General Discussion

yawnmaster

(2,812 posts)

86. if you are talking capitalism, okay, but if you are talking about capital then a question...

Wed Sep 5, 2012, 08:37 PM

Sep 2012

how is labor able to create a complex tool without capital.
And by capital I do mean the fruits of labor that has been accumulated and saved, so that the labor needed to create a tool can be paid.

for instance, how does a fisherman pay for a boat? he needs to accumulate capital.
those who labor to create the boat require pay.
The boatbuilders need the axes and the planes to create the boat and need to accumulate capital to purchase these tools.
the toolmakers are in turn paid.
Capital, in part, is the ability to store, and yes accumulate what labor creates (in a real or abstract form such as money).

I think, though, that you are talking capitalism, as capital does not require "capitalists" (unless the fisherman is the capitalist because he accumulates capital to purchase a boat).

Edit history

Please sign in to view edit histories.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

98 replies

= new reply since forum marked as read

Highlight:

Does Labor need capital to exist? [View all] efhmc Sep 2012 OP

Labor is the source of capital. Labor existed before it and can exist without it Vincardog Sep 2012 #1

Then why are we in their control and not visa versa? efhmc Sep 2012 #5

We are brain washed into believing we need a job to get $ to buy the crap we see on TV. Vincardog Sep 2012 #6

I think that is only part of the answer. efhmc Sep 2012 #8

Financial transactions that create capital are financial masturbation. They do not create Vincardog Sep 2012 #10

So true. efhmc Sep 2012 #14

"Financial transactions that create capital are financial masturbation." annabanana Sep 2012 #42

Because PD Turk Sep 2012 #15

Sadly so many of us have never felt that wonderful efhmc Sep 2012 #20

We've taken it on the chin for the last 30 years PD Turk Sep 2012 #23

Can't do violence. What else you got? efhmc Sep 2012 #49

dunno PD Turk Sep 2012 #53

I have a deep unshakable faith in the desire of many people to do right and to help efhmc Sep 2012 #54

Because we're not unified. When workers compete with each other for jobs, wages plunge. reformist2 Sep 2012 #51

Nope htuttle Sep 2012 #2

Of course madville Sep 2012 #3

How Did Labor Fare Before 1800? On the Road Sep 2012 #4

By that statement, I think you mean people who are without salaried jobs. efhmc Sep 2012 #7

What is labor going to labor on SickOfTheOnePct Sep 2012 #9

Bartering labor or self sustaining work don't need capital. efhmc Sep 2012 #11

Excellent point, thank you n/t SickOfTheOnePct Sep 2012 #17

Take a stick, carve it into an ax handle. You have created "Wealth". Take capital what does it Vincardog Sep 2012 #12

Fair enough SickOfTheOnePct Sep 2012 #16

"Capital" is accumulated LABOR. I was demonstrating the difference between creating wealth Vincardog Sep 2012 #26

Then why have we become so divorced from the power of efhmc Sep 2012 #18

The capitalists have rigged the game. We can take our power back. Just do it. Vincardog Sep 2012 #24

Tried and failed many places but should still keep going. efhmc Sep 2012 #34

They are the only ones who can win when you play their game by their rules. Vincardog Sep 2012 #39

What exactly does that entail? efhmc Sep 2012 #46

Where did you get the knife to carve the stick? eom yawnmaster Sep 2012 #58

From another laborer. ronnie624 Sep 2012 #60

how was the foundry for the knife's steel built without capital? yawnmaster Sep 2012 #62

Are you unwilling or unable to see the point? Vincardog Sep 2012 #63

No I am trying to either support or not support the point with my example... yawnmaster Sep 2012 #64

It is an iron/stone/onyx knife. What is your point? Vincardog Sep 2012 #65

The point is, that it takes capital to move beyond stone knives and bearskins... yawnmaster Sep 2012 #66

Your point is that civilization is built on the work of previous generations? Thank Vincardog Sep 2012 #67

No, that it takes capital to build infrastructure, it has nothing to do with previous generations... yawnmaster Sep 2012 #68

Snark won't feed the baby, The OP asked if Labor needed Capital to exist. It takes LABOR Vincardog Sep 2012 #69

and you need capital to build any infrastructure to build anything beyond a stone knife... yawnmaster Sep 2012 #70

Does Labor need Capital to exist? No it does not. You seem to be arguing that YES- Labor only Vincardog Sep 2012 #72

where would the money come to pay the labor to rebuild more capital? yawnmaster Sep 2012 #75

You are not arguing anything. Have fun down the rabbit hole by your self. Vincardog Sep 2012 #80

not surprising... yawnmaster Sep 2012 #83

Capital is just a medium of exchange. It's stored labor. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #71

But with your own reply here, without capital the fisherman would never get a boat... yawnmaster Sep 2012 #77

No, it only simplifies what would otherwise be a complex barter transaction. nt lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #78

It is complex to the point of being virtually impossible in any general sense... yawnmaster Sep 2012 #79

If by "capital" you mean land & resources, nothing. If by "capital" you mean "wealthy investors," HiPointDem Sep 2012 #56

By capital, I mean money. efhmc Sep 2012 #74

No, do you need crabs? rug Sep 2012 #13

Labor is the process of transforming a world into the usable and the pleasurable alcibiades_mystery Sep 2012 #19

A powerful and enlightening answer. efhmc Sep 2012 #21

Or as Balzac famously put it: "Behind every great fortune lies a great coalition_unwilling Sep 2012 #22

+1 HiPointDem Sep 2012 #57

if you are talking capitalism, okay, but if you are talking about capital then a question... yawnmaster Sep 2012 #86

No, people could just work for free slackmaster Sep 2012 #25

My question is if one can exist without the other and history efhmc Sep 2012 #29

They feed each other. Without both it wouldn't be possible to manufacture complex machines. slackmaster Sep 2012 #38

Interesting but without labor, none of these machines would even need to exist. efhmc Sep 2012 #50

Without capital we'd be in an agricultural economy. Without labor there would be no economy. slackmaster Sep 2012 #59

I am going to quote a Republican to answer this standingtall Sep 2012 #27

Welcome and thanks for the very pertinent quote. efhmc Sep 2012 #33

+1 - nicely done. nt TBF Sep 2012 #61

All capital comes from labor. bemildred Sep 2012 #28

Standingtall's quote from Lincoln says it very well. efhmc Sep 2012 #30

All of society is a social construct, so to speak. "We built it." bemildred Sep 2012 #35

But the repukes' idea is the Ayn Rand ideal, with reality nowhere to be seen. efhmc Sep 2012 #36

Indeed. bemildred Sep 2012 #37

Except the poster left off the next sentences. former9thward Sep 2012 #81

Not really necessary. Zalatix Sep 2012 #93

Lincoln thought they were necessary. former9thward Sep 2012 #94

Listen to what I really said. Zalatix Sep 2012 #95

I understand what you said. former9thward Sep 2012 #96

Let's ask honest Abe! lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #31

Thanks for the quote. efhmc Sep 2012 #32

I like this Lincoln quote as well: just1voice Sep 2012 #40

+1 n/t lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #41

If you are going to be accurate you should add the two sentences that he followed your quote. former9thward Sep 2012 #87

I do like the rest of his address to congress, particularly this... yawnmaster Sep 2012 #88

No. Starry Messenger Sep 2012 #43

This thread NEEDS recs! Very informative. annabanana Sep 2012 #44

it helps arely staircase Sep 2012 #45

Labor exists outside of capital mythology Sep 2012 #47

Well said. efhmc Sep 2012 #48

In the modern world, Labor does need Capital. reformist2 Sep 2012 #52

Of course, but that does not mean that labor needs capitalism. David__77 Sep 2012 #55

No. Capital is the stored value of labor, and is only necessary to facilitate transactions. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #73

K&R Most of the reasons it doesn't have already been written above. n/t Egalitarian Thug Sep 2012 #76

Labor is real. Capital is imaginary. hunter Sep 2012 #82

capital isn't quite imaginary. It is, though, an abstract concept. yawnmaster Sep 2012 #84

Let me show you where your model fails... hunter Sep 2012 #89

They are capital even when not used... yawnmaster Sep 2012 #90

Capital is useless without labor. Labor does not need capital to exist, but... yawnmaster Sep 2012 #85

Money is a marker, it is not a "fruit of labor." hunter Sep 2012 #91

Fruits of labor are converted to money so that the fruits can be accumulated... yawnmaster Sep 2012 #92

I disagree. hunter Sep 2012 #97

society is created by humans by their very human nature... yawnmaster Sep 2012 #98