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moriah

(8,312 posts)
37. Beg to differ *slightly*.
Tue Aug 28, 2018, 09:40 PM
Aug 2018

Physical dependence will occur on most any drug, as in taking the drug itself alters brain chemicals in a way that the brain learns to compensate to deal with -- and ideally unlearns by tapering vs abrupt discontinuation. For example, benzodiazepines. GABA is a necessary inhibitory neurotransmitter, and benzo-treated patient's brains learn to compensate in necessary areas when too much GABA is bad. Abrupt discontinuation of the thing making GABA work better leaves the brain still acting like it's used to getting a GABA-enhancer, and worst case scenario is seizures they can't stop. Second-worst is manic psychosis. Both can be fatal and are easily prevented with a proper taper.

A person can become physically dependent on an opiate as a result of even a brief acute episode of use, if the dose isn't titrated by patient or provider correctly, regardless of the actual physical pain levels that would exist after a "knockout withdrawal" process (the European method, using barbiturates to induce a coma through the worst, then tapering the GABA agent). This is why orthopedic surgeons are especially cautious with painkillers, if they expect the operation to be a success. During my ankle ligament repair surgery, they created far more pain than I had from the retear of the ligament itself -- drilled a hole in my fibula. They know that they're creating pain to stop it, and concerns about appropriate tapering was why I took the Tramadol at the end vs just tossing the script. It didn't do anything for my perception of pain during PT, but I recognized it might prevent rebound perception of worse pain after slamming my brain with painkillers I'd never had before during the immediate recovery process.

Tolerance is another issue, but closely related. Everyone taking a substance that messes with brain chemicals long enough develops tolerance to its worst effects, and therefore also to its desired effects -- which can require dose escalation and it be proper, if done in a careful manner. Truthfully, one *should* start low and titrate up as base pain and tolerance require.

Therefore, every long-term opiate ingester, whether they need the drugs to keep a standard of life vs just keep them from residing in their bathroom for a week or two, is by definition both dependent and tolerant to opiates. Needing a higher dose isn't always an indication of addiction. If opiate use is titrated appropriately, dose escalation is an expected part of the process -- if none is needed they likely overshot the original necessary dose and the patient did the titration themselves by halving doses to avoid early nausea, etc.

Addiction is, as you said, when the person's use of the drug is causing more harm than it solves for them yet the psychological reinforcing effects of taking it overcome the logic circuit. Yet even addicts may need pain management outside of hospice, and denying appropriate pain relief just because they have an addiction history is inhumane. And when the harm is from, for example with MMJ patients in non-MMJ states, the illegal way they obtain a drug they actually need.... who is really at fault? The doctor who wrote them off and left them seeking fake street pills laced with IMF vs considering Suboxone?

