General Discussion

DemocratSinceBirth

(101,612 posts)

80. And before:

Mon Mar 11, 2019, 12:29 PM

Mar 2019

And before somebody brings up the Nordic Model the nations that practice that form of economics are capitalist economies with strong unions and a robust welfare state.

I read Politics and Markets by Charles Lindblom for a graduate political science course back in 1983. Lindblom was very critical of the undue influence big business had on politics. The whole structure is set up to support capitalism. Lindblom was the president of the American Political Science Association so his book was a big deal. I believe the American Enterprise Institute wrote a critique of it of which the thesis was that big business was just one of many interest groups without outsized power. I wrote a paper lambasting that theory.

That being said his book reveals there has never been a socialist economy alongside a democratic political system. If there is a nation that has a socialist economy and a democratic political system I'm unaware of it.

Edit history

Please sign in to view edit histories.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

122 replies

= new reply since forum marked as read

Highlight:

Capitalism is not sustainable over the long term. [View all] Yavin4 Mar 2019 OP

It's been around for 500 years so far. PoindexterOglethorpe Mar 2019 #1

So, 500 years in human history is not that long. Yavin4 Mar 2019 #3

It is a long time in the lifetime of humans. PoindexterOglethorpe Mar 2019 #6

Modern humans have been around for 200,00 years. Yavin4 Mar 2019 #10

But we don't think in terms of thousands or hundreds of thousands of years. PoindexterOglethorpe Mar 2019 #16

we haven't had civilization for 200K years qazplm135 Mar 2019 #102

Try 5,000... brooklynite Mar 2019 #28

And how many market failures have we seen? sfwriter Mar 2019 #36

Capitalism isn't just the stock market. PoindexterOglethorpe Mar 2019 #72

No it hasn't, Capitalism is a product of the Industrial revolution, so maybe 200 years so far... Humanist_Activist Mar 2019 #58

I think most economic historians Codeine Mar 2019 #69

And some are willing to say that there are PoindexterOglethorpe Mar 2019 #71

Where is the line between Mercantilism and Capitalism? Humanist_Activist Mar 2019 #75

That's a fair enough question. Codeine Mar 2019 #93

True, though Mercantilism I would say is a type of Proto-Capitalism... Humanist_Activist Mar 2019 #95

I was trying to be generous, by the way, after all, if Capitalism does date back that far.... Humanist_Activist Mar 2019 #81

I would entirely lay most of that Codeine Mar 2019 #94

Yeah, true, it does seem like Capitalism, at the very least, requires the existence of a large... Humanist_Activist Mar 2019 #97

Slavery and genocides existed long before capitalism (n/t) thesquanderer Mar 2019 #108

True but I was rltalking about recent chattle slavery and European imperial genocides. Nt Humanist_Activist Mar 2019 #121

Sort of. But it hasn't been the world's dominant economic system for that long. DanTex Mar 2019 #112

it has lasted longer than other systems JI7 Mar 2019 #2

Not as long as hunter/gatherer societies of early man. n/t Yavin4 Mar 2019 #4

im referring to economic systems based on how we live now JI7 Mar 2019 #7

Not really, its just the most recent in a long line of differing systems that humans have used... Humanist_Activist Mar 2019 #59

Earlier systems lasted a long time. Codeine Mar 2019 #70

I'm pretty sure that feudalism lasted longer. DanTex Mar 2019 #113

What do you propose to replace it with? DemocratSinceBirth Mar 2019 #5

That's what we're faced with. Yavin4 Mar 2019 #11

We need socialism. Joe941 Mar 2019 #23

As practiced where? DemocratSinceBirth Mar 2019 #25

Exactly. Adrahil Mar 2019 #38

Democracy is a political system. Socialism is an economic system. DemocratSinceBirth Mar 2019 #44

Some thoughts: PETRUS Mar 2019 #77

And before: DemocratSinceBirth Mar 2019 #80

There have been, but most of the time they were crushed by one of two forces... Humanist_Activist Mar 2019 #98

Thanks for the reply. Some clarification: PETRUS Mar 2019 #106

They experimented with voluntary collectives in Israel. DemocratSinceBirth Mar 2019 #107

Quoting John Maynard Keynes Sgent Mar 2019 #8

He said that to make fun of economic forecasters marylandblue Mar 2019 #17

Capitalism? Aussie105 Mar 2019 #9

There's no such thing as "greedy" capitalism Yavin4 Mar 2019 #12

Yes. In our form of capitalism exboyfil Mar 2019 #76

Capitalism fits humans like a glove. roamer65 Mar 2019 #13

Trade and Industry have always been for profit, even in the Middle Ages marylandblue Mar 2019 #14

unregulated capitalism is brutal and suicidal Hermit-The-Prog Mar 2019 #15

We don't have capitalism Puzzledtraveller Mar 2019 #18

there are frogs singing outside Hermit-The-Prog Mar 2019 #21

Greed is the only rule of our safeinOhio Mar 2019 #20

If automation is killing jobs and we are getting more automated every year - riverine Mar 2019 #19

The UE rate is currently low because of low interest rates Yavin4 Mar 2019 #29

:). Boy,...no. It might help to read Hortensis Mar 2019 #22

Exactly. They have privileged classes in socialist societies. DemocratSinceBirth Mar 2019 #26

I did do a search on capitalism. Yavin4 Mar 2019 #30

uhhhh Lurker Deluxe Mar 2019 #57

Nazis were not socialists. That is a false right wing talking point. aidbo Mar 2019 #66

Yes! Importantly, socialist supporters did HELP right-wing extremists Hortensis Mar 2019 #114

No. I was replying to a person who seems to think nazis were socialists - they were not. aidbo Mar 2019 #116

I've forgotten the socialist co-leaders' name, but it's in Hortensis Mar 2019 #117

Again, that's a false talking point. The contemporary socialists were not fooled.. aidbo Mar 2019 #120

This is false on its face, fettered capitalism can be beneficial uponit7771 Mar 2019 #24

Who does the "fettering"? Yavin4 Mar 2019 #31

The government. DemocratSinceBirth Mar 2019 #32

And who makes sure that the right people control government? Yavin4 Mar 2019 #33

We don't get to vote? DemocratSinceBirth Mar 2019 #34

Your vote has been engineered not to count Yavin4 Mar 2019 #41

If capitalism and socialism were on the ballot the former would win. DemocratSinceBirth Mar 2019 #43

AMEN AND AMEN!!! I've been studying this for some time and every one of those have ended uponit7771 Mar 2019 #55

Says the Russians, we've seen it work correctly too many times uponit7771 Mar 2019 #54

So.... I'm waiting for your plan Adrahil Mar 2019 #39

I don't have a plan. But we should start a discussion of a post-capitalism nation. n/t Yavin4 Mar 2019 #42

Well, start then. Adrahil Mar 2019 #48

We need a gradual movement away from capitalist control of govt. to citizen control. Yavin4 Mar 2019 #52

I support almost all that. Adrahil Mar 2019 #53

If you are saying government should be the employer of last resort I agree with you. DemocratSinceBirth Mar 2019 #73

I agree with the title of your post (#52) here. MH1 Mar 2019 #74

Capitalism is the worst economic system except for all the others..... brooklynite Mar 2019 #27

Free Market Capitalism is the ongoing transfer of ALL of the democratisphere Mar 2019 #35

This message was self-deleted by its author Foggy Head Mar 2019 #37

Jesus knew this 2000 years ago, and I say that as an atheist, but Republicans need to read the bible Doodley Mar 2019 #40

Unregulated "greed without conscience" moondust Mar 2019 #45

Insufficiently regulated capitalism is unsustainable over time. harumph Mar 2019 #46

You cannot regulate capitalism because the capitalists control the government Yavin4 Mar 2019 #50

Then it sounds like your issue isn't capitalism... thesquanderer Mar 2019 #109

We can change that. We have to work together to stop the trend toward fascism. raging moderate Mar 2019 #122

Socialism is not sustainable over the long term. pnwmom Mar 2019 #47

Mostly because they rely on their natural resources or a large amount of "free trade".... Humanist_Activist Mar 2019 #61

And what would socialism rely on? It would also need natural resources or trade with other countries pnwmom Mar 2019 #62

True but such trade, without there being a profit motive, wouldn't have to be exploitative... Humanist_Activist Mar 2019 #78

That would only make theoretical sense in a case where we had a single socialist government, pnwmom Mar 2019 #88

I would call it a misnomer to call it a "Socialist" government, Democratic is preferable... Humanist_Activist Mar 2019 #90

Yes. You described a government that sounds like what they had in Communist China. pnwmom Mar 2019 #91

Wait, how is that like Communist China? Be specific. Humanist_Activist Mar 2019 #96

YOU just said it. Did someone else write your post? pnwmom Mar 2019 #99

So China was a worldwide stateless economy? What are you talking about? Humanist_Activist Mar 2019 #101

Interesting post and responses. I have herd that late stage capitalism is State Monopoly c-rational Mar 2019 #49

Capitalism has become almost a religion in the US. Deregulation is destroying Capitalism. walkingman Mar 2019 #51

Since Capitalism in North America and Western Europe, GulfCoast66 Mar 2019 #56

Capitalism as practiced now needs to brutally oppress the underclasses... Humanist_Activist Mar 2019 #60

Capitalism Can Survive erpowers Mar 2019 #63

Capitalism is simply the private ownership of the means of production for profit by said owners Yavin4 Mar 2019 #64

What about the Capitalists that make wind turbines, solar panels, AncientGeezer Mar 2019 #92

Without govt subsidies, those companies would not invest in environmentally targeted entities Yavin4 Mar 2019 #100

That's silly on it's face....Refer to the UN data.... AncientGeezer Mar 2019 #104

Capitalism is great at creating wealth. It's absolutely shit-horrible in DISTRIBUTING that wealth. HughBeaumont Mar 2019 #65

The ultimate goal of capitalism is the same as a game of Monolopy. DirtEdonE Mar 2019 #67

Great questions! kentuck Mar 2019 #68

Yes it is. But what we have in the US is not capitalism, it is capitalist socialism which is not cbdo2007 Mar 2019 #79

You seem to not know what words mean, what are you talking about? n/t Humanist_Activist Mar 2019 #82

We have a mixed economy. No need to over explain it. DemocratSinceBirth Mar 2019 #83

Its a very weak Social Democracy, but it certainly isn't Socialism... Humanist_Activist Mar 2019 #84

Social Security is an example of a socialist program as is Food Stamps and Medicaid.* DemocratSinceBirth Mar 2019 #85

Its Social Welfare and might be supported by Socialists, but isn't, in itself, Socialist... Humanist_Activist Mar 2019 #86

I agree 100% DemocratSinceBirth Mar 2019 #87

I was referring more to corporate welfare... cbdo2007 Mar 2019 #103

I see what you meant. MLK said somewhat the same thing. aidbo Mar 2019 #118

how long is long term? Inkfreak Mar 2019 #89

Not very long. n/t Yavin4 Mar 2019 #110

Neither is any other system based on unit labor JCMach1 Mar 2019 #105

No, we are headed to a world without PAID work. raging moderate Mar 2019 #111

Money was the stupidist human invention ever. hunter Mar 2019 #115

Ummm.... okay... Adrahil Mar 2019 #119