you'd like to accuse Americans of that. Zalatix Aug 2012 #85
It has nothing to do with dirt cheap wages, it's about education... joshcryer Aug 2012 #88
It has everything to do with cheap labor. You are still wrong in accusing Americans of incompetence. Zalatix Aug 2012 #91
Cheap labor is a side effect, not a reason for it. joshcryer Aug 2012 #92
It is not a side effect, it is the primary lure of hiring H1B's. Zalatix Aug 2012 #95
Since you've now simply begun repeating yourself... joshcryer Aug 2012 #97
And I don't take kindly to you boldly lying about American workers, either. Zalatix Aug 2012 #100
By the numbers: boppers Aug 2012 #111
By the numbers - you're still spouting baseless assertions. Zalatix Aug 2012 #112
Okay... boppers Aug 2012 #115
Still no facts, just your hateful and ultra-biased opinions. Your argument is 100% FAIL. Zalatix Aug 2012 #117
See: Dice.com boppers Aug 2012 #119
LOL you don't even know how to back up your assertions, do you? Zalatix Aug 2012 #121
Here is the problem: SteveSmithCharlotte Aug 2012 #127
People don't understand the screening tests these companies have for hiring. joshcryer Aug 2012 #89
More desperate lies about American workers. Zalatix Aug 2012 #102
You've repeatedly called me a liar without showing it. joshcryer Aug 2012 #103
I called you a liar because you FAILED to prove your claim. Zalatix Aug 2012 #105
But if you pay for college, shouldn't you get a job? boppers Aug 2012 #113
Daily Kos: My Problems with the Programmers Guild joshcryer Aug 2012 #71
Right wing talking point? 91% of Democrats are on my side, not yours. Have a nice day! Zalatix Aug 2012 #73
Insourcing is different from outsourcing. Nice straw man though. joshcryer Aug 2012 #75
We already have a GLUT of American engineers with ADVANCED DEGREES looking for work. Zalatix Aug 2012 #77
That is patently false. Unemployment for engineers it 2%. TWO PERCENT. joshcryer Aug 2012 #80
What I said is perfectly correct. And I have cites, too. Zalatix Aug 2012 #83
I guess you want Obama to "dance a jig" too? I addressed that in #82. joshcryer Aug 2012 #84
Oooh, and now you're being racist, too. "Obama dance a jig"? Where did that BS come from? Zalatix Aug 2012 #86
There's a reason that demand for engineers is high. joshcryer Aug 2012 #87
No, it has nothing to do with "failure to educate our citizens". Zero. Zip. Nada. Zalatix Aug 2012 #93
I just quoted the stat and you repeated yourself! joshcryer Aug 2012 #94
I repeated myself because your "facts" are in error. Your "evidence" is as clear as mud. Zalatix Aug 2012 #96
You're saying the Brookings Institute is lying. joshcryer Aug 2012 #98
Yup, I sure am saying their "facts" are half-truths. And they are half-truths. Zalatix Aug 2012 #101
The unemployment rate for engineers is currently 4.9% SteveSmithCharlotte Aug 2012 #129
Tech doesn't win by votes. boppers Aug 2012 #116
Tech doesn't win by your baseless assertions, either. Zalatix Aug 2012 #118
Here's a fun question I once got asked: boppers Aug 2012 #120
Nice story. Zalatix Aug 2012 #122
Brookings Institute on H1Bs: joshcryer Aug 2012 #99
No shortage of QUALIFIED American Engineers. Sorry, you're wrong again. Zalatix Aug 2012 #104
Brookings Makes No Sense Here SteveSmithCharlotte Aug 2012 #125
The DailyKos post shows why Labor is screwed ... SteveSmithCharlotte Aug 2012 #124
If companies are abusing the H1B one system then fine them. davidpdx Aug 2012 #106
Better than a $5 million fine Zalatix Aug 2012 #107
Yeah that sounds good davidpdx Aug 2012 #110
And third strike = Federal prison time. Zalatix Aug 2012 #114
davidpdx, the problem is SteveSmithCharlotte Aug 2012 #126
Steve I believe you davidpdx Aug 2012 #128
Zalatix, this thread is a monument to why labor is screwed in this country .... SteveSmithCharlotte Aug 2012 #123
I totally agree we need to talk more about the illegal immigration problem. agent zero Aug 2012 #130
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