General Discussion

Nine

(1,741 posts)

176. 1988, Female, undecided

Mon Aug 20, 2012, 01:46 PM

Aug 2012

As the Onion puts it, http://www.theonion.com/articles/not-even-julian-assange-clear-on-whats-going-on-wi,29203/

I honestly have never followed the Assange/Wikileaks issues that much so all I can really talk about are my intuitions and general feelings; I concede these aren't based much on facts.

I'm a middle-aged midwestern Dem who doesn't always feel aligned with younger, "edgier" progressives. I feel like I'm expected to have all this enthusiasm for Assange/Wikileaks just like I'm supposed to be gaga over Occupy Wall Street, but I have my doubts about both. I'm a party-line gal. I don't love the idea of lots of sensitive government information being exposed willy-nilly, and it seems like a lot of power for one person to hold. And Assange just strikes me as a bit cocky, which is not a trait I admire. You can say my opinion doesn't count for much, but there it is. Just adding my data and stats as requested.

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Gotta Admit... I'm Pretty Baffled By The Split And Depth Of Feeling Re:The Assange/WikiLeaks Story [View all] WillyT Aug 2012 OP

I have a question aboutAssange Peregrine Aug 2012 #1

IMO, Assange manipulated Bradley and proved himself untrustworthy (again) CabCurious Aug 2012 #303

1968, male, and yes I side strongly with Assange. I agree with him that the US should teddy51 Aug 2012 #2

1971, Female, Assange malokvale77 Aug 2012 #3

I just think the law should be followed treestar Aug 2012 #4

You mean like Bush, Cheney, Romney etc. are above it? Live and Learn Aug 2012 #8

No, why should they be? treestar Aug 2012 #10

Fine, we will get to Julian as soon as the rest are tried then. nt Live and Learn Aug 2012 #29

I don't think it's going to happen that way. treestar Aug 2012 #73

yes, bush & cheney will never be prosecuted. they'll die in their comfy beds attended by their HiPointDem Aug 2012 #129

and to which law, specifically, are you referrring? niyad Aug 2012 #21

x2 AnotherMcIntosh Aug 2012 #31

International law/extradition law/Swedish law treestar Aug 2012 #74

again, WHICH law? to what CRIME are you referring? niyad Aug 2012 #107

He's in clear violation of British law metalbot Aug 2012 #195

and of what crimes HAS HE BEEN CHARGED in sweden, where all of this supposedly began? niyad Aug 2012 #200

firstly he can't be charged until the second interview is done Bodhi BloodWave Aug 2012 #210

I don't care about laws that prevent transparency. nt Comrade_McKenzie Aug 2012 #52

So how are we to survive as a nation if all of our information has to be open to other countries treestar Aug 2012 #75

Just a coincidence tama Aug 2012 #236

What do you mean? treestar Aug 2012 #260

The way I see it tama Aug 2012 #264

Do you not realize that we have to have SOME national security? treestar Aug 2012 #283

Don't get me wrong tama Aug 2012 #284

Well now you've invoked the Nazis treestar Aug 2012 #292

As said tama Aug 2012 #293

Laws are sometimes wrong brush Aug 2012 #136

In your view, laws against rape and other sexual assaults are simply wrong? struggle4progress Aug 2012 #183

Huh? brush Aug 2012 #184

Assange is hiding in Quito's London embassy to escape legal process in Sweden on sex allegations struggle4progress Aug 2012 #186

Legal process brush Aug 2012 #204

Railroading? Hmmm. The Swedish complaints are over TWO years old now. struggle4progress Aug 2012 #245

Timing brush Aug 2012 #271

You believe that a man, who trades in other people's secrets, couldn't break the law himself? struggle4progress Aug 2012 #272

Get real brush Aug 2012 #285

You claim he's being railroaded, though the original arrest order was issued by a Swedish struggle4progress Aug 2012 #286

But, again, why does a foreign national like Assange have to follow US law JDPriestly Aug 2012 #140

He hasn't broken US law. jeff47 Aug 2012 #166

What happens to spies in other countries who receive stolen U.S. secrets? randome Aug 2012 #169

The real spies tama Aug 2012 #240

Good point. randome Aug 2012 #242

Also editors fall into category of "journalist" tama Aug 2012 #263

He's wanted in Sweden for arrest on a rape allegation, rape being against Swedish law struggle4progress Aug 2012 #246

