General Discussion

Gothmog

(179,523 posts)

137. Agreed

Sun Dec 2, 2018, 03:01 PM

Dec 2018

However I want to focus n the magical thinking in the study cited in the OP. I do not believe in magical tax cuts and I also have questions about the assumption in the study cited in the OP. I do not believe in magical thinking

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New Study Shows Medicare for All Would Save US $5.1 Trillion Over Ten Years [View all] guillaumeb Dec 2018 OP

Kick dalton99a Dec 2018 #1

Just a question...... essaynnc Dec 2018 #2

How many people made buggy whips? guillaumeb Dec 2018 #3

+1 red dog 1 Dec 2018 #36

Those jobs were not erased overnight, or even over 15 years. MFA says 8 years. ehrnst Dec 2018 #177

Many jobs were erased nearly overnight. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #182

Can you provide some citations on those claims? ehrnst Dec 2018 #184

I guess not... ehrnst Dec 2018 #185

I feel no need to write a book on this topic. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #186

Right. Citing your sources is "writing a book." ehrnst Dec 2018 #187

By that logic, European healthcare systems should employ lots of insurance company workers and Doodley Dec 2018 #202

broken window Hermit-The-Prog Dec 2018 #4

Thanks for that link red dog 1 Dec 2018 #37

welcome; health insurance is not a net benefit Hermit-The-Prog Dec 2018 #44

Most single payer plans include taking care of people currently working in the Poiuyt Dec 2018 #5

You might want to take a look at PNHP's site. area51 Dec 2018 #6

Beat me to it!! Roland99 Dec 2018 #22

They Use Some of the Same Examples I Was Thinking of Leith Dec 2018 #38

They are already being phased out. KentuckyWoman Dec 2018 #9

A great number of people would likely be absorbed in Medicare Takket Dec 2018 #15

Just an answer quakerboy Dec 2018 #28

Don't know and don't care. Politicub Dec 2018 #30

This type of nonsense is now just fodder for ignore. I am so over small minded short sighted spew tymorial Dec 2018 #105

Private insurance may still be needed. Lonestarblue Dec 2018 #31

Yup Leith Dec 2018 #39

Message auto-removed Name removed Dec 2018 #45

Germany has a system of non-profit/profit health care system... cynatnite Dec 2018 #107

Someone still needs to administer those benefits.... Heartstrings Dec 2018 #126

It should open up more jobs in actual healthcare treestar Dec 2018 #144

That is an economic consequence that has not been addressed in M4A. (tn) ehrnst Dec 2018 #178

I remember when health insurance wasn't even a thing KentuckyWoman Dec 2018 #7

There is an enormous amount of profit to be made in the industry. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #8

we pay for an industry designed to deny Hermit-The-Prog Dec 2018 #11

Exactly. The Insurance companies make their money by denying care. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #13

That used to be true but the gross margin is now capped at 20% grantcart Dec 2018 #34

So ONLY 20% is diverted. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #59

That isn't the issue of the sub thread grantcart Dec 2018 #71

Insurance companies can declare that certain things are costs. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #73

Its not 3% and its not 20% and insurance companies cannot "declare certain things are costs" grantcart Dec 2018 #111

+++ JHan Dec 2018 #125

Amazing Reply Me. Dec 2018 #127

This message was self-deleted by its author grantcart Dec 2018 #131

Thank you grantcart Dec 2018 #138

Great post Gothmog Dec 2018 #200

I've noticed along with co pays and deductibles I am being charged with "facility fees" Autumn Dec 2018 #129

And no one challenges these unexplained costs. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #130

if the insurance company is only gonna get 79% questionseverything Dec 2018 #114

You have it reversed. If they don't spend the 80% then they have to rebate the difference grantcart Dec 2018 #122

Oh, BS! DiverDave Dec 2018 #136

As reply #122 explains Senator Al Franken crafted the perfect solution grantcart Dec 2018 #142

