General Discussion

H2O Man

(78,993 posts)

34. In general, the court orders

Sun Dec 22, 2019, 03:17 PM

Dec 2019

are to follow the recommendations of a counselor or therapist. That recommendation can include any number of things, such as in-patient treatment, 12-step programs, and/or ongoing appointments with the counselor/ therapist. Due to the comorbidity of addiction/ substance abuse and mental illness, it could include evaluation by a psychiatrist or psychologist.

12-step and related programs can be helpful to a significant number of people. But that does not translate well for everyone, of course, for a wide variety of reasons. And they tend to have less success with people who are court-ordered, which includes an order to follow the recommendations of the counselor/ therapist.

It's interesting to note that the first AA program was not started by "Bill," but by the Iroquois leader Handsome Lake in 1798. Likewise, in the 1960s and early '70s, the Nation of Islam had the highest success rate for dealing with addiction (including heroin use).

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This message was self-deleted by its author [View all] OhNo-Really Dec 2019 OP

There is a simple reason many have strong negative opinions about AA SCantiGOP Dec 2019 #1

AA has a subgroup for atheists, or for those who just don't want to bring God into it. Aristus Dec 2019 #4

not really SCantiGOP Dec 2019 #8

AA doesn't work for all. Even for those who do believe in God. Kaleva Dec 2019 #12

How did you succeed? OhNo-Really Dec 2019 #21

I just got sick of the taste and quit cold turkey. Kaleva Dec 2019 #106

You are truly one of the lucky stars. So happy for you 💕 OhNo-Really Dec 2019 #111

It saved me,38 years ago. virgogal Dec 2019 #88

Wonderful! Merry Christmas ✨✨❤️ OhNo-Really Dec 2019 #94

It has saved a number of people. I don't knock AA Kaleva Dec 2019 #107

I'm glad you did. Dorian Gray Dec 2019 #186

This message was self-deleted by its author Nature Man Dec 2019 #29

You can't keep the concept of powerlessness out of it, and that's what many object to. pnwmom Dec 2019 #69

Addiction is a power. The group power can help overcome the temptation of addiction OhNo-Really Dec 2019 #112

But AA isn't the only group and its practices aren't the only practices. pnwmom Dec 2019 #113

Of course it isn't. It's just a worldwide 24/7 one OhNo-Really Dec 2019 #124

I'm glad that worked for your relative. Sobriety isn't easy, Dorian Gray Dec 2019 #187

Me, too. An older relative swore by AA, but the young one just couldn't connect with it. pnwmom Dec 2019 #196

Diarrhea is a power Nature Man Dec 2019 #121

The power of logorrhea aside, I do hope you found something that works for you, personally. Hekate Dec 2019 #147

Sorry (IMHO) Timewas Dec 2019 #73

So right for so many addicts. OhNo-Really Dec 2019 #84

I think that a lot of resistance to AA is from people who don't want to drink Dorian Gray Dec 2019 #188

Agreed Timewas Dec 2019 #195

That kind of argument leaves me cold. Igel Dec 2019 #91

Well said! OhNo-Really Dec 2019 #102

More like, "Caveat Emptor" Nature Man Dec 2019 #127

It's free to all. Active addicts sometimes lack discernment OhNo-Really Dec 2019 #137

Where, exactly, did the poster imply that AA shouldn't exist? nt. Mariana Dec 2019 #171

It's "higher power" and for those who aren't religious, higher power is AA LeftInTX Dec 2019 #159

There's also other reasons Major Nikon Dec 2019 #173

Who makes those claims? Dorian Gray Dec 2019 #189

I already told you. AA makes those claims. Major Nikon Dec 2019 #194

You don't have a problem with alcohol so you go with a closed mind and negativity towards AA. Were demosincebirth Dec 2019 #184

The religious aspect of it triggers fescuerescue Dec 2019 #2

Glad you mentioned the triggering aspect. Lars39 Dec 2019 #58

The poster calls those people "non-religious fundys" [sic] and "extremist" [sic]. Mariana Dec 2019 #172

Yes. They expect and demand conformity. Lars39 Dec 2019 #174

I would have no problem with it if it weren't state-mandated. X_Digger Dec 2019 #63

