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Mosby

(16,299 posts)
97. the fact that the likud and a few others engaged in terrorism...
Tue Feb 12, 2019, 05:55 PM
Feb 2019

Doesn't change anything I have previously stated. The early Zionists were dealing with folks who wanted to commit genocide and finish the job Hiter started and an occupying force who didn't care either way*.

Your engaging in the logical fallacy called "whataboutism".

Your right I don't know much about you cold war spook, why don't you share with us what exactly your activities were on behalf of the United States of America.

* Martha Gellhorn, Life Magazine 1961:

The unique misfortune of the Palestinian refugees is that they are a weapon in what seems to be a permanent war. Alarming signs, from Egypt, warn us that the Palestinian refugees may develop into more than a justification for cold war against Israel. We ignored Mein Kampf in its day, as the ravings of a lunatic, written for limited home consumption. We ought to have learned never to ignore dictators or their books. Egypt's Liberation, by Gamal Abdel Nasser, deserves careful notice. It is short, low-keyed, and tells us once again that a nation has been ordained by fate to lead--this time, to lead the Arab nations, all Africa, all Islam. The Palestinian refugees are not mentioned, and today, in the Middle East, you get a repeated sinking sensation about the Palestinian refugees: they are only a beginning, not an end. Their function is to hang around and be constantly useful as a goad. The ultimate aim is not such humane small potatoes as repatriating refugees.

.....

At this point, I decided to make one long, determined stand to see whether there was any meeting ground of minds on a basis of mutually accepted facts and reasoning.

"Please bear with me and help me," said I. "I am a simple American, and I am trying to understand how the Arab mind works, and I am finding it very difficult. I want to put some things in order; if I have everything wrong, you will correct me. In 1947, the United Nations recommended the Partition of Palestine. I have seen the Partition map and studied it. I cannot tell, but it does not look to me as if the Arabs were being cheated of their share of good land. The idea was that this division would work, if both Jews and Arabs accepted it and lived under an Economic Union. And, of course, the Arab countries around the borders would have to be peaceful and cooperative or else nothing would work at all. The Jews accepted this Partition plan; I suppose because they felt they had to. They were outnumbered about two to one inside the country, and there were the neighboring Arab states with five regular armies and forty million or more citizens, not feeling friendly. Are we agreed so far?"

"It is right."

"The Arab governments and the Palestinian Arabs rejected Partition absolutely. You wanted the whole country. There is no secret about this. The statements of the Arab representatives, in the UN are on record. The Arab governments never hid the fact that they started the war against Israel. But you, the Palestinian Arabs, agreed to this, you wanted it. And you thought, it seems to me very reasonably, that you would win and win quickly. It hardly seemed a gamble; it seemed a sure bet. You took the gamble and you lost. I can understand why you have all been searching for explanations of that defeat ever since, because it does seem incredible. I don't happen to accept your explanations, but that is beside the point. The point is that you lost."

"Yes." It was too astonishing; at long last, East and West were in accord on the meaning of words.

"Now you say that you want to return to the past; you want Partition. So, in fact you say, let us forget that war we started, and the defeat, and, after all, we think Partition is a good, sensible idea. Please answer me this, which is what I must, know. If the position were reversed, if the Jews had started the war and lost it, if you had won the war, would you now accept Partition? Would you give up part of the country and allow the 650,000 Jewish residents of Palestine -who had fled from the war--to come back?"

"Certainly not," he said, without an instant's hesitation. "But there would have been no Jewish refugees. They had no place to go. They would all be dead or in the sea."

He had given me the missing clue.

Read the whole thing, this was written before people knew about talking points.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1961/10/the-arabs-of-palestine/304203/

