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unblock

(52,196 posts)
10. entirely the wrong solution to the stated problems.
Sun Sep 15, 2019, 01:34 PM
Sep 2019

the problems you list have to do with insufficient enforcement and corruption of the idea and goals of a progressive income tax to the benefit of the rich. rich people and their lobbyists and republican politicians have flattened the progressivity of the rates, figured out ways to have rich people income (like income from capital) be taxed at lower rates than ordinary people income (income from labor) and even let rich people disguise income from labor as income from capital (incentive stock options, e.g.) to get away with contributing even less.

the solution to that is not to ignore the corrupting actions of the rich and greedy and replace the structure of the tax system with something that on its face further benefits the rich at the expense of the poor and then to try to convince people that it will work because it somehow magically won't then be corrupted by the same forces you're conceding to now.


if the rich can corrupt the income tax system to favor them at the expense of the poor, they'll even more readily corrupt a sales tax system to benefit themselves at the expense of the poor.

so give me a break, i'm not buying for one minute that a sales tax would be a boon for the poor. as soon as or prior to a national sales tax is passed, the rich will get to work and eventually the things rich people buy will face a lower or zero sales tax (after all, executives need personal helicopters to create jobs) and poor people will have to pay taxes on more and more (food is exempt? oh, but that food has a tiny amount of sugar in it or was imported or whatever so it's not exempt).


income tax is not inherently problematic in terms of enforcement. the problem is we've let it evolve into a system where people can disguise or evade it more and more, at least if you're rich or a business. the solution to that is not to change what you tax, the solution is more and better enforcement and to change the rules so that it's harder to evade.

start by taxing all income the same whether it's from labor or capital. restore progressivity to the rates. hire many more irs auditors. require deductions to have much better documentation, e.g., it's not an expense unless it appears as income on someone else's taxes. that would make it much more enforceable, kinda like a value added tax except for income.


Are you suggesting a sales tax or a VAT as is commonly used in Europe? The Velveteen Ocelot Sep 2019 #1
I like the Fair Tax idea, combined with Elizabeth Warren's "wealth tax" Goodheart Sep 2019 #2
Ideologues frequently propose sudden sweeping changes, promising struggle4progress Sep 2019 #3
Were Social Security and Medicare championed by "idealogues"? Goodheart Sep 2019 #4
No, but Medicare was first proposed in the '40s The Velveteen Ocelot Sep 2019 #5
Every nation with a national sales tax also has an income tax jmowreader Sep 2019 #6
You need to understand the mechanisms of the Fair Tax a little better. Lochloosa Sep 2019 #9
I know that...another reason to be against it jmowreader Sep 2019 #14
Huh? It would do the OPPOSITE of that, just as I posted. Goodheart Sep 2019 #19
The "Fair Tax" is actually a 30% sales tax. Mariana Sep 2019 #28
If food and clothing were exempt (except alcohol and luxury clothing) it could work n/t Blaukraut Sep 2019 #7
It certainly could. Goodheart Sep 2019 #8
entirely the wrong solution to the stated problems. unblock Sep 2019 #10
Sales taxes in general are regressive so legislators have to build in some protections for the less CTyankee Sep 2019 #13
UUnfortunately, the tax structure you described above disproportionately affects really poor people intrepidity Sep 2019 #53
I am cognizant of this as my husband is the (volunteer) chairman of New Haven's Homeless CTyankee Sep 2019 #58
Enforcement is 1) too complicated 2) too expensive 3) too difficult 4) impossible. Goodheart Sep 2019 #15
sure, given how the tax code has been redesigned to be exactly that. unblock Sep 2019 #21
No. It harms the poor. ananda Sep 2019 #11
Yes, a National Sales Tax or a VAT would be simple and there would be no evasion... Girard442 Sep 2019 #12
There are very few loopholes in a sales tax Goodheart Sep 2019 #17
because the rich have eaten away at the income tax code and haven't done as much to the sale tax. unblock Sep 2019 #23
There is NO "simple" income tax code, period. Goodheart Sep 2019 #26
it didn't used to be so complicated unblock Sep 2019 #29
Au contraire... it was ALWAYS complicated Goodheart Sep 2019 #31
these rules can all be simplified greatly. unblock Sep 2019 #35
Other countries have completely automated their income tax systems. Voltaire2 Sep 2019 #40
If the sales tax rate is 30%, as the "Fair Tax" proposes Mariana Sep 2019 #43
You listed the loopholes in your OP muriel_volestrangler Sep 2019 #45
This message was self-deleted by its author NightWatcher Sep 2019 #16
Go back and read my post. Goodheart Sep 2019 #18
I don't mean this as an attack SCantiGOP Sep 2019 #20
Sales taxes are not regressive if they're not universally applied across all purchases. Goodheart Sep 2019 #22
a souffle is hard to cook properly, so let's just order a sh*tburger. unblock Sep 2019 #27
"the regressivity of a sales tax can vary depending on its implementation" Goodheart Sep 2019 #30
wrong. unblock Sep 2019 #32
Cement the income tax code with loopholes? Goodheart Sep 2019 #33
i said cement their victory, not cement the tax code. don't be obtuse. unblock Sep 2019 #37
Obviously, you haven't read or taken the time to understand my post. Goodheart Sep 2019 #46
how are equities taxed under a sales tax system? unblock Sep 2019 #51
Those sound like "Transaction" taxes intrepidity Sep 2019 #57
Your status quo notions are what's keeping wealth disparity growing. Goodheart Sep 2019 #24
This message was self-deleted by its author NightWatcher Sep 2019 #25
I agree in principle Disaffected Sep 2019 #34
A sales tax?....NEVER! A VAT tax?...maybe. paleotn Sep 2019 #36
"Sales taxes are not only the most regressive" Goodheart Sep 2019 #39
Fairness depends on how much of your income you spend. JohnnyRingo Sep 2019 #38
Too Ridiculous To Deserve A Cogent Response ProfessorGAC Sep 2019 #41
You're part of the reason, then, that wealth inequality keeps growing. Goodheart Sep 2019 #44
The problem with your OP SCantiGOP Sep 2019 #48
"you could not find a single credible economist to agree with your position." Goodheart Sep 2019 #50
My BA was in Economics SCantiGOP Sep 2019 #59
I suggest you look at a real example before going any further muriel_volestrangler Sep 2019 #49
Tax the rich's property holdings more. Mc Mike Sep 2019 #42
Part of the plan :) Goodheart Sep 2019 #47
You do a VAT on top of income tax. It pays for medicare for all. You do both. applegrove Sep 2019 #52
what about corporate taxes? Takket Sep 2019 #54
Probably will need BOTH to finance all the new social programs being proposed andym Sep 2019 #55
One thing to consider DFW Sep 2019 #56
Sounds like more "flat tax" claptrap... Wounded Bear Sep 2019 #60
A VAT does not harm corporate accountants, lots of complication remains Cicada Sep 2019 #61
No thanks. Mosby Sep 2019 #62
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