That's simply not true. George II Dec 2018 #132

To be fair it used to be true before the ACA. grantcart Dec 2018 #143

That is no longer the case. Under the ACA the medical loss ratio is capped grantcart Dec 2018 #32

we pay for all health care for everyone + 20% + cost of industry Hermit-The-Prog Dec 2018 #42

ACA margins are NOT based on cost plus margins. grantcart Dec 2018 #52

ACA is a step in the right direction Hermit-The-Prog Dec 2018 #55

Not arguing that we shouldn't transition to single payer but the issue grantcart Dec 2018 #58

If your income is low enough there is a program to pay for that 135 Marrah_Goodman Dec 2018 #67

I don't qualify for that but do qualify for $ 1230 monthly subsidy with ACA. grantcart Dec 2018 #72

Marrah, do you have a link to more info on this. sheshe2 Dec 2018 #82

It's called "Extra Help" Marrah_Goodman Dec 2018 #83

Thank you. sheshe2 Dec 2018 #84

CEOs making 10's of thousands per day. YAY! SammyWinstonJack Dec 2018 #47

possibly worse, Dr. Denial Hermit-The-Prog Dec 2018 #48

Thank you for understanding. KentuckyWoman Dec 2018 #51

I felt that your meaning was clear. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #60

How often do those things happen? quakerboy Dec 2018 #29

And then there are people like me. Stonepounder Dec 2018 #33

I didn't mean to blame the patient... only that for profit preys on that sort of thing KentuckyWoman Dec 2018 #50

Supported Medicare-for-All - actually MediCAID-for-All - since about 1980, as right thing to do. Hoyt Dec 2018 #10

There is also much waste in the pharmaceutical industry. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #14

No question, but that is built into the 14%. The study assumes the system is transformed. Hoyt Dec 2018 #16

The military budget, or more properly the war budget, guillaumeb Dec 2018 #19

I'm for it! ananda Dec 2018 #12

We will slowly get there for this reason. shockey80 Dec 2018 #17

Unfortunately this study is an oversimplification. Many who read these studies.... George II Dec 2018 #18

Medicare advantage is already there. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #20

That is correct. Medicare Advantage is VERY affordable (my wife and I each pay $25/month), but.... George II Dec 2018 #21

Agreed that Medicare also needs to be fixed. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #23

The only fixing I see that Medicare needs is to provide full coverage, not just 80%, but... George II Dec 2018 #27

With Medicare Advantage you are somewhat limited in your choice of hostalover Dec 2018 #49

"They are much more efficient than the US Government would be" dpibel Dec 2018 #56

Example: George II Dec 2018 #70

That article doesn't mention Medicare once, and the Pentagon is rather infamous... Humanist_Activist Dec 2018 #87

The government is the government, regardless of the department or branch. George II Dec 2018 #88

So in your view, the government is incapable of running things efficiently? Humanist_Activist Dec 2018 #89

There is no "evidence as applied to Medicare" because a big part of Medicare is administered.... George II Dec 2018 #92

Ok, what about equivalent systems, such as the VA or Medicaid? Humanist_Activist Dec 2018 #94

I have further questions, is this problem unique to the United States? Humanist_Activist Dec 2018 #90

I do not think what you think I think dpibel Dec 2018 #99

It was only a matter of time Hassin Bin Sober Dec 2018 #155

The study proposes a 3.75% national sales tax as a possible way to fund the $1,000,000,000,000 lapucelle Dec 2018 #112

Sales taxes are the most regressive taxes ever conceived.... George II Dec 2018 #113

guess you missed the exemptions part questionseverything Dec 2018 #117

What I missed was the specifics of the vague plan. So, is there anything proposed on how.... George II Dec 2018 #120

That's ridiculous. The sales tax is collected (or not) by the merchants. Hassin Bin Sober Dec 2018 #148

VATs are very regressive Gothmog Dec 2018 #149

It may also help to read we were discussing a sales tax. Hassin Bin Sober Dec 2018 #152

You do know that a VAT is a sales tax Gothmog Dec 2018 #153

Bizarre. A sales tax is a sales tax and a value added tax is a value added tax. Hassin Bin Sober Dec 2018 #154