IBTL. Dennis Donovan Feb 2019 #1
Agreed Sherman A1 Feb 2019 #2
Agreed Pacifist Patriot Feb 2019 #3
Well stated SallyHemmings Feb 2019 #4
My thoughts exactly. Charade walkingman Feb 2019 #5
You're right, criticism of Israel is not anti-Semitic, BUT fountainofyouth Feb 2019 #6
I agree! Soxfan58 Feb 2019 #13
Well then, AIPAC should apologize too DirtEdonE Feb 2019 #21
AIPAC isn't a person. But Netanyahu is. nt Honeycombe8 Feb 2019 #45
AIPAC is made up of of people DirtEdonE Feb 2019 #47
Another Israel is Possible: AIPAC Money Should Go to Solving It McKim Feb 2019 #56
AIPAC does not want that Israel. SQUEE Feb 2019 #112
I have not read the tweet(s), so I don't have context here. LakeSuperiorView Feb 2019 #22
But, her criticism of AIPAC is accurate. HootieMcBoob Feb 2019 #27
anti-Semitic tropes??? Trumpocalypse Feb 2019 #62
If the only way you can criticize is by using anti-Semitic tropes, fountainofyouth Feb 2019 #105
And calling anything a trope Trumpocalypse Feb 2019 #107
Claiming lobbyist groups putting money into congresses pockets is now anti Semitic tropes lancelyons Feb 2019 #103
AIPAC is not a Political Action Committee fountainofyouth Feb 2019 #104
Since nobody said it was leftynyc Feb 2019 #7
many people do conflate Israel and Judaism. cab67 Feb 2019 #8
It obviously depends on the criticism leftynyc Feb 2019 #10
I criticized the policy of establishing settlements in the West Bank. cab67 Feb 2019 #17
My friends there HATE that law leftynyc Feb 2019 #30
something occurs to me. cab67 Feb 2019 #57
If you trashed Bibi and the entire reason Israel is in place after 1948 that is not antisemitism. lancelyons Feb 2019 #34
Saying Israel has no right to exist leftynyc Feb 2019 #54
I can certainly talk about what Israel has done bad without being anti semitic. lancelyons Feb 2019 #63
You just changed the subject leftynyc Feb 2019 #64
I don't believe that ANY country has a "right to exist", including my own. Crunchy Frog Feb 2019 #111
Agreed. cab67 Feb 2019 #58
But criticism of lobbyists influencing Republican politicians is IronLionZion Feb 2019 #9
The second problem with Rep. Omar's tweet was fountainofyouth Feb 2019 #11
the apology itself was half-hearted; dragging the NRA into the apology? oldsoftie Feb 2019 #26
Christian lobbyists influencing Christian Republicans is anti-Semitic IronLionZion Feb 2019 #40
well said handmade34 Feb 2019 #12
Do you have a link? For whatever reason, the text is showing as characters rather than letters. N/T lapucelle Feb 2019 #28
.... handmade34 Feb 2019 #36
I found it and was able to read the entire piece for additional context. Thanks. N/T lapucelle Feb 2019 #42
For some additional context, here's what Leonhardt writes next: lapucelle Feb 2019 #33
The problem was not criticism of Israel Nonhlanhla Feb 2019 #14
She spoke specifically about a political action committee, not a religion or ethnicity Dennis Donovan Feb 2019 #19
No, it's not that simple Nonhlanhla Feb 2019 #31
Yes they are because they Lobby for pro Israel policy. Hard not to have associations there. lancelyons Feb 2019 #35
AIPAC routinely condemns people wellst0nev0ter Feb 2019 #67
And yet the association is there Nonhlanhla Feb 2019 #80
So when and how wellst0nev0ter Feb 2019 #90
You don't suggest that "it's all about the Benjamins." Nonhlanhla Feb 2019 #93
So here is the tweet she is responding to: wellst0nev0ter Feb 2019 #96
Who are you to suggest that I'm taking things "at face value" and have not dug deeply enough? Nonhlanhla Feb 2019 #106
Her tweet is nothing noteworthy wellst0nev0ter Feb 2019 #108
And I'm sorry that you cannot see the problem Nonhlanhla Feb 2019 #109
Criticizing lobbyist money wellst0nev0ter Feb 2019 #110
Not initially. That was her second tweet. George II Feb 2019 #38
? Dennis Donovan Feb 2019 #39
The tweets in question were posted all over DU yesterday. George II Feb 2019 #43
Thanks! Dennis Donovan Feb 2019 #44
THIS. Israel's government is controlled by strong Hortensis Feb 2019 #23
Well, Speaker Pelosi customerserviceguy Feb 2019 #15
Excellent point, we had no problem calling arthritisR_US Feb 2019 #16