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

The doctor could have very well determined that his patient had become addicted to opioids. Trust Buster Aug 2018 #1
Or atreides1 Aug 2018 #2
Or, taking opioids for decades will likely result in addiction. Trust Buster Aug 2018 #3
Yeah, but so what? Mosby Aug 2018 #9
At some point, the person sometimes can't tell if it's the addiction or pain causing them anguish. Kaleva Aug 2018 #10
My point exactly. Thank you. Trust Buster Aug 2018 #13
Then the doc should have referred the patient for evaluation Mariana Aug 2018 #14
And the doc might very well have refered the patient for evaluation. Kaleva Aug 2018 #15
The patient can tell if the pain meds are working Mosby Aug 2018 #17
+1 Blue_Tires Aug 2018 #45
so is the answer for that person or persons to be WhiteTara Aug 2018 #59
You must not have had friends take their own lives Ms. Toad Aug 2018 #4
+1 LuckyCharms Aug 2018 #5
And I know people who have Od'd or have/are spending years in prison. Kaleva Aug 2018 #11
The people in chronic pain, under medical care, and who are being denied relief Ms. Toad Aug 2018 #18
+1000 Cetacea Apr 2020 #79
Are You Aware Of The Strictures Involved With Getting Legal Pain Meds? ProfessorGAC Aug 2018 #21
You don't seem to know how drug addicts work. Kaleva Aug 2018 #22
Willfully Avoiding The Point ProfessorGAC Aug 2018 #28
Your wife doesn't deserve those drugs if somebody, somewhere is getting high. Coventina Aug 2018 #29
Amazing how many Puritans we have on this board. Crunchy Frog Aug 2018 #56
Opiates are pretty boring if people, pain patients or addicts, know exactly what they are getting. hunter Aug 2018 #50
exactly. When/If the day comes my doctors cut me off...... demtenjeep Aug 2018 #32
Having a daughter with a variation of the disease you have - Ms. Toad Aug 2018 #38
Thank you. That is exactly correct demtenjeep Aug 2018 #40
Easier to just cut people off and refuse to see them and not care. Eliot Rosewater Aug 2018 #53
So???? Drahthaardogs Aug 2018 #26
That's the part I'm not quite clear on either. ecstatic Aug 2018 #52
Lots of side effects, but none of them outweigh the benefit of the pain killing. Eliot Rosewater Aug 2018 #54
Any doctor prescribing opiates long-term should know they're creating dependence. moriah Aug 2018 #30
Taking opioids on a daily basis pretty much guarantees addiction Major Nikon Aug 2018 #77
We are under a lot of stress in the hospice world mucifer Aug 2018 #6
Yeah not fooled Aug 2018 #7
Of course not. Suicides can't be exploited politically the way OD deaths can. kcr Aug 2018 #8
If they get addicted they deserve to be cut off forever and live in agony. Mariana Aug 2018 #12
A person got arrested not far from where I live for selling her opioi prescription pills to addicts. Kaleva Aug 2018 #16
So a criminal lived close to you. What does that have to do with chronic pain? kcr Aug 2018 #19
You apparently don't care about the pain innocents suffer. Kaleva Aug 2018 #23
I am the child of a drug addict, and my siblings suffered because the other addict was their mom. moriah Aug 2018 #31
My youngest stepson is a recovering addict. Kaleva Aug 2018 #43
Still... you're kind of making my point. moriah Aug 2018 #44
Would he even started on the pills had they not been so easily available? Kaleva Aug 2018 #47
I don't know, truthfully. moriah Aug 2018 #49
I don't have a high opinion of those who sell or give their prescription drugs Kaleva Aug 2018 #74
.... if you're saying docs shouldn't prescribe for obvious acute (as in, not chronic) injuries... moriah Aug 2018 #75
you apparently don't care for those that deeply suffer DAILY demtenjeep Aug 2018 #34
Not if they sell to addicts Kaleva Aug 2018 #48
What? People selling them arent using them, trust me on this. Eliot Rosewater Aug 2018 #55
i don't demtenjeep Aug 2018 #63
Trust me. If one is in chronic pain they will most certainly NOT be selling their meds demtenjeep Aug 2018 #33
Facts refute your statement. Kaleva Aug 2018 #42
NO, they DONT Eliot Rosewater Aug 2018 #57
I don't give a shit REP Aug 2018 #58
i am speaking from personal experience demtenjeep Aug 2018 #62
Additional Supporting facts erhaustin Apr 2020 #78
I think a lot of people in big pain are addicted. leftyladyfrommo Aug 2018 #20
There seems to be a lot of confusion on this thread between DEPENDENCY and ADDICTION Coventina Aug 2018 #24
Thank you! runtel Aug 2018 #25
IKR? Somebody somewhere might get high, so screw anyone who needs the drugs! Coventina Aug 2018 #27
exactly. demtenjeep Aug 2018 #35
Beg to differ *slightly*. moriah Aug 2018 #37
Thank you. Corgigal Aug 2018 #39
I understand people are suffering from opiod abuse, but I cannot abide leaving people in pain aikoaiko Aug 2018 #36
This message was self-deleted by its author Ligyron Aug 2018 #41
Some of you on this thread needs to google thalamic pain shraby Aug 2018 #46
The crackdown is actually driving people to the underground market fescuerescue Aug 2018 #51
Opioids Don't Beat Other Medications For Chronic Pain janterry Aug 2018 #60
One huge problem with that? NSAIDS are FAR more dangerous than Opioids. Coventina Aug 2018 #61
I'm not an MD janterry Aug 2018 #65
opioids, when used correctly are very safe, not so NSAIDS Coventina Aug 2018 #68
my dad had terminal cancer Mosby Aug 2018 #73
Not everyone can take those other medications. Eliminating opioids removes the best option pnwmom Aug 2018 #64
That's crazy. A terminal illness is a whole different thing janterry Aug 2018 #66
She didn't have a cancer diagnosis. She was just so old that her systems were failing. pnwmom Aug 2018 #67
I'm so sorry for your loss janterry Aug 2018 #70
She was very old and she didn't want them to do anything more, except relieve the pain. pnwmom Aug 2018 #72
smoke weed, won't kill your liver like pills JuJuYoshida Aug 2018 #69
That's not an option for those of us who have government jobs. n/t Coventina Aug 2018 #71
It doesn't work for everyone. For people with metastatic cancer mucifer Aug 2018 #76
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