+100. I agree. Skip Intro Aug 2012 #194

Political asylum is here for when the machinery of government is used unjustly. backscatter712 Aug 2012 #296

And you have proof Sweden is abusing justice? Seems that Assange is... CabCurious Aug 2012 #305

Sweden is just not known to have a legal system that is that unfair treestar Aug 2012 #315

Tell that to the two guys that Sweden helped the CIA rendition to Egypt for torture. backscatter712 Aug 2012 #316

Was that during the post 911 insanity? treestar Aug 2012 #320

He has no right to disregard Swedish charges and flee forever CabCurious Aug 2012 #304

1976, Female, Sides with Assange Live and Learn Aug 2012 #5

You are not the only one tama Aug 2012 #241

And once he's in Sweden and the charges come... we'll see how you feel CabCurious Aug 2012 #306

1993, female, sides with Assange laundry_queen Aug 2012 #6

Female and 30 years older sides with Assange riverbendviewgal Aug 2012 #12

1989, male, sides with Assange Joe Shlabotnik Aug 2012 #70

1986, Male, sides with rape victims...nt SidDithers Aug 2012 #7

I'm sorry but wasn't the accusation refusal to use a condom? Live and Learn Aug 2012 #13

No, the accusation is RAPE. Spider Jerusalem Aug 2012 #34

This OP is not about the sex charges, rape or otherwise. Live and Learn Aug 2012 #58

Your post, to which I was responding, was about the charges Spider Jerusalem Aug 2012 #59

which is not what the women are saying, is it? niyad Aug 2012 #108

It is in fact what at least one of them has said. Spider Jerusalem Aug 2012 #110

No. Sex after consentual sex isn't rape. Both women had invited him into their beds. leveymg Aug 2012 #113

You are very much mistaken. Spider Jerusalem Aug 2012 #120

It's not rape. She consented on the same occasion to have sex with him. The sex was consensual leveymg Aug 2012 #145

Post removed Post removed Aug 2012 #146

You don't know what you pretend to know. It was consensual sex on the same occasion. leveymg Aug 2012 #147

... Spider Jerusalem Aug 2012 #148

Falling asleep does not constitute "withdrawal of consent". Complete Bullshit. leveymg Aug 2012 #150

I'm quite aware, thanks Spider Jerusalem Aug 2012 #154

Really? metalbot Aug 2012 #197

are you arguing that Bodhi BloodWave Aug 2012 #211

I'm saying that it isn't rape if the sex was consensual. leveymg Aug 2012 #214

can it be said to be the same occation tho Bodhi BloodWave Aug 2012 #215

Yes, going to bed and having consensual intercourse clearly signals consent. leveymg Aug 2012 #219

he had consent for sex with condom Bodhi BloodWave Aug 2012 #220

Until the definition of rape is changed, it isn't rape. It isn't ethical, but it isn't rape. eom leveymg Aug 2012 #222

That is absolutely rape gollygee Aug 2012 #224

There may be a civil breech of promise case here. Doesn't meet the standard for criminal rape. leveymg Aug 2012 #225

What is a redefinition of rape is your idea gollygee Aug 2012 #228

You have to look at all sides. The law protects both parties. leveymg Aug 2012 #235

Again, this is frightening gollygee Aug 2012 #253

You are not a jury so you do not decide. randome Aug 2012 #226

actually initiating sex with a sleeping person Bodhi BloodWave Aug 2012 #229

unless you can show reasonable expectation of consent reorg Aug 2012 #232

where do you see a reasonable expectation of consent for unprotected sex Bodhi BloodWave Aug 2012 #233

there is no such legal category as "unprotected sex" reorg Aug 2012 #238

As I said, there may be a civil case for breach of promise, but it isn't criminal leveymg Aug 2012 #239

please provide transcripts reorg Aug 2012 #248

It's not rape if consent was given on the same occasion. leveymg Aug 2012 #237

this is something i doubt we will ever agree on Bodhi BloodWave Aug 2012 #244

I think our disagreement is limited to legal definitions. leveymg Aug 2012 #255

as spider jerusalem posted earlier in this thread Bodhi BloodWave Aug 2012 #258

Please see my response to SJ. eom leveymg Aug 2012 #268

She tweeted that she was half-sleep tama Aug 2012 #247

actually reorg Aug 2012 #251

Does it matter to you that Assange denies these allegations? sabrina 1 Aug 2012 #312