Remember, Republicans want to divide us over Israel and Judaism. EndGOPPropaganda Feb 2019 #18
Yup ouija Feb 2019 #20
The GOP strategy, from Bari Weiss to McCarthy, is to get us to fight EndGOPPropaganda Feb 2019 #24
And as usual Democrats took the bait PatSeg Feb 2019 #37
And it is important that people grasp that with intellectual clarity pdsimdars Feb 2019 #25
As a congresswoman, Omar has no excuse for her shocking ignorance. Hortensis Feb 2019 #29
Point to where Omar specifically named Jews wellst0nev0ter Feb 2019 #68
Sophistry a bit? Point to where "Israel" and references to venality Hortensis Feb 2019 #70
You can't point to where Omar specifically referenced Jews wellst0nev0ter Feb 2019 #72
Then it's a bad look for our Democratic Party leadership, Hortensis Feb 2019 #73
Ad populum arguments are rhetorical fallacies wellst0nev0ter Feb 2019 #74
If you'd like to wait for the National Council of Churches to Hortensis Feb 2019 #75
If you'd like to wait for the National Council of Churches to Hortensis Feb 2019 #77
Exactly. Im shocked how we treat criticism of them as anti semitic. lancelyons Feb 2019 #32
It is possible to criticize Israel without invoking antediluvian anti-semitic tropes, yes? DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 #41
It depends on where you put the goalposts n/t wellst0nev0ter Feb 2019 #69
And how often you keep moving them... LanternWaste Feb 2019 #76
Not when any criticism is simply labeled as anti-Semitic, no (nt) Recursion Feb 2019 #71
That seems like a straw man DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 #89
They don't say "all", they simply say it individually about every single example Recursion Feb 2019 #98
AIPAC's mission is to attribute all criticism of Israel to anti-semitism? DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 #100
Like many countries including Russia & the US yaesu Feb 2019 #46
Similarly, if you disagree with Fat Donnie's policies, it does not make you a Trump-hater, LastLiberal in PalmSprings Feb 2019 #48
True. But at the same time, the criticism must use a scalpel, not a kitchen knife. Honeycombe8 Feb 2019 #49
It's the policies, not the people patphil Feb 2019 #50
In a nutshell The Blue Flower Feb 2019 #51
Agreed bitterross Feb 2019 #52
Israel and the Israeli government are not one and the same beastie boy Feb 2019 #53
I agree. Being anti-Israeli policies, and being anti-Semitic PatrickforO Feb 2019 #55
How Much Anti Semitism Does Having Snipers Shoot Protesting Children RAAD2 Feb 2019 #59
But the US Government generally backs the Israeli Government guillaumeb Feb 2019 #60
Message auto-removed Name removed Feb 2019 #61
Because that isn't in the news? HopeAgain Feb 2019 #78
While true, the situation is more complicated than that. Caliman73 Feb 2019 #65
"Also, ALL countries have questionable policies, not just Israel." FiveGoodMen Feb 2019 #82
No. Not all, just the ones that give us things we really want. Caliman73 Feb 2019 #95
Europeans came to the "New World" and took the land from the indigenous people. Cold War Spook Feb 2019 #66
where are the phonecians? Mosby Feb 2019 #79
Israel is the result of European anti-Semitism BeyondGeography Feb 2019 #81
not even close to the truth Mosby Feb 2019 #84
Lol, ok BeyondGeography Feb 2019 #87
not a fan of history? Mosby Feb 2019 #91
Arab conquest of the Levant Mosby Feb 2019 #92
The Jewish people are not indigenous to what is now Israel. Cold War Spook Feb 2019 #85
science proves you wrong Mosby Feb 2019 #88
You don't know me or anything about me. Cold War Spook Feb 2019 #94
the fact that the likud and a few others engaged in terrorism... Mosby Feb 2019 #97
Here is a few things you don't know about me. Cold War Spook Feb 2019 #99
What is so hard to understand? RelativelyJones Feb 2019 #83
I look at the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as the longest running civil war in history. Xolodno Feb 2019 #86
From J Street Gothmog Feb 2019 #101
Agreed. This carp we are today is I sanity lancelyons Feb 2019 #102
Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Israel is not a race or a...»Reply #97