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DanTex

(20,709 posts)
90. Here's a post I wrote about this a while back, with some links.
Fri Aug 24, 2012, 10:02 AM
Aug 2012
There is basically no doubt that Lance was doping.

The short answer to your question is that the testing is not even close to foolproof. Armstrong is far from the only doper to never test positive. 1996 Tour de France winner Bjarne Riis never got caught, but later admitted that he had been doping for five years. Sprinter Marion Jones never tested positive. Jan Ullrich never tested positive, but was later implicated in the Operacion Puerto doping case. And even people who did finally get caught, like Floyd Landis or Tyler Hamilton, only got caught after years of successfully beating the tests.

The unfortunate truth is that, while testing positive is very strong evidence of doping, but not testing positive basically proves nothing. Probably the single best piece of evidence against Armstrong is that he won seven TdFs at a time when doping was rampant. The story sometimes peddled about doping is that it is a "short-cut" for people who don't want to work hard. This is not even close to the truth. The best cyclists train incredibly hard and also take PEDs -- in fact, one of the benefits of doping is that it allows you to train harder and recover faster. And PEDs don't just give you a small boost in performance, they give you a huge boost in performance. So it is almost out of the question that anyone who finished in the top five or even top ten of the TdF while Lance was competing was entirely clean. Much less a guy who rose from being a good but unremarkable rider before cancer to a seven-time winner, who repeatedly defeated Jan Ullrich, who is not only a biological freak of nature but was also doped up at the time.

Also, it is not quite true that he never failed a drug test. For example, once he tested positive for corticosteroid, but then, according to his masseuse, he had a doctor backdate a prescription for a certain cream in order to get a medical exemption. Then there was the EPO incident. EPO is a substance which causes the body to produce more red blood cells, and for a long time it was widely used by cyclists (and other athletes) and there was no effective test for it. When they developed a test, they went back and tested a bunch of "B" urine samples from the 1999 Tour de France, just for research purposes. A reporter managed to get hold of the results, and it turns out that several of Armstrong's samples tested positive for EPO. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/magazine/05/23/lance.armstrong/index.html

And then there is corruption -- according to Tyler Hamilton, Armstrong tested positive for EPO in the 2001 tour of Switzerland but he talked to the UCI and got the positive test to "go away". Nobody knows the exact details of how (or whether this actually happened), but it is a fact that Armstrong has made two donations to the UCI in his career for a total of $125,000, and for the UCI to accept money from Lance Armstrong is a monumental conflict of interest.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/cycling/8530063/Lance-Armstrong-denies-claims-as-Tyler-Hamilton-alleges-seven-time-Tour-de-France-winner-tested-positive-in-2001.html
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/mcquaid-reveals-armstrong-made-two-donations-to-the-uci

It is true, though, that Armstrong officially never got caught for doping. But like I said, there are a lot of people who everyone knows doped, some of whom have admitted it, who went a whole career without getting caught. There is an arms race of sorts between dopers and testers, and the most sophisticated dopers (including Armstrong) manage to stay ahead of the testers. For example, even after EPO became banned, there was still blood doping to increase your red blood cell count -- this is where receive an actual blood transfusion during a race. In fact, this is how Tyler Hamilton got busted, when they came out with a test that could detected foreign blood cells in the blood. Of course, AFAIK, they still can't test for "autologous" blood doping -- this is where you extract blood from your own body, allow your body to regenerate the blood cells, and then re-insert your own preserved blood back during a race. Someday, I imagine, they'll be able to test for that, but the dopers will have figured some other thing out by then.


As far as why they are going after Lance. This is because, on paper, he is one of the greatest cyclists of all time, but in reality, he is a fraud. Although it is true that many if not most professional cyclists use performing enhancing drugs, Lance was known not just as an avid doper, but also as an enforcer of the "omerta" -- the code of silence in the sport of cycling with regards to doping.

One incident that rubbed a lot of people the wrong way was when Armstrong chased down another cyclist named Filippo Simeoni. The basic story is that Simeoni was part of a six-person break that included no first-tier riders. Typically, the etiquette here would be to let the break go, and give the non-name riders a chance for glory by winning one stage. Since none of the riders were a threat to win the overall race, there was no need to worry about the time lost. Anyway, basically what happened is that Armstrong chased the break down and told the riders he would only let them go if Simeoni dropped back into the main pack. And this was revenge for the fact that Simeoni had testified against a doctor named Michele Ferrari for being involved in doping -- not coincidentally, Armstrong has worked extensively with Ferrari during his career.
http://www.bicycling.com/news/pro-cycling/armstrong-hunts-down-rider

Finally, it's not because the French don't like an American winning the tour. It may be true that the French don't like Lance, but Greg Lemond won the tour three times before Lance. The real issue is simply that the man who, on paper, won the tour more times than anyone else is a fraud. And not just a small fraud, an enormous fraud. In contrast to his off-bike persona, where he claims it's all about cancer and would never cheat or put any drugs in his body, in cycling he is a serial doper, and not a reluctant one, but an enthusiastic one. It's also important because doping in sports is a bad thing -- it makes it impossible for riders to want to ride clean, or even "mostly" clean, to compete at the highest levels, and it forces athletes to engage in practices that are potentially harmful just in order to remain competitive.

In the grand scheme of things, I suppose, the integrity of cycling doesn't really matter that much. It would be nice if bike races were about athletic competition, and not about who has more sophisticated doping protocols and better "sports doctors". But compared to something like getting universal health care, this is really not a big deal, and it only affects a small number of people.

Still, if you are intersted, I would recommend reading "From Lance to Landis" by journalist David Walsh. It's a pretty enlightening read, and it pains a pretty stark picture of the doping situation in cycling, and also presents some pretty damning evidence agains Lance -- and this was even before Floyd Landis and Tyler Hamilton publicly accused Armstrong.
http://www.amazon.com/From-Lance-Landis-American-Controversy/dp/034549962X

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014155971#post16

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

ya. it is a bummer. and it is cheating. nt seabeyond Aug 2012 #1
There are penalties for cheating DontTreadOnMe Aug 2012 #2
Just for the record.. ananda Aug 2012 #3
Stupid joeybee12 Aug 2012 #59
always knew he was a cheating asshole CatWoman Aug 2012 #4
I never liked him either Whisp Aug 2012 #39
I think you're wrong about that unc70 Aug 2012 #43
don't be too sure of that Duppers Aug 2012 #58
He was buddies with GW Bush, big Republican ass adigal Aug 2012 #129
I repeat, stupid joeybee12 Aug 2012 #60
Post removed Post removed Aug 2012 #77
Have fun in your short tenure here..... TalkingDog Aug 2012 #80
Sorry but this panel is the sporting equivalent of the "when did you stop beating your wife"... truebrit71 Aug 2012 #95
Wow. TeeYiYi Aug 2012 #5
Ahahahahaaaaaaa!!! Codeine Aug 2012 #6
Yet he failed no doping tests... Mec9000 Aug 2012 #7
There is always an apologist for the cheaters HangOnKids Aug 2012 #10
So you are saying he has failed some of the 100s of tests he had to take? Mec9000 Aug 2012 #14
He failed the "don't buy or take PEDs around other people" test. mathematic Aug 2012 #32
I never said anything remotely close to that HangOnKids Aug 2012 #121
The point is... awoke_in_2003 Aug 2012 #20
The one thing I cant get over brettdale Aug 2012 #26
So glad you don't have an answer... joeybee12 Aug 2012 #61
Have A Great Day Joey! HangOnKids Aug 2012 #119
He was tested over 500 times and never failed a test obamanut2012 Aug 2012 #84
Then you'd better call me an apologist too...call me weird, but not failing any test... truebrit71 Aug 2012 #97
Exactly The River Aug 2012 #16
That's how I feel too. Greybnk48 Aug 2012 #30
There was no test for EPO back then taught_me_patience Aug 2012 #41
well then we might as well strip everybody who has ever won of their honor. uncle ray Aug 2012 #46
I think your last sentence is very important jsmirman Aug 2012 #48
The purpose is to keep the sport fair and safe. tinrobot Aug 2012 #53
But you were literally just "along for the ride" if you weren't doping jsmirman Aug 2012 #111
They already got riders 2-5 tinrobot Aug 2012 #128
Yep jsmirman Aug 2012 #142
I agree taught_me_patience Aug 2012 #109
"There is now an accurate urine test BadgerKid Aug 2012 #56
He also gave money to the people testing him. tinrobot Aug 2012 #45
Wrong. He did fail doping tests. Just never got sanctioned, until now. DanTex Aug 2012 #79
Any Proof?? Link maybe?? Mec9000 Aug 2012 #81
Here's a post I wrote about this a while back, with some links. DanTex Aug 2012 #90
It is still hearsay... Mec9000 Aug 2012 #99
They did come out with it. They also have ten or so eyewitnesses. DanTex Aug 2012 #104
USADA has no jurisdiction over his TDF titles.. truebrit71 Aug 2012 #114
USADA officially represents WADA in the US. DanTex Aug 2012 #118
"but now he's caught" - except he hasn't been caught. He refuses to participate in the Kangaroo... truebrit71 Aug 2012 #125
UCI has responded to the USADA... truebrit71 Aug 2012 #126
Sorry but that is bullshit... truebrit71 Aug 2012 #98
Umm... no, there were no problems with "chain of custody" DanTex Aug 2012 #103
Umm, there were plenty of problems with those samples.. truebrit71 Aug 2012 #110
Mis-labelling? Cross-contamination? LOL. DanTex Aug 2012 #113
Yup. Cross-contamination and mis-handling the samples...Zero evidence? Not so much... truebrit71 Aug 2012 #130
I seem to remember sarisataka Aug 2012 #134
NO. The subject line on this thread is WRONG. He has not yet been banned or stripped. Tx4obama Aug 2012 #8
NO! I used the identical title as used in the linked piece from HuffPO hlthe2b Aug 2012 #11
The OP is using the headlines the media are using -- which are wrong obamanut2012 Aug 2012 #86
DOPESTRONG REP Aug 2012 #9
DUzy! HangOnKids Aug 2012 #13
Wriststrong!!! KeepItReal Aug 2012 #29
Sad that he was able to drag it out this long BlueStreak Aug 2012 #12
Sad story, but a lesson about hero worship. Deep13 Aug 2012 #15
Link? n/t tammywammy Aug 2012 #17
oops....added n/t hlthe2b Aug 2012 #18
Wrong! This is the headline "Lance Armstrong gives up fight against USADA charges" jannyk Aug 2012 #19
Wrong! Don't you dare tell me I am not being truthful. I took headline from HUFFPO, not LA TIMES> hlthe2b Aug 2012 #21
htlthe2b CatWoman Aug 2012 #22
Thank you CatWoman. I don't understand some of the latest crop of posters here... hlthe2b Aug 2012 #24
Obvious cheat is obvious alcibiades_mystery Aug 2012 #23
About fucking time. Like all right wing assholes, he thinks the ends justify any means and rules are Egalitarian Thug Aug 2012 #25
Not sure this has anything to do with being right wing eridani Aug 2012 #52
He's far from right ring... joeybee12 Aug 2012 #62
BS. He is and always has been. I guess you know even less. n/t Egalitarian Thug Aug 2012 #63
How on earth do you know Lance Armstrong's politics? a la izquierda Aug 2012 #64
Cancer. There's a community within the community of well-heeled victims/donors. Egalitarian Thug Aug 2012 #102
And do share those words. a la izquierda Aug 2012 #140
Frankly, whether you believe me or not is so far from relevant that science has yet to define Egalitarian Thug Aug 2012 #148
Armstrong isn't a Winger obamanut2012 Aug 2012 #87
Please see #102. n/t Egalitarian Thug Aug 2012 #117
No surprise there. Alduin Aug 2012 #27
How will his trophies actually be taken away? bluestateguy Aug 2012 #28
They're on their very ironic way I'm sure. rad51 Aug 2012 #55
I think he definitely used... but jsmirman Aug 2012 #31
Everyone he beat actually was busted for doping. tinrobot Aug 2012 #47
Thank you - exactly! jsmirman Aug 2012 #49
Not everyone was doing it tinrobot Aug 2012 #54
Maybe, but when it's an open "secret" jsmirman Aug 2012 #106
Virenque, Pantani... jsmirman Aug 2012 #50
Armstrong was worse than the typical doper. DanTex Aug 2012 #82
So why does Riis get to keep his title, with an asterisk? jsmirman Aug 2012 #115
Well, officially, Riis was never sanctioned, and Ullrich was not implicated in 1997. DanTex Aug 2012 #120
Right? jsmirman Aug 2012 #141
Actually, the UCI has asked for Riis' yellow jersey back jsmirman Aug 2012 #143
Yeah, I saw that. I don't get it. DanTex Aug 2012 #145
All I know is that Riis has publicly said "I doped to win the Tour" jsmirman Aug 2012 #146
I'll defer to George Carlin: sadbear Aug 2012 #33
and fuck Dr. Phil too! Whisp Aug 2012 #42
WTF is the USADA? and what providence does it have over the Tour De France? crimson77 Aug 2012 #34
None. elleng Aug 2012 #36
The United States of America Dairy Association is all powerful. Kaleva Aug 2012 #44
Stop it!! Hassin Bin Sober Aug 2012 #122
We of the Raw Milk Underground (RMU) cannont be stopped! Kaleva Aug 2012 #138
This is what my husband said last night. a la izquierda Aug 2012 #65
That's a good analogy obamanut2012 Aug 2012 #93
Is there a more passionate group of people then people who race bikes? crimson77 Aug 2012 #107
US Anti-Doping Agency DanTex Aug 2012 #88
Zero obamanut2012 Aug 2012 #89
He failed no tests. This 'USADA' dishonors us all. elleng Aug 2012 #35
ding ding ding, Tygart is in a power struggle with UCI Evasporque Aug 2012 #71
Actually, he did fail tests. DanTex Aug 2012 #78
Wrong. He never failed an official test. truebrit71 Aug 2012 #101
Yes, he did fail an official test. DanTex Aug 2012 #108
He had a prescription for the corticosteriod...what don't you understand about that? truebrit71 Aug 2012 #112
He didn't provide the prescription until after he tested positive. DanTex Aug 2012 #116
You know that he went to a doctor afterwards to get the prescription? How do you know this? truebrit71 Aug 2012 #124
Wow, you really don't get it. DanTex Aug 2012 #133
1) If he had no reason to believe that the medication would cause an issue why disclose it? truebrit71 Aug 2012 #139
Umm... because the medication had corticosteroid in it! Are you for real? DanTex Aug 2012 #144
So in other words you got nothing...no proof just heresay... truebrit71 Aug 2012 #147
"Doping" is still as stupid as those that enforce it in this case. flvegan Aug 2012 #37
Tell Them What You Think The River Aug 2012 #38
I dont really understand the evidence against him aikoaiko Aug 2012 #40
People who rode with him on his team jsmirman Aug 2012 #51
Do it for the little kid on their bike-so they know they can do things without cheating/doping graham4anything Aug 2012 #57
People dope in Cat 5 races. It's insanity. a la izquierda Aug 2012 #66
Hounded out of his medals. MadHound Aug 2012 #67
+1 n/t tammywammy Aug 2012 #69
Absolutely right...nt joeybee12 Aug 2012 #72
And, a US Federal invesigation that dropped everything obamanut2012 Aug 2012 #94
As a former cyclist who does not like Armstrong sarisataka Aug 2012 #135
I have mixed feelings.. sendero Aug 2012 #68
With you there sarisataka Aug 2012 #136
WADA UCI...USADA - Power Struggle Evasporque Aug 2012 #70
From those articles, it looks to me like USADA has jurisdiction here, and the UCI is... DanTex Aug 2012 #92
UCI tells USADA to "prove it"... truebrit71 Aug 2012 #127
This is exactly right -- USADA has no authority to do this obamanut2012 Aug 2012 #96
UCI has told the USADA basically to put up or shut up... truebrit71 Aug 2012 #131
NYT has best summary of what comes next in terms of appeals by the other (international) agencies.. hlthe2b Aug 2012 #73
I knew this fairy tale was too good to be true. Odin2005 Aug 2012 #74
so this guy is the next AsahinaKimi Aug 2012 #75
The USADA wants to send a message to the public tularetom Aug 2012 #76
USADA doesn't have the authority to do this obamanut2012 Aug 2012 #83
Shhhhhh... You are going to burst some bubbles.. Mec9000 Aug 2012 #85
I'm pretty sure they actually do. DanTex Aug 2012 #91
No, they don;t obamanut2012 Aug 2012 #100
If WADA sides with USADA, what can UCI do? DanTex Aug 2012 #105
WADA confirms USADA jurisdiction in US Postal Service cycling case DotGone Aug 2012 #123
Lance Armstrong decision must involve us, says UCI statement BklnDem75 Aug 2012 #132
It's all over my TV set so it all must be true! LOL just1voice Aug 2012 #137
This Lance Armstrong issue is nuts SHRED Aug 2012 #149
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