I don't know what evidence exists Bodhi BloodWave Aug 2012 #314

Well, you answered my question. You are not familiar with the case at all. sabrina 1 Aug 2012 #318

Assange's own lawyer tho Bodhi BloodWave Aug 2012 #319

No it does not gollygee Aug 2012 #223

Its a somewhat scary/frightening mindset isn't it? n/t Bodhi BloodWave Aug 2012 #250

Are you kidding me? LadyHawkAZ Aug 2012 #290

Woah. gollygee Aug 2012 #174

And she didn't have complaints the next day or after tama Aug 2012 #243

No. The issue is that she did not give consent for him to penetrate pnwmom Aug 2012 #37

Still seems to be a Swedish issue and a Swedish law. Live and Learn Aug 2012 #61

Not a Swedish issue and Swedish law. Spider Jerusalem Aug 2012 #64

Thanks for the recitation of US law. Lets talk about Swedish law: leveymg Aug 2012 #149

Answered in response to another post. Spider Jerusalem Aug 2012 #151

Your interpretation is nonsense. Falling asleep does not constitute "withdrawal of consent" leveymg Aug 2012 #152

The US law I'm pointing to actually applies if consent has been given Spider Jerusalem Aug 2012 #155

By the plain-language, that only applies in CA if prior consent has not been given. leveymg Aug 2012 #157

... Spider Jerusalem Aug 2012 #161

Of course there's an allegation. eom leveymg Aug 2012 #162

Isn't that statute exactly a case where consent has been given? metalbot Aug 2012 #198

That part of the statute applies if consent was not given, someone falls asleep, and is assaulted. leveymg Aug 2012 #216

AA had given her flat for Assange to use tama Aug 2012 #249

True. And the Stockholm Wikileaks coordinator agrees with you. pnwmom Aug 2012 #83

She consented to sleep with him, and to have him penetrate her. That isn't rape. leveymg Aug 2012 #116

Ms. W. did NOT consent to penetration without a condom. pnwmom Aug 2012 #123

Even if true, how in the world would you prove these facts? JDPriestly Aug 2012 #141

That's true. I don't know what other evidence they have, pnwmom Aug 2012 #165

Actually it would LadyHawkAZ Aug 2012 #294

That is not clearly "rape." leveymg Aug 2012 #144

Wrong. She did NOT consent to having unprotected sexual intercourse, pnwmom Aug 2012 #164

Seriously? metalbot Aug 2012 #199

so what if its not against the law here, or is is suddenly only US law counts worldwide. loli phabay Aug 2012 #81

Actually, penetrating a woman while she's asleep is rape in the US too. n/t tammywammy Aug 2012 #88

yeah i know it is, but i was making the point that some people seem to think that swedish law dosent loli phabay Aug 2012 #93

After they have had consensual sex? leveymg Aug 2012 #115

Yes, a woman that is asleep or unconscious cannot consent to sex tammywammy Aug 2012 #117

She already had consensual sex with him in the same bed that evening. That is NOT rape. leveymg Aug 2012 #118

How is penetrating a woman while she's asleep NOT rape? tammywammy Aug 2012 #119

The answer is simple. ronnie624 Aug 2012 #138

yet she said it was Bodhi BloodWave Aug 2012 #167

... The defence argues that the offences in the EAW are not extradition offences struggle4progress Aug 2012 #178

Do you honestly believe that the actions of Sweden, Britain and Ecuador are solely morningfog Aug 2012 #14

Sweden is a functioning democracy, where the courts are shielded from political pressure, and struggle4progress Aug 2012 #252

I side with rape victims as well, but that has NOTHING to do with this case niyad Aug 2012 #15

The Stockholm Wikileaks coordinator, a "close colleague" of Assange's, pnwmom Aug 2012 #39

The whole thing is so paranoid treestar Aug 2012 #79

It appears to be working for Assange, anyway. n/t pnwmom Aug 2012 #82

What rape victims? MNBrewer Aug 2012 #22

this victim? Bodhi BloodWave Aug 2012 #38

You realize this has nothing to do with rape, right? GliderGuider Aug 2012 #287

I think you completely misunderstand and mischaracterise the issue Spider Jerusalem Aug 2012 #9

