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In reply to the discussion: Capitalism is not sustainable over the long term. [View all]aidbo
(2,328 posts)116. No. I was replying to a person who seems to think nazis were socialists - they were not.
You seem to think socialists helped nazis gain power. This is also not true.
Nazis are fascists. Fascism is an anti-left ideology and gains power through the assent of centrists and business interests who see the fascists as protecting them from the power that workers would have under socialist policies.
https://www.abc.net.au/religion/nazism-socialism-and-the-falsification-of-history/10214302
Peter van Onselen's error is one of fact, not interpretation. Any analysis of the electoral platforms, internal party dynamics and political actions of the Nazis between 1921 and 1945 makes this clear. Perhaps the German Workers Party - the party of around 100 members led by Anton Drexler that preceded the Nazi Party (NSDAP) - might have sought to cobble authoritarian anti-capitalism (which is not the same as socialism) onto biological racism. The early, pre-Nazi party that Hitler joined toyed with forms of market control to benefit small businesses and to halt ostensible "foreign" - that is, Jewish - control over markets. But such dalliances would not last long. Yes, Mussolini had been a socialist early during the First World War, but broke with his comrades to support Italian expansionism, and then formed his fascist party to crush them. As in fascist Italy, Nazi ideas were self-consciously formulated to negate those of the left, not to imitate them. When Hitler took over the party in 1921, he shredded the anti-capitalist parts of the old party's platform.
...
Under Hitler, the party looked squarely to the middle classes and farmers rather than the working class for a political base. Hitler realigned it to ensure that it was an anti-socialist, anti-liberal, authoritarian, pro-business party - particularly after the failed Beerhall Putsch of 1923. The "socialism" in the name National Socialism was a strategically chosen misnomer designed to attract working class votes where possible, but they refused to take the bait. The vast majority voted for the Communist or Social Democratic parties.
People were not fooled by Nazis at the time.
The minority anti-capitalist strand of Nazism (Strasserism) on which van Onselen fastens was eliminated well before 1934, when Gregor Strasser and the Storm Trooper (SA) leader Ernst Roehm were murdered with over eighty others in the "Night of the Long Knives." In fact, Strasserism had already been defeated at the Bamberg Conference of 1926 when the Nazis were polling under 3% of the vote. Here, Hitler brought the dissidents back into line, denouncing them as "communists" and ruling out land expropriations and grassroots decision-making. He heightened the party's alliance with businesses small and large, and insisted on the absolute centralisation of decision-making - the "Fuehrer (leader) Principle."
...
For their part, businesses welcomed the Nazis' promises to suppress the left. On 20 February 1933, Hitler and Goering met with a large group of industrialists when Hitler declared that democracy and business were incompatible and that the workers needed to be dragged away from socialism. He promised bold action to protect their businesses and property from communism. The industrialists - including leading figures from I.G. Farben, Hoesch, Krupp, Siemens, Allianz and other senior mining and manufacturing groups - then contributed more than two million Reichsmarks to the Nazi election fund, with Goering tellingly suggesting that this would probably be the last election for a hundred years. Business leadership happily jettisoned democracy to rid Germany of socialism and to smash organised labour
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But we don't think in terms of thousands or hundreds of thousands of years.
PoindexterOglethorpe
Mar 2019
#16
No it hasn't, Capitalism is a product of the Industrial revolution, so maybe 200 years so far...
Humanist_Activist
Mar 2019
#58
True, though Mercantilism I would say is a type of Proto-Capitalism...
Humanist_Activist
Mar 2019
#95
I was trying to be generous, by the way, after all, if Capitalism does date back that far....
Humanist_Activist
Mar 2019
#81
Yeah, true, it does seem like Capitalism, at the very least, requires the existence of a large...
Humanist_Activist
Mar 2019
#97
True but I was rltalking about recent chattle slavery and European imperial genocides. Nt
Humanist_Activist
Mar 2019
#121
Sort of. But it hasn't been the world's dominant economic system for that long.
DanTex
Mar 2019
#112
Not really, its just the most recent in a long line of differing systems that humans have used...
Humanist_Activist
Mar 2019
#59
There have been, but most of the time they were crushed by one of two forces...
Humanist_Activist
Mar 2019
#98
No. I was replying to a person who seems to think nazis were socialists - they were not.
aidbo
Mar 2019
#116
Again, that's a false talking point. The contemporary socialists were not fooled..
aidbo
Mar 2019
#120
If capitalism and socialism were on the ballot the former would win.
DemocratSinceBirth
Mar 2019
#43
AMEN AND AMEN!!! I've been studying this for some time and every one of those have ended
uponit7771
Mar 2019
#55
I don't have a plan. But we should start a discussion of a post-capitalism nation. n/t
Yavin4
Mar 2019
#42
We need a gradual movement away from capitalist control of govt. to citizen control.
Yavin4
Mar 2019
#52
If you are saying government should be the employer of last resort I agree with you.
DemocratSinceBirth
Mar 2019
#73
Jesus knew this 2000 years ago, and I say that as an atheist, but Republicans need to read the bible
Doodley
Mar 2019
#40
We can change that. We have to work together to stop the trend toward fascism.
raging moderate
Mar 2019
#122
Mostly because they rely on their natural resources or a large amount of "free trade"....
Humanist_Activist
Mar 2019
#61
And what would socialism rely on? It would also need natural resources or trade with other countries
pnwmom
Mar 2019
#62
True but such trade, without there being a profit motive, wouldn't have to be exploitative...
Humanist_Activist
Mar 2019
#78
That would only make theoretical sense in a case where we had a single socialist government,
pnwmom
Mar 2019
#88
I would call it a misnomer to call it a "Socialist" government, Democratic is preferable...
Humanist_Activist
Mar 2019
#90
Yes. You described a government that sounds like what they had in Communist China.
pnwmom
Mar 2019
#91
So China was a worldwide stateless economy? What are you talking about?
Humanist_Activist
Mar 2019
#101
Interesting post and responses. I have herd that late stage capitalism is State Monopoly
c-rational
Mar 2019
#49
Capitalism has become almost a religion in the US. Deregulation is destroying Capitalism.
walkingman
Mar 2019
#51
Capitalism as practiced now needs to brutally oppress the underclasses...
Humanist_Activist
Mar 2019
#60
Capitalism is simply the private ownership of the means of production for profit by said owners
Yavin4
Mar 2019
#64
Without govt subsidies, those companies would not invest in environmentally targeted entities
Yavin4
Mar 2019
#100
Capitalism is great at creating wealth. It's absolutely shit-horrible in DISTRIBUTING that wealth.
HughBeaumont
Mar 2019
#65
Yes it is. But what we have in the US is not capitalism, it is capitalist socialism which is not
cbdo2007
Mar 2019
#79
You seem to not know what words mean, what are you talking about? n/t
Humanist_Activist
Mar 2019
#82
Its a very weak Social Democracy, but it certainly isn't Socialism...
Humanist_Activist
Mar 2019
#84
Social Security is an example of a socialist program as is Food Stamps and Medicaid.*
DemocratSinceBirth
Mar 2019
#85
Its Social Welfare and might be supported by Socialists, but isn't, in itself, Socialist...
Humanist_Activist
Mar 2019
#86