That is so cute and adorable Gothmog Dec 2018 #156

Lol. Your own link contradicts how and why you jumped in to this silly subthread asserting.... Hassin Bin Sober Dec 2018 #157

LOL-they are both taxes on consumption and both taxes are eventually paid for by the consumer Gothmog Dec 2018 #158

And the regressive nature of the tax is that it's based on consumption (however one may define that) George II Dec 2018 #161

The Fair Tax proposal attempts to lessen the regressive effect with pre-bates Gothmog Dec 2018 #162

A sales tax has been determined to be the most regressive tax possible, except for a poll tax.... George II Dec 2018 #159

Using a very regressive tax to pay for this plan is a bad idea Gothmog Dec 2018 #163

This plan has no chance of passing in the real world Gothmog Dec 2018 #166

I don't know where you are, but in the four states in which I've lived (NY, NJ, OH, CT).... George II Dec 2018 #160

We have one percentage for the state tax but there are different tax rates for local taxes Gothmog Dec 2018 #172

That is a very regressive form of taxation Gothmog Dec 2018 #116

Actually based on studies done for the ACA, it costs 13% less for the govt to do cbdo2007 Dec 2018 #167

You are using facts concerning a study that is based on very aggresive assumptions Gothmog Dec 2018 #175

That's why the elite in general don't like it sandensea Dec 2018 #24

Cui bono. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #25

+1 sandensea Dec 2018 #26

Yeah but then it wouldn't keep people trapped working for their employers linuxuser3 Dec 2018 #35

What does Medicare for All have to do with Native American Genocide or Slavery? red dog 1 Dec 2018 #40

Welcome to DU. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #61

I worked for almost 50 years, never had a problem changing jobs because I was trapped by healthcare. George II Dec 2018 #145

Single Payer Is Good For Business Progressive2020 Dec 2018 #41

Yes, it is. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #62

True Progressive2020 Dec 2018 #78

Agreed. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #79

if we all had medicare wouldn't the cost of workmans comp questionseverything Dec 2018 #119

K&R, thanks for posting red dog 1 Dec 2018 #43

While I support medicare for all there are significant errors on the percentage grantcart Dec 2018 #46

Societal savings are not tax revenues Gothmog Dec 2018 #53

Taxes will go higher, guillaumeb Dec 2018 #63

Then why has sanders failed utterly to get his magic plan adopted in Vermont? Gothmog Dec 2018 #74

Nothing is perfect. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #75

Then sanders should stop selling his book and go work to get this plan adopted in vermont Gothmog Dec 2018 #118

Guilaumeb, Sanders did not have a workable plan Hortensis Dec 2018 #176

In my view, Sanders is helping to frame the issue. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #181

I understand some of the savings will come from funeral costs of those with inadequate... George II Dec 2018 #69

All the comparisons are with countries that have a fraction of the population of the US.... George II Dec 2018 #81

That actually makes no sense, any insurance system is more cost effective... Humanist_Activist Dec 2018 #86

Yep. That's the most asinine argument against single payer that gets thrown around. Hassin Bin Sober Dec 2018 #150

I have yet to see how it is paid for. wasupaloopa Dec 2018 #54

What I would like to see is the House dems ooky Dec 2018 #57

Maybe a progressive think tank can do it. wasupaloopa Dec 2018 #65

Those who wrote the plan and are pushing it should explain how it works and is paid for.... George II Dec 2018 #85

OK, let's strengthen the ACA then... Humanist_Activist Dec 2018 #96

The biggest fault in the ACA is allowing individual states to implement it differently.... George II Dec 2018 #98

True, but your going to have to abolish Federalism or find a way to Federalize the ACA... Humanist_Activist Dec 2018 #102

i swear no one did the math on the aca before passing it questionseverything Dec 2018 #121

One of the issues is I think it still allows for age based discrimination... Humanist_Activist Dec 2018 #123

true single pyer would be better but medicare for all is a decent starting place questionseverything Dec 2018 #124

Strengthening an already existing system rather than start from scratch is common sense to me. betsuni Dec 2018 #103