If you "find the accuser's stories to be credible and believable," do you have a link to first-hand AnotherMcIntosh Aug 2012 #36

I've read the police interviews. Spider Jerusalem Aug 2012 #41

Thank you for the information, but did you notice that the link does not lead to interviews in nine AnotherMcIntosh Aug 2012 #60

Comes to the same thing. Spider Jerusalem Aug 2012 #63

Your claim, "Whether it's a verbatim transcript or a summary is irrelevant" does not determine AnotherMcIntosh Aug 2012 #65

The "protocol" is a précis of the interview, there are extant transcripts and/or recordings. Spider Jerusalem Aug 2012 #68

Your belief is not controlling. A précis of an interview /= a transcript of an interview. AnotherMcIntosh Aug 2012 #84

You appear to be going to absurdist lengths to deny the apparent evidence behind the Swedish warrant Spider Jerusalem Aug 2012 #91

Not at all. If you've been paying attention. AnotherMcIntosh Aug 2012 #97

I trust that the Swedish police and prosecuting authority aren't going to be just making things up frylock Aug 2012 #172

I don't tama Aug 2012 #259

You shouldn't tama Aug 2012 #256

would my post 38 in this thread qualify? Bodhi BloodWave Aug 2012 #43

#38 does not provide a link to first-hand account where stories from the "accuser" (or accusers) can AnotherMcIntosh Aug 2012 #66

Here's the link to their only interview tammywammy Aug 2012 #69

A tabloid report of an interview? No thank you. AnotherMcIntosh Aug 2012 #85

That "tabloid" hired Assange to be one of their columnists before these incidents happened. MADem Aug 2012 #128

If true, so what? And the obvious garish layout indicates that it is a tabloid as much as AnotherMcIntosh Aug 2012 #177

It's not a case of "if true" -- it IS true. MADem Aug 2012 #188

It is a tabloid. AnotherMcIntosh Aug 2012 #190

If it's a tabloid, it is a left wing tabloid that has been publishing for over a century. MADem Aug 2012 #191

It is a tabloid. AnotherMcIntosh Aug 2012 #192

Whatever. It's a tabloid that hired Assange. MADem Aug 2012 #202

the link to the swedish news article would be Bodhi BloodWave Aug 2012 #103

hahahaHA! fascisthunter Aug 2012 #310

As I pointed out a few days ago... randome Aug 2012 #313

1975, male, I stand with Assange. nt hifiguy Aug 2012 #11

1983, Male, Assange MNBrewer Aug 2012 #16

1987, female, torn gollygee Aug 2012 #17

Roman Polanski. randome Aug 2012 #25

Yeah, that's what's typical. gollygee Aug 2012 #26

Giles Corey AnotherMcIntosh Aug 2012 #217

1978, Male, stands with Assange Canuckistanian Aug 2012 #18

1968, Male, Sides With Assange Jumping John Aug 2012 #19

1972, Female, sides with Assange redqueen Aug 2012 #20

Good of you to put that down. nt msanthrope Aug 2012 #208

How so? redqueen Aug 2012 #209

Have you researched this? randome Aug 2012 #221

Polanski? LadyHawkAZ Aug 2012 #282

1975, Female, Sides strongly with Assange and Wikileaks nt avebury Aug 2012 #23

There is enough of a kerfuffle to this sordid subject that your poll would be meaningless. randome Aug 2012 #24

Agree - there is not a binary picture here jberryhill Aug 2012 #35

+1 Assange is no Dreyfus, but the pressure from the US .gov is blatantly obvious. friendly_iconoclast Aug 2012 #55

since i'm curious Bodhi BloodWave Aug 2012 #212

You basically hit all of the issues, but if you started an OP... joshcryer Aug 2012 #80

And we would all -pro and con- be trolls and enemies of democracy. randome Aug 2012 #89

Freedom of press in Ecuador tama Aug 2012 #261

1981, Male, Hope Assange rots with Manning... Ben_Caxton Aug 2012 #27

Welcome to DU! Fumesucker Aug 2012 #48

You, Sir, Are No Ben Caxton LadyHawkAZ Aug 2012 #51

Probably not... Ben_Caxton Aug 2012 #71

LOL! I grok. LadyHawkAZ Aug 2012 #90

Welcome to DU! randome Aug 2012 #92

1989, female, side with Assange n/t TDale313 Aug 2012 #28

People are putting the date they graduated high school here, right? Not year born? gollygee Aug 2012 #30

Problem is I don't really side with either. Cleita Aug 2012 #32

HS graduation date is not a reliable indicator jberryhill Aug 2012 #33

+1. n/t pnwmom Aug 2012 #42

There are good explanations tama Aug 2012 #265

"basic editorial work" jberryhill Aug 2012 #269

That's a fully documented Wikileaks editorial tama Aug 2012 #273

A fully documented Wikileaks editorial? jberryhill Aug 2012 #275

All public info tama Aug 2012 #279

The point is... jberryhill Aug 2012 #280

1971, Female, Assange MgtPA Aug 2012 #40

1986 female, I support the ideas of JA, but I think the Swedish case should be tried. Care Acutely Aug 2012 #44

Irrelevent, irrelevent, not that simple. NashvilleLefty Aug 2012 #45

Can You Please Add Some More info In Your Profile? HangOnKids Aug 2012 #121

Why? nt NashvilleLefty Aug 2012 #122

1966, Female, Assange cr8tvlde Aug 2012 #46

1972, Male,Assange Spirochete Aug 2012 #47

2006, Male, Sides With Assange nt Comrade_McKenzie Aug 2012 #49

Really? You're 6? I'm very impressed and I like your way of thinking. lob1 Aug 2012 #134

I thought it was date we graduated high school gollygee Aug 2012 #179

After rereading the post, you're absolutely right and I was wrong. lob1 Aug 2012 #185

1989, Female, Assange LadyHawkAZ Aug 2012 #50

Willy T! Old enough to be your Mom, and side with both for various reasons, but more with Assange. freshwest Aug 2012 #53

Thanks for the time you took to post this.... KoKo Aug 2012 #109

1957 the year they found out about smoking and orpupilofnature57 Aug 2012 #54

1976, female, don't care about JA, the governments, phylny Aug 2012 #56

1977, female, taking no side at this point. LWolf Aug 2012 #57

Male, 1977, Government of Sweden brooklynite Aug 2012 #62

1968, Female, Assange antiquie Aug 2012 #67

1987, Male, Sides with Assange, and openness, and freedom, and ideals DisgustipatedinCA Aug 2012 #72

1980, male, government hfojvt Aug 2012 #76

Not seeing much Romney/Ryan love here.. Fumesucker Aug 2012 #104

you haven't seen a split on this? Tunkamerica Aug 2012 #203

I have not been reading the Assange threads hfojvt Aug 2012 #205

I guess the vocal minority is vocal Tunkamerica Aug 2012 #299

never (would have been '72), male, absolutely with Assange.... mike_c Aug 2012 #77

1980, female, sides with Assange and WikiLeaks. nt nc4bo Aug 2012 #78

1961, male, sides with Assange, Manning, and the right of the people to know about their government. Tierra_y_Libertad Aug 2012 #86

1966, Male, sides with Assange. nt Bonobo Aug 2012 #87

1969, female. I stand with Assange against a government witch hunt. Autumn Aug 2012 #94

1975 Female Sides ith Assange n/t KegCreekDem Aug 2012 #95

1982 female sides w/Assange n/t choie Aug 2012 #96

69, Assange. Warren Stupidity Aug 2012 #98

50s male - sides w/ Assange. Nt xchrom Aug 2012 #99

1980, female, Assange riderinthestorm Aug 2012 #100

1984 Assange and Manning are heroes mattvermont Aug 2012 #101

Ask Hillary what affect Assange has had. Loudly Aug 2012 #102

More difficult tama Aug 2012 #266

1983, Male, sides strongly with Julian Assange and Manning. Denninmi Aug 2012 #105

1994, female, side with Assange to a certain extent. Jennicut Aug 2012 #106

It's the same old right - left issue. Conservatives support the wealthy, and their authority, Zorra Aug 2012 #111

so where on the scale do i fit? Bodhi BloodWave Aug 2012 #213

Wherever you are I'm right there with you. great white snark Aug 2012 #254

Progressives generally base their POV on facts, reason, logic and evidence. Zorra Aug 2012 #300

i have not seen much facts, reason, logic and evidence that he is being framed tho Bodhi BloodWave Aug 2012 #307

Really? Try this: Zorra Aug 2012 #308

an interesting report i will admit, tho i will take most the information with a grain of salt Bodhi BloodWave Aug 2012 #309

1973, Female, Sides with Assange n/t Le Taz Hot Aug 2012 #112

1964, F, Assange. nt tsuki Aug 2012 #114

'58, male, Assange pscot Aug 2012 #124

1970, Female, sides with Assange Hatchling Aug 2012 #125

I'm ignoring it bluestateguy Aug 2012 #126

This is a problem at home unc70 Aug 2012 #132

1952 Male intaglio Aug 2012 #127

Graduated in '74 & strongly support Assange. Vidar Aug 2012 #130

Prefer to remain uncategorized, but I strongly side with Assange. snot Aug 2012 #131

1966, male, Assange unc70 Aug 2012 #133

1972, Female, Sides With Whistleblowers . Why Syzygy Aug 2012 #135

1977, Male, Sides emphatically with Assange and spits on the UK government - fucking coalition_unwilling Aug 2012 #137

1983, Female, neither Kalidurga Aug 2012 #139

how would you know how intent the women are? TorchTheWitch Aug 2012 #193

There are good reasons to suspect tama Aug 2012 #267

1960, Female, Strong supporter of First Amendment Rights JDPriestly Aug 2012 #142

74, M, with Assange n/t calikid Aug 2012 #143

early 1990s and split BlueNinja Aug 2012 #153

Side with wikileaks NCTraveler Aug 2012 #156

The "Double Top Secret Everything" Is Iggy Aug 2012 #158

Also... Iggy Aug 2012 #159

Hey, we don't got no democracy, but we do have a truedelphi Aug 2012 #201

LOL... Iggy Aug 2012 #207

Yep, Her 16 million dollar mansion was described by SF Chronicle as truedelphi Aug 2012 #281

Well, her and Madeline Albright Iggy Aug 2012 #291

1967, Male, Side with Assange GliderGuider Aug 2012 #160

Male, 1971, Side with Asange 99Forever Aug 2012 #163

Could you ask if we like to kill puppies and kittens? It might be a little less biased. jeff47 Aug 2012 #168

I agree. AtomicKitten Aug 2012 #187

... randome Aug 2012 #189

1973, female, side with assange shanti Aug 2012 #170

1980/ male / Assange Go Vols Aug 2012 #171

1983, male, NON-AUTHORITARIAN, sides with assange frylock Aug 2012 #173

Well said. woo me with science Aug 2012 #270

I think most people accused of siding against Assange gollygee Aug 2012 #175

1988, Female, undecided Nine Aug 2012 #176

Obviously the Onion is in on the conspiracy then! randome Aug 2012 #180

This conspiracy has a lot of layers. Nine Aug 2012 #181

I hate polls, age and gender discrimination and the government propagandists just1voice Aug 2012 #182

1971, female, side with Assange. Nt roody Aug 2012 #196

I don't have all the facts, but the whole manhunt stinks to high heaven. Warren DeMontague Aug 2012 #206

To answer your comment about the Pope, truedelphi Aug 2012 #297

Yeah, it was more a rhetorical question, but yeah. Warren DeMontague Aug 2012 #298

1975, Male, Sides with Assange Octafish Aug 2012 #218

1960 Male sides with Assange. zeemike Aug 2012 #227

1987, male, both aikoaiko Aug 2012 #230

1983, Male, Sides With Assange qb Aug 2012 #231

There is a poll and a gap tama Aug 2012 #234

'56, female, Assange fadedrose Aug 2012 #257

Post removed Post removed Aug 2012 #262

1950, Male, Assange Time for change Aug 2012 #274

1983, Female, sides with Assange janlyn Aug 2012 #276

1978, Male, Sides With Assange FiveGoodMen Aug 2012 #277

1974, female, would find for Assange 1monster Aug 2012 #278

This has nothing to do with rape or diplomatic cables. GliderGuider Aug 2012 #288

1988, male, Assange flobee1 Aug 2012 #289

1992, Male, Sides with Assange. n/t backscatter712 Aug 2012 #295

1979, female, sides with Assange (nt) Autumn Colors Aug 2012 #301

Cannot. Will NOT support running from sexual misconduct charges CabCurious Aug 2012 #302

1974 Male, side with Assange................But Pharaoh Aug 2012 #311

2004, Male, sides with Assange. Odin2005 Aug 2012 #317

Dear WillyT, antiquie Aug 2012 #321