A professional addresses this issue below. There is a choice OhNo-Really Dec 2019 #77

A professional addresses this issue below. There is a choice OhNo-Really Dec 2019 #78

"Take what you want" isn't what AA says jmowreader Dec 2019 #110

Read comments from The addicts AA saved. OhNo-Really Dec 2019 #135

personal comments are anecdotal evidence Nature Man Dec 2019 #136

Good point. Although attributing 17+ years of sobriety to AA is a tad more than "casual" OhNo-Really Dec 2019 #141

Back up for a second jmowreader Dec 2019 #175

Depends on the locality. There are courts today, that only allow AA. (Because it's free.) X_Digger Dec 2019 #148

YES Timewas Dec 2019 #90

Affordable is a word needed as well OhNo-Really Dec 2019 #151

Thank you for defending AA so well. As the child of an alcoholic who had stayed sober Atticus Dec 2019 #3

Agree...The Serenity Prayer" is simple, and easy to know and understand... Stuart G Dec 2019 #81

When a court requires you to enroll in a religious program, there is a problem jberryhill Dec 2019 #5

AA isn't a religious program ismnotwasm Dec 2019 #7

This message was self-deleted by its author Nature Man Dec 2019 #30

AA is absolutely a religious program. bitterross Dec 2019 #51

Similarly, failings of AA are like failings of religion. X_Digger Dec 2019 #67

Exactly! "You didn't work your program hard enough." bitterross Dec 2019 #158

Thank you for your post. SunSeeker Dec 2019 #83

No, it isn't ismnotwasm Dec 2019 #101

Awesome comment. Thank you OhNo-Really Dec 2019 #114

It's kind of a concept ismnotwasm Dec 2019 #130

Thank you! I have someone to share your story with. OhNo-Really Dec 2019 #143

Sounds like my son's group! LeftInTX Dec 2019 #164

I beg to differ and so do the courts. bitterross Dec 2019 #160

Good post... SidDithers Dec 2019 #117

Those last three paragraphs should be required reading Bradshaw3 Dec 2019 #155

Not familiar with court order laws OhNo-Really Dec 2019 #9

In general, the court orders H2O Man Dec 2019 #34

The whole history is interesting as is the structure ismnotwasm Dec 2019 #37

Very interesting. H2O Man Dec 2019 #49

Excellent addition. Thank you! OhNo-Really Dec 2019 #68

AA is the original CBT. Comatose Sphagetti Dec 2019 #99

Thank you! Found an interesting link. Anti-AA began around 1994 OhNo-Really Dec 2019 #71

"Stay in your lane." Igel Dec 2019 #95

😂😂😂"..there's no room for civil society..". Spit coffee laugh. You surprised me OhNo-Really Dec 2019 #98

That seems to be more of a problem with the judges then with AA itself. Kaleva Dec 2019 #13

and there are medical treatments like Naltrexone which are used in other countries dawg day Dec 2019 #19

Well said. Chantix is helping with smoking addiction OhNo-Really Dec 2019 #22

My wife, who rarely cries, could not stop crying when she was taking rzemanfl Dec 2019 #48

That is interesting. Some smoking-cessation treatment is the same as an antidepressant- dawg day Dec 2019 #57

Yes, I've heard of different reactions OhNo-Really Dec 2019 #61

My husband is an addict and alcoholic Bluesaph Dec 2019 #41

That's a beautiful testament. Thank you bluesaph. erronis Dec 2019 #66

AA teaches powerlessness over alcohol specifically Nature Man Dec 2019 #125

Yup. Knew a guy who failed rehab 2x, AA a few more times. Antabuse did the trick Arazi Dec 2019 #64

Those are good for crises. Igel Dec 2019 #96

When I was asked to sign the attendance slips for court, I hesitated irisblue Dec 2019 #38