Its a good, marketable term, also, the ACA, due to the structure... Humanist_Activist Dec 2018 #109

I don't disagree with strengthening the ACA as an intermediate step. ooky Dec 2018 #104

Your taxes would increase. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #64

Yes. It would cost a business $11k per employee per year. They pay that or more now. KWR65 Dec 2018 #66

And increased taxes should be less than Americans currently pay for insurance premiums. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #68

If the savings are so clear, then why have this plan not been put into effect? Gothmog Dec 2018 #76

Bribes from the Insurance industry to politicians. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #77

Ding, Ding, Ding, we have a winna!! nt Ferrets are Cool Dec 2018 #108

Unfortunately every time it gets down to specifically stating how the plan would be paid for and.... George II Dec 2018 #95

Only if the hypothetical or theoritical savings are real Gothmog Dec 2018 #115

Why do you keep using the word magical? guillaumeb Dec 2018 #128

Because I live in the real world and I also know how studies like the one cited in OP are prepared Gothmog Dec 2018 #133

I know it's two years old, but the third paragraph in your link is very interesting. George II Dec 2018 #135

Agreed Gothmog Dec 2018 #137

That statistic is false dansolo Dec 2018 #165

It is a single payer system in which each province guillaumeb Dec 2018 #168

K&R lilactime Dec 2018 #80

Yep. Thanks for posting! BeckyDem Dec 2018 #91

Thank you. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #93

In solidarity! BeckyDem Dec 2018 #97

I would recommend making this source part of a separate post. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #100

Please, feel free to use the source in any way you prefer. BeckyDem Dec 2018 #101

Hell, you can't even get them to do something about climate change... Ferrets are Cool Dec 2018 #106

Voters made a difference a few weeks ago. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #110

Voters voted to protect the ACA and the coverage of pre-existing conditions Gothmog Dec 2018 #134

They voted for an imperfect something guillaumeb Dec 2018 #139

The voters did NOT vote for sanders magical single payer plan Gothmog Dec 2018 #140

Sounds like a meme. "Magical single payer". But it ignores reality. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #141

Single payer was not on the ballot but protection of pre-existing coverage was an important issue Gothmog Dec 2018 #146

This study is really sad and shows why single payer has been adopted Gothmog Dec 2018 #147

. Achilleaze Dec 2018 #151

K&R.. disillusioned73 Dec 2018 #164

The only way forward that is not just left wing debate on sites like DU GulfCoast66 Dec 2018 #169

The ACA is, at best, a temporary fix. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #170

The French system has non profit insurance companies people can choose from GulfCoast66 Dec 2018 #171

Or (in terms Republicans can understand) the cost of 3 wars Bucky Dec 2018 #173

War is very profitable, guillaumeb Dec 2018 #183

This plan will require 60 votes in the Senate Gothmog Dec 2018 #174

And then, how does the Democratic Party protect it when not in power? ehrnst Dec 2018 #179

His isn't the only proposal for reform using public programs ehrnst Dec 2018 #180

The sanders plan relies on tax increases to pay for it Gothmog Dec 2018 #188

Which will effectively reduce insurance premiums guillaumeb Dec 2018 #189

Only if the aggressive assumptions in the study are correct Gothmog Dec 2018 #190

So only in the US, as opoosed to every other country with single payer, guillaumeb Dec 2018 #191

sanders has cited the study cited in OP to justify his magical plan and has failed to get it adopted Gothmog Dec 2018 #192

Don't forget the overall savings of funeral costs for people who have inadequate healthcare!! George II Dec 2018 #193

Nicely done. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #194

... George II Dec 2018 #195

The Medicare-for-all paradox Gothmog Dec 2018 #196

Most people might be reasonably happy, guillaumeb Dec 2018 #197

I live in the real world Gothmog Dec 2018 #198

Your observation is correct, as far as it goes. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #199

There are very valid reasons why President Obama got the ACA adopted Gothmog Dec 2018 #201

Getting to the ACA was very difficult too and also started unpopularly, and the very same complaint JCanete Dec 2018 #203

Agreed. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #204