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In reply to the discussion: So let me see if I understand the 2 biggest hot button topics on DU [View all]Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)219. Go here:
Page 31, para 123.
123. The essential complaint made about the fairness and accuracy of the description of the offence is that it did not set out the context to which we have referred from which it was contended that the offence of rape could not be inferred. The context would have made clear that she either consented or he had reasonable belief in her consent.
124. We do not consider that the offence was not fairly and accurately described. It is quite clear that the gravamen of the offence described is that Mr Assange had sexual intercourse with her without a condom and that she had only been prepared to consent to sexual intercourse with a condom. The description of the conduct makes clear that he consummated sexual intercourse when she was asleep and that she had insisted upon him wearing a condom. "Consummated" refers to having intercourse, not to ejaculation. In our judgement it was not necessary to go further than was set out in the description of the conduct as it is difficult to see how a person could reasonably have believed in consent if the complainant alleges a state of sleep or half sleep, and secondly it avers that consent would not have been given without a condom. There is nothing in the statement from which it could be inferred that he reasonably expected that she would have consented to sex without a condom.
125. Nor do the inconsistencies in her account and text messages relied upon by Mr Assange assist. In one sent by her she described herself as "half asleep" and she accepted in a further interview that she was not fast asleep. These are matters of evidence which would be highly relevant at trial. But it is not for this court to assess whether the allegations may fail. It was not therefore necessary to set the details of these out. There is, therefore, nothing in the particulars which is neither fair nor accurate.
126. The gravamen of Mr Assange's argument is that the description of the offence by the Prosecutor does not set out the continuum of events and the context, but seeks to isolate one aspect. That continuum and context showed that she agreed to sexual intercourse when she realised what was happening; it cannot therefore be alleged that he did not have a reasonable belief in consent. We accept Ms Montgomery's observations about how far it would be right to see what happened afterwards as consensual rather than reluctant submission. But the fact of protected sexual intercourse on other occasions cannot show that she was, or that Mr Assange could reasonably have believed that she was, in her sleep consenting to unprotected intercourse. The fact that she allowed it to continue once she was aware of what was happening cannot go to his state of mind or its reasonableness when he initially penetrated her. Once awake she was deciding whether to let him go on doing what he had started. However it is clear that she is saying that she would rather he had not started at all and had not consented. The prosecution case on rape is or includes the start of sexual intercourse: its references to "consummation" cannot in context be confined to its conclusion or to ejaculation. It is clear that the allegation is that he had sexual intercourse with her when she was not in a position to consent and so he could not have had any reasonable belief that she did.
http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/Resources/JCO/Documents/Judgments/assange-judgment.pdf
124. We do not consider that the offence was not fairly and accurately described. It is quite clear that the gravamen of the offence described is that Mr Assange had sexual intercourse with her without a condom and that she had only been prepared to consent to sexual intercourse with a condom. The description of the conduct makes clear that he consummated sexual intercourse when she was asleep and that she had insisted upon him wearing a condom. "Consummated" refers to having intercourse, not to ejaculation. In our judgement it was not necessary to go further than was set out in the description of the conduct as it is difficult to see how a person could reasonably have believed in consent if the complainant alleges a state of sleep or half sleep, and secondly it avers that consent would not have been given without a condom. There is nothing in the statement from which it could be inferred that he reasonably expected that she would have consented to sex without a condom.
125. Nor do the inconsistencies in her account and text messages relied upon by Mr Assange assist. In one sent by her she described herself as "half asleep" and she accepted in a further interview that she was not fast asleep. These are matters of evidence which would be highly relevant at trial. But it is not for this court to assess whether the allegations may fail. It was not therefore necessary to set the details of these out. There is, therefore, nothing in the particulars which is neither fair nor accurate.
126. The gravamen of Mr Assange's argument is that the description of the offence by the Prosecutor does not set out the continuum of events and the context, but seeks to isolate one aspect. That continuum and context showed that she agreed to sexual intercourse when she realised what was happening; it cannot therefore be alleged that he did not have a reasonable belief in consent. We accept Ms Montgomery's observations about how far it would be right to see what happened afterwards as consensual rather than reluctant submission. But the fact of protected sexual intercourse on other occasions cannot show that she was, or that Mr Assange could reasonably have believed that she was, in her sleep consenting to unprotected intercourse. The fact that she allowed it to continue once she was aware of what was happening cannot go to his state of mind or its reasonableness when he initially penetrated her. Once awake she was deciding whether to let him go on doing what he had started. However it is clear that she is saying that she would rather he had not started at all and had not consented. The prosecution case on rape is or includes the start of sexual intercourse: its references to "consummation" cannot in context be confined to its conclusion or to ejaculation. It is clear that the allegation is that he had sexual intercourse with her when she was not in a position to consent and so he could not have had any reasonable belief that she did.
http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/Resources/JCO/Documents/Judgments/assange-judgment.pdf
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So let me see if I understand the 2 biggest hot button topics on DU [View all]
Nuclear Unicorn
Aug 2012
OP
+2. That's the problem, he's a "DU Hero", so now they have to try & defend the indefensible.
Tarheel_Dem
Aug 2012
#185
Between weed and copyright violations, I have a really hard time believing most DUers give
ZombieHorde
Aug 2012
#71
You mean people here are insufficiently enthusiastic about imprisoning pot smokers?
Warren DeMontague
Aug 2012
#153
Do you think the State of Texas was right when it was throwing gay ppl. in jail for consensual sex?
Warren DeMontague
Aug 2012
#163
Of course I am unwilling to acknowledge an objective distinction between laws.
ZombieHorde
Aug 2012
#214
Many people here, especially from the U.S. confuse U.S. and Swedish law.
Agnosticsherbet
Aug 2012
#194
"When people say, he has not been charged, they seem to use this..."
Warren DeMontague
Aug 2012
#198
How blind do you have to be not to see the similarity in people's defenses of the two?
pnwmom
Aug 2012
#3
You, and Rush: "Limbaugh: Liberals Would “Help A Thousand Rapists” To Free “One America-Hater”"
Zorra
Aug 2012
#22
My pleasure, KoKo. I'm so tired of the constant posting of anti-Progressive RW talking points at DU.
Zorra
Aug 2012
#28
You nailed it, Zorra. I saw the name of post and knew before I read it what it would say.
October
Aug 2012
#81
Holder speaks for the existing power structure, as would the director of the CIA.
ronnie624
Aug 2012
#55
If someone was setting him up, wouldn't they have given the women much better stories?
pnwmom
Aug 2012
#16
So if he had not done these things and it was just some bloke who'd happened to get to London
treestar
Aug 2012
#62
Your're claiming 2 established female progressives are really paid whores for the PTB?
Nuclear Unicorn
Aug 2012
#103
You claim they are deliberately telling stories they know to be false to discredit Assange
Nuclear Unicorn
Aug 2012
#109
Bullshit. Plenty of people LOUDLY proclaim Obama has assassinated American citizens
riderinthestorm
Aug 2012
#74
Tiresome, disingenuous and a repetitive slam to DUers who read the situation differently than you
riderinthestorm
Aug 2012
#99
Clarified in 118, I meant to say Americans and non-Americans but if you'd like I'll go make an edit
riderinthestorm
Aug 2012
#126
"She". And thank you, yes, it was a general reference both to extra judicial assassinations of both
riderinthestorm
Aug 2012
#118
No. If you disagree with the reason, it's an "excuse"; if you agree, it's an "explanation", because
patrice
Aug 2012
#176
Except that the two issues have only very superficial similarities and your post is a uber strawman.
redgreenandblue
Aug 2012
#19
But those making excuses for Assange have non interest in discerning if a rape has been committed
Nuclear Unicorn
Aug 2012
#37
Everytime you complain about my characterizing your argument as an appeal to shadow governments
Nuclear Unicorn
Aug 2012
#225
Could you post a source, or did you just make up the "pursuant to prosecution" part
Zorra
Aug 2012
#170
OMG! It's like a Monte Python skit. He's not charged, and Sweden is not really prosecuting him,
Zorra
Aug 2012
#181
I know, but they said he did it. Slip of the tongue, or is someone presumed guilty before being
Zorra
Aug 2012
#186
Whether such a case exists or whether a trial will result in conviction is not at issue.
Spider Jerusalem
Aug 2012
#221
That context was examined and found to still constitute grounds for a charge of rape...
Spider Jerusalem
Aug 2012
#234
Since we have closed Gitmo and left Afghanistan, what else can we argue about?
AngryAmish
Aug 2012
#50
Yes, we are all appalled when charges of misdemeanors are turned into charges
sabrina 1
Aug 2012
#94
I appreciate your attempt to marginalize complex scenarios by oversimplifying them
LaydeeBug
Aug 2012
#102
Trying to read everything coming out...and parsing betwen the two or three sides..
KoKo
Aug 2012
#139
My enlisted 19 year old niece was raped by a US soldier while stationed in Germany.
cr8tvlde
Aug 2012
#142
Liberate us sexually so they won't have it available to divide and distract us.
Fire Walk With Me
Aug 2012
#145