Exactly. n/t X_Digger Dec 2019 #65

A friend of mine, sober for over 40 years, says majdrfrtim Dec 2019 #70

Good for him jberryhill Dec 2019 #100

I was under the distinct impression that AA PoindexterOglethorpe Dec 2019 #6

We are all 100% in control. OhNo-Really Dec 2019 #16

Zealots prey on people's weaknesses Nature Man Dec 2019 #31

Yes they do. Some pray & prey OhNo-Really Dec 2019 #36

AA says "take what you want and leave the rest." rzemanfl Dec 2019 #17

This. Iggo Dec 2019 #27

Except when you get shamed and "love-bombed" Nature Man Dec 2019 #126

As I read thru this thread & your contributions, it is clear you despise AA. Can you at least... Hekate Dec 2019 #156

You are projecting Nature Man Dec 2019 #179

Not hardly Hekate Dec 2019 #180

So. Nature Man Dec 2019 #181

Speaking as one who has 2 family members (in other parts of the country) who are... SWBTATTReg Dec 2019 #203

Alcoholism runs on my mom's side of the family: her dad, one brother, one sister, is a fair sample. Hekate Dec 2019 #209

"...psychological, financial, and sexual predators..." Iggo Dec 2019 #176

AA is unique Nature Man Dec 2019 #178

You just described a shit-ton of support groups that are not AA. Iggo Dec 2019 #182

people in crisis are easy prey Nature Man Dec 2019 #183

sexual predators abound.... Dorian Gray Dec 2019 #191

AA is free LeftInTX Dec 2019 #161

Do you feel like you are an addict? Dorian Gray Dec 2019 #190

I have known atheists who AA helped. It's having support of others that seems to help. Hoyt Dec 2019 #10

Agree 100%. Thank you. Ppl have to do the work the OhNo-Really Dec 2019 #11

Yes. Spme atheists are helped by it but some are deeply opposed OregonBlue Dec 2019 #14

In the 1980s in Connecticut, 2nd DUI was 1 year in jail! OhNo-Really Dec 2019 #18

Success rate is very low. On the other hand, every success is a gift to be celebrated. OregonBlue Dec 2019 #197

Perhaps there's a third alternative OhNo-Really Dec 2019 #198

Sober 40 years. Thank God for AA. demosincebirth Dec 2019 #15

Thank you so much & SO Happy for you 👏❤️ OhNo-Really Dec 2019 #20

One of the traditions we have in AA is " we have no opinions demosincebirth Dec 2019 #177

Wonderful to hear Dorian Gray Dec 2019 #192

I've been to AA meetings and I'm an Atheist. The God shit didn't bother me. nt UniteFightBack Dec 2019 #23

Yes, If you want to quit.. McKim Dec 2019 #85

So happy for you! Thank you for commenting and giving hope to others OhNo-Really Dec 2019 #134

Some people rebel against the belief that it's the only way Orangepeel Dec 2019 #24

somebody FINALLY nailed it! stopdiggin Dec 2019 #72

Yes, people that AA has helped regain their lives from the tyranny of alcoholism are eager to share OhNo-Really Dec 2019 #82

If you quit on your own Nature Man Dec 2019 #118

Interesting. I take it you've had some bad experiences ismnotwasm Dec 2019 #142

Not so much a bad experience Nature Man Dec 2019 #144

AA has helped millions to stay clean/sober. My take on the higher power is that no one involved with jalan48 Dec 2019 #25

It's fueled by court systems mandating Phoenix61 Dec 2019 #26

Look around, "In God We Trust" is freaking everywhere. "Under god" rzemanfl Dec 2019 #40

AA began decades ago, long before court mandates. It's free to all OhNo-Really Dec 2019 #44

which does not excuse the court stopdiggin Dec 2019 #80

I'll defer to the comments in this stream written by sober AA atheists/agnostics proponents OhNo-Really Dec 2019 #105

Hanging out with sober people makes it easier to stay sober. Iggo Dec 2019 #28

It does. Good post. n/t rzemanfl Dec 2019 #43

Agnostic with 17+ years sober through AA. Comatose Sphagetti Dec 2019 #32

This is exactly right. tymorial Dec 2019 #35

That's me, with almost 30 years ismnotwasm Dec 2019 #39

Great story. Thank you. Merry Christmas 🎄 OhNo-Really Dec 2019 #109

+1. n/t rzemanfl Dec 2019 #42

May I add your comment at the beginning of the article? OhNo-Really Dec 2019 #46

Please do. Comatose Sphagetti Dec 2019 #76

Thank you ✨💕✨ OhNo-Really Dec 2019 #79

I strongly support AA and NA. tymorial Dec 2019 #33

AA forces you to admit you have no control over your addiction applegrove Dec 2019 #45

No no no. Good grief. Read comments above from those that AA has helped OhNo-Really Dec 2019 #47

You stopped reading at "forces", huh. Iggo Dec 2019 #54

Sober 30 years. One year in AA. Triloon Dec 2019 #50

The higher power can be nature or the spaghetti monster. Just so long applegrove Dec 2019 #56

AA can't force anyone to do anything. Kaleva Dec 2019 #52

But if someone is powerless, defeated, and incapable of anything until they do 90 in 90 Nature Man Dec 2019 #138

People tackle AA in all sorts of different ways. Dorian Gray Dec 2019 #193

There's this: An Atheist's Guide to 12-Step Recovery OhNo-Really Dec 2019 #59

That last sentence ... Geechie Dec 2019 #53

I agree 100%. No judgement, no pretense, no pressure OhNo-Really Dec 2019 #115

Is there a difference between those who drink too much and those who are physically addicted? Buckeyeblue Dec 2019 #55

Is there a difference between those who can't stop and those who can? Iggo Dec 2019 #62

I get there is a difference but are they lumped in the same category together? Buckeyeblue Dec 2019 #87

Nope. One's addicts and one ain't. Iggo Dec 2019 #93

The Big Book suggests going without drinking for 30 days to make that decision catrose Dec 2019 #166

The test: Is/are alcohol/drugs negatively affecting the quality of yours or others lives? OhNo-Really Dec 2019 #122

AA is more about the support from others. That's what helps. YOHABLO Dec 2019 #60

So it's like Weight Watchers meetings? nt SunSeeker Dec 2019 #86

Never been to a WW meeting. But people share their experiences. YOHABLO Dec 2019 #89

I got started in Overeaters Anonymous, then AA. Stuart G Dec 2019 #74

Thank you! Yes addiction kills & robs OhNo-Really Dec 2019 #163

Vodka sales must be down. MyNameGoesHere Dec 2019 #75

My two cents TlalocW Dec 2019 #92

"they convince you that you're lame, and then offer you a crutch."... SidDithers Dec 2019 #120

I prefer comments from recovered addicts quite frankly OhNo-Really Dec 2019 #201

+1000 smirkymonkey Dec 2019 #207

AA good program marieo1 Dec 2019 #97

Just eliminate the GOD bullshit, problem solved! nt USALiberal Dec 2019 #103

AA has one of the worst success rates of any rehab program Aquaria Dec 2019 #104

BINGO Nature Man Dec 2019 #119

Well said... SidDithers Dec 2019 #123

AA wrote in 1935 that there was a difference between heavy drinkers and alcohol use disorder ismnotwasm Dec 2019 #131

Let's hear from the addicts AA helps. People. OhNo-Really Dec 2019 #132

You're sounding like an evangelist decrying all the people prayer helped. X_Digger Dec 2019 #152

Thanks for the research and stats Bradshaw3 Dec 2019 #157

AA is 12 step program that requires adherence to its orthodoxy. YOHABLO Dec 2019 #165

I totally disagree with ..."a 12 step program that requires adherence to its orhodoxy" Stuart G Dec 2019 #169

FYI, there is Smart Recovery, which is not religious or spiritual TexasBushwhacker Dec 2019 #108

It's good that addicts have choices. OhNo-Really Dec 2019 #128

Cool! LeftInTX Dec 2019 #162

"The Small Book" is a good primer on the Smart Recovery principles TexasBushwhacker Dec 2019 #167

"Believe it if you need it... or leave it if you dare..." jcgoldie Dec 2019 #116

Rehab industry wouldn't exist without The Program Nature Man Dec 2019 #129

April 8, 1992 stillcool Dec 2019 #133

Fantastic. Merry Christmas 🎄 OhNo-Really Dec 2019 #154

Thank you. Your last sentence is the real kicker for me. Rehab is hellishly expensive. AA is free... