General Discussion

Moostache

(11,308 posts)

145. Understand your point, but we will agree to disagree...

Tue Jul 23, 2019, 01:54 PM

Jul 2019

It is true the Constitution does not demand Impeachment, but the rule of law must be upheld or this entire experiment in self-governance will erode away into totalitarianism.

I will only posit the following:
1) Trump HAS commited crimes (plural) that warrant prosecution
2) While POTUS, he is immune from prosecution vis a vis a craven DOJ
3) Crimes that are known and unpunished or uninvestigated (including those where document requests are simply ignored and NOTHING happens) are dangerous to the survival of our system.

The end result may be a fait au compli...that is a very real possibility. And if Nixon had Fox News and the modern GOP, he would have survived Watergate too. But if Trump gets off without even so much as a legitimate and fully executed Congressional Impeachment Inquiry, then kiss the rule of law good bye, and that matters more than winning in the end.

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"In this instance, Pelosi's normally acute political judgment is failing her.." [View all] Laura PourMeADrink Jul 2019 OP

Look at the numbers. Almost 60% of the country is opposed to impeachment redstateblues Jul 2019 #1

Self fullfilling prophecy worked. We don't stand up Laura PourMeADrink Jul 2019 #5

EXACTLY... could not have said it better!! InAbLuEsTaTe Jul 2019 #190

Gotta love the du prognosticators who always know the future Fullduplexxx Jul 2019 #13

How much do you think that might be due to group psychology? ChicagoRonin Jul 2019 #16

Justin Amish has done that. The result? Crickets redstateblues Jul 2019 #33

Justin Amash is a hero to me, watoos Jul 2019 #54

I admire his decision. In 1974 the Democrats controlled the House 56-42 as well as the House redstateblues Jul 2019 #91

Now you're talkin'!! InAbLuEsTaTe Jul 2019 #191

Those numbers are good!! Nixon was around that right after Saturday night Massacre uponit7771 Jul 2019 #47

We need new leadership. In retrospect, we have for a while now. Forty-plus years of one step KPN Jul 2019 #119

Agree. But Biden is the highest in matchups..our only Laura PourMeADrink Jul 2019 #163

True, but "the public" pressured Republicans then. And this president's followers are, unlike emmaverybo Jul 2019 #143

The public is pressuring democrats now, the polling numbers aren't that far off. uponit7771 Jul 2019 #158

Impeachment is not a popular option with American people stopdiggin Jul 2019 #51

Whether or not to impeach has nothing to do with polls. watoos Jul 2019 #55

Sad that so many do not feel this way. faymer7 Jul 2019 #68

Until most consituents do, it will not be the choice of the majority. ehrnst Jul 2019 #97

Sadly. The "investigations" have already produced justification for moving forward. KPN Jul 2019 #122

"Investigations" - are you implying that they are not 'really' investigations? ehrnst Jul 2019 #125

The Mueller Report. Haven't read it in its entirety yet, but enough to say there is clear evidence KPN Jul 2019 #137

Well, seeing as I'm not the target audience, as are you - unless you are a ehrnst Jul 2019 #164

Ah, well ... I wish I could convince you otherwise. KPN Jul 2019 #169

Agree with you completely!! Thekaspervote Jul 2019 #180

Majority not needed for impeachment, wasn't needed for Nixon ... I do agree on investigations uponit7771 Jul 2019 #160

It's a political process and decision, not a criminal justice/judicial one. ehrnst Jul 2019 #96

The avg polling is higher than Nixon's, I don't know where you're getting this from uponit7771 Jul 2019 #159

Leaders lead. Pelosi's punting. nt KPN Jul 2019 #118

In what way?(nt) ehrnst Jul 2019 #156

Obviously this is opinion. My opinion is that she has the ability to influence others' perspectives KPN Jul 2019 #179

Why a person with a vested interest gets to decide may Laura PourMeADrink Jul 2019 #171

I'm not sure I understand your comment. Do you mean House incumbents? KPN Jul 2019 #178

It doesn't matter - it was the same with Nixon at first. Public needs to led and thereby become ElementaryPenguin Jul 2019 #127

During the Nixon Era, a majority was also against impeachment. Until... Eyeball_Kid Jul 2019 #136

You mean Speaker Pelosi? ehrnst Jul 2019 #157

Thank you... yes, it is speaker Pelosi and no one has our country's interest at heart more than her Thekaspervote Jul 2019 #181

Nancy fears the exposure of evidence that will convince the nation that Trumpy is a criminal. stopdiggin Jul 2019 #177

Indeed. I have another descriptor, but it's NSFW... ehrnst Jul 2019 #196

"Nancy fears the exposure of evidence that will convince the nation that Trumpy is a criminal. " ehrnst Jul 2019 #195

I agree with you, watoos Jul 2019 #2

R's flipped those seats because they lied about the ACA and the Democrats who voted for it emulatorloo Jul 2019 #27

Then it was Democrats fault for not calling out those lies. watoos Jul 2019 #57

OMG can you hear yourself? Recursion Jul 2019 #110

Confirmation bias is a powerful need. ehrnst Jul 2019 #162

And under Speaker Pelosi, we took back the house in November. ehrnst Jul 2019 #161

Dems did call out the lies. Except R's had Koch Brothers millions to amplify those lies in 2010 emulatorloo Jul 2019 #201

How does the author know she is relying on the Clinton precedent marylandblue Jul 2019 #3

So how's the "strategy" working so far?. Laura PourMeADrink Jul 2019 #7

Since her goal is to get Democrats elected in 2020, we won't know marylandblue Jul 2019 #11

Exactly why she shouldn't be calling the shots on Laura PourMeADrink Jul 2019 #15

Huh? I imagine her goal includes helping win the Presidency. Why wouldn't it? marylandblue Jul 2019 #30

Decide on impeachment Laura PourMeADrink Jul 2019 #35

Didn't Speaker Pelosi herself say, watoos Jul 2019 #58

Yes, but we didn't impeach and it seems apparent Laura PourMeADrink Jul 2019 #77

"Apparent" for what "political reasons?" ehrnst Jul 2019 #135

Do you know it has been over 3 months since Laura PourMeADrink Jul 2019 #151

Oh....another case of She DIDN'T DO IT FAST ENOUGH FOR ME, so IT DOESN'T COUNT!!! ehrnst Jul 2019 #153

Day after report came out April 3rd! That's when Laura PourMeADrink Jul 2019 #154

Didn't bother to read my post before responding. ehrnst Jul 2019 #155

Yes I did E ! Reread. I sense your frustrations. Laura PourMeADrink Jul 2019 #166

It's Speaker Pelosi.... ehrnst Jul 2019 #168

No, just a simple analyst, trained to look at every side Laura PourMeADrink Jul 2019 #170

Get out! I'm an analyst and researcher! ehrnst Jul 2019 #192

You are a great proponent for her! Hope we Laura PourMeADrink Jul 2019 #193

Me too. ehrnst Jul 2019 #194

I'd say keeping the House is a pretty big deal. So who would be your choice for leader redstateblues Jul 2019 #89

Of course it's important. But it shouldn't be our Laura PourMeADrink Jul 2019 #152

she mentioned in the past NewJeffCT Jul 2019 #78

YA THINK??? Skittles Jul 2019 #4

Starting to think she is way ahead of us. That she Laura PourMeADrink Jul 2019 #6

we don't know what her plans are Skittles Jul 2019 #8

That's because the "I trust her" proponents here say it Laura PourMeADrink Jul 2019 #22

well, I am fed up with the "I trust her" crowd Skittles Jul 2019 #24

My sentiments exactly ProfessionalLeft Jul 2019 #104

yeah, and my personal opinion is that that "gang" have decided to just go along to get along anarch Jul 2019 #56

It's extraordinarily sad and frustrating if your theory Laura PourMeADrink Jul 2019 #73

She has no way of knowing any of that, and neither do you. marylandblue Jul 2019 #14

All signs pointing that way... doesn't take a genius. nt Laura PourMeADrink Jul 2019 #20

Whatever. I don't have a crystal ball, and I don't believe anyone else does either. marylandblue Jul 2019 #34

Ya, well maybe trump will commit some horrible Laura PourMeADrink Jul 2019 #40

Nobody said "no big deal." It's time to wake up and recognize that impeachment is a failed concept. marylandblue Jul 2019 #45

You are absolutely wrong according to one of Trump's book authors. watoos Jul 2019 #60

I once did the equivalent of impeachment - I got a narcissist fired. marylandblue Jul 2019 #65

No one seems to have a better idea. Impeachment Laura PourMeADrink Jul 2019 #79

why are his numbers rising? not_the_one Jul 2019 #39

His approvals are not falling because people think Laura PourMeADrink Jul 2019 #41

Red Dawn already said there's not going to be a 2020 election he's claims he's going to cheat uponit7771 Jul 2019 #48

Run a telethon! Russia interfered and Republicans will Laura PourMeADrink Jul 2019 #80

K&R... spanone Jul 2019 #9

From the guy who accused Senator Obama of launching the most racial base campaign grantcart Jul 2019 #10

Really? How's that going so far? Seriously. Trump Laura PourMeADrink Jul 2019 #12

Is her goal to make him lose 1 or 2 points in the polls today, or marylandblue Jul 2019 #17

Yes...to see SOME kind of downward trajectory Laura PourMeADrink Jul 2019 #18

BTW, he can win with 45% approval rating. Laura PourMeADrink Jul 2019 #19

Sure. But that's just his number for today. It's been bouncing between 40 and 45% marylandblue Jul 2019 #37

Holding Speaker Pelosi responsible for the current situation is among the more foolish points grantcart Jul 2019 #25

Thank you for taking the time to think through this and write it so eloquently StarfishSaver Jul 2019 #31

Impeachment IS our only weapon at this point. It is our Laura PourMeADrink Jul 2019 #32

I could not disagree more with your post, watoos Jul 2019 #62

Yes.. indeed thank you grantcart for your great post Thekaspervote Jul 2019 #184

Donald Trump can traffic 5 year olds on 5th avenue and not lose support uponit7771 Jul 2019 #49

+1000 Thekaspervote Jul 2019 #183

She has not taken impeachment off the table wryter2000 Jul 2019 #21

That has become ridiculous. It's been ages since Laura PourMeADrink Jul 2019 #23

I agree, watoos Jul 2019 #63

Exactly! No urgency, no immediacy. Gives or better stated Laura PourMeADrink Jul 2019 #70

If only we could do something, huh? watoos Jul 2019 #71

Another K & R Duppers Jul 2019 #26

"denying the reality of his transgressions"? When did that happen? CaptainTruth Jul 2019 #28

If she said she wants to see Trump in prison, watoos Jul 2019 #64

I don't give a damn what people are thinking now. LiberalFighter Jul 2019 #29

I'm hoping that the comments on Stephanie Miller this morning that it's like dflprincess Jul 2019 #36

People need to tune in to Sirius watoos Jul 2019 #66

I trust Pelosi's instincts more than anyone on this board-or any pundits who have northing to lose redstateblues Jul 2019 #38

Guess there's some valor to going down with the ship Laura PourMeADrink Jul 2019 #43

+1000 Thekaspervote Jul 2019 #185

DURec leftstreet Jul 2019 #42

Impeachment hearings should have been started months ago. Bluepinky Jul 2019 #44

That would have ended them to early maximum effect is during the election uponit7771 Jul 2019 #50

Impeachment does not remove Trump from office. To say that politics is not part of a decision redstateblues Jul 2019 #87

impeachment hearings need to occur first. Bluepinky Jul 2019 #150

I honestly can not understand why loyalty to our party's establishment is more important than democrank Jul 2019 #46

I think the thread is about impeachment stopdiggin Jul 2019 #53

The vote failed because it was based on Trump's racism, watoos Jul 2019 #67

I know exactly what the vote in the House was about, thank you. stopdiggin Jul 2019 #132

Thank you! Thekaspervote Jul 2019 #186

Who is displaying/demanding "loyalty to party establishment" *over* "doing what is right?" ehrnst Jul 2019 #93

Brilliantly put!!! +1,000,000 Laura PourMeADrink Jul 2019 #173

I stand with Speaker Pelosi BlueMississippi Jul 2019 #52

Individual 1 has been identified, watoos Jul 2019 #72

Senate Republicans will still not cross him by voting yes. ehrnst Jul 2019 #94

The Backfire effect will likely make them more willing to get to the polls ehrnst Jul 2019 #95

Impunity is not a good thing to teach our children cynara88 Jul 2019 #59

Interesting - I never knew that the job of Speaker of the House included ehrnst Jul 2019 #84

+1000 Thekaspervote Jul 2019 #187

"Who, me?" -- Alfred E. Neuman cynara88 Jul 2019 #188

Why is there no old lady emoji here?Don't worry, it's a rhetorical ? intended to buy a little mercy. cynara88 Jul 2019 #189

You're welcome. (nt) ehrnst Jul 2019 #199

Cynara88, you must know your claims are untrue that the Hortensis Jul 2019 #129

I beg to differ cynara88 Jul 2019 #148

There's more than one way to refuse to stand against evil, Hortensis Jul 2019 #149

Our voter power is also subject to attack cynara88 Jul 2019 #172

So, Dems suck because Trump isn't gone yet, & they all don't give a fuck, for some unknown reason. ehrnst Jul 2019 #198

Lol. "I know I ramble, but I have no self-control." Hortensis Jul 2019 #200

... where am I? cynara88 Jul 2019 #204

That last is too funny. I suspect younger family members Hortensis Jul 2019 #206

" be forced to shout it over the voices of our Dems. " ehrnst Jul 2019 #197

Another hit piece... Joe941 Jul 2019 #61

I agree Sunsky Jul 2019 #69

I stand with Speaker Pelosi Gothmog Jul 2019 #74

So, the Constitution be damned then, right? Moostache Jul 2019 #124

the best "strategy" is the ballot box stopdiggin Jul 2019 #142

Understand your point, but we will agree to disagree... Moostache Jul 2019 #145

don't discount the danger stopdiggin Jul 2019 #147

I think she knows clearly what she's doing duforsure Jul 2019 #75

I think Maxine Waters knows clearly what she's calling for, watoos Jul 2019 #76

Yes! Wonder how many are just not saying yes until Laura PourMeADrink Jul 2019 #81

That is totally bogus, watoos Jul 2019 #82

Yes. And they were trying to get it so Mueller staff Laura PourMeADrink Jul 2019 #85

I think that Pelosi has been selected by her peers including Rep. Waters for good reasons. ehrnst Jul 2019 #92

I trust Pelosi to know what is the best next move more than I do Sean Wilentz. ehrnst Jul 2019 #83

Yes...need more than the usual "I trust Nancy" and the Laura PourMeADrink Jul 2019 #86

Well, that's a third straw man... "Kill the messenger" ehrnst Jul 2019 #88

Pelosi is playing 3-dimensional chess. She knows what she's doing. nt zackymilly Jul 2019 #90

We will find out tomorrow if Madame Pelosi blew it Goodheart Jul 2019 #98

"Madame's own call for impeachment would have swung the population opinion plus the political action StarfishSaver Jul 2019 #99

I wouldn't have said it otherwise. Goodheart Jul 2019 #100

On what do you base that statement? ehrnst Jul 2019 #102

I bet Pelosi wishes she had the vast powers some people impute to her. StarfishSaver Jul 2019 #103

I know. She is at once "skittish and too scared to act" and "an all powerful bully ehrnst Jul 2019 #108

Yours is a false dichotomy. Goodheart Jul 2019 #111

Not really. Just read DU. Do you have that data or polls that support your claim about Pelosi ehrnst Jul 2019 #113

A few months ago, Pelosi needed to stay out of sight because so many people supposedly hated her, EffieBlack Jul 2019 #128

Like I said - I get whiplash sometimes. ehrnst Jul 2019 #130

I think that's the point EffieBlack Jul 2019 #131

"exquisitely manicured hand" melman Jul 2019 #144

History shows us that impeachment, itself, impacts public opinion. Goodheart Jul 2019 #109

So it's just a feeling you have then. ehrnst Jul 2019 #121

So, we're powerless to hold Trump accountable for his many high crimes and misdemeanors? ProfessionalLeft Jul 2019 #112

False dichotomy and a straw man. ehrnst Jul 2019 #120

What would be the metric for "Pelosi blowing it?" ehrnst Jul 2019 #101

If the calls for accountability abate in the wake of Mueller's testimony Goodheart Jul 2019 #106

Still not clear on what that means... ehrnst Jul 2019 #114

None of the failure of the PEOPLE would be HER doing. Hortensis Jul 2019 #116

Everyday citizens do not have that sort of power. Goodheart Jul 2019 #117

Who you seem to think have powers far beyond what they do, and they are simply ehrnst Jul 2019 #123

Don't think so. She has a lot of stars to line up, and tomorrow's Hortensis Jul 2019 #107

because Madame Speaker is SUCH a popular public figure .. stopdiggin Jul 2019 #146

Trump needs to be impeached and narrow victory for us in the 2020 Presidential race standingtall Jul 2019 #105

Yep, the long view for Democratic politicians seems to be the next election. Your scenario is KPN Jul 2019 #133

At the very least Madame Pelosi has done a really poor job establishing the POINT of these hearings. Goodheart Jul 2019 #115

Because if Pelosi says it publicly, the public that's not paying attention will suddenly start StarfishSaver Jul 2019 #134

Exactly EffieBlack Jul 2019 #138

A press conference... YES. Goodheart Jul 2019 #139

This standingtall Jul 2019 #141

No it wouldn't. Saw one quote from a Dem House Laura PourMeADrink Jul 2019 #175

You just made their point. Doesn't know what to do Laura PourMeADrink Jul 2019 #174

Sez who ? OnDoutside Jul 2019 #126

Impeachment without removal is a vain and useless act Gothmog Jul 2019 #140

Offset by the millions who will hear his crimes Laura PourMeADrink Jul 2019 #165

There will be no real trial in the senate Gothmog Jul 2019 #167

That's why I like Lawrence Tribe's idea....just come up Laura PourMeADrink Jul 2019 #176

Tribe's strategy stopdiggin Jul 2019 #182

trump will be able to claim vindication in any case and this could help him win reelection Gothmog Jul 2019 #202

Impeachment will help trump win re-election Gothmog Jul 2019 #203

Not with Lawrence Tribe's idea. Laura PourMeADrink Jul 2019 #205

Why not? trump will still claim vindication Gothmog Jul 2019 #207

Nancy Pelosi Doesn't Have The Votes To Impeach Trump Gothmog Jul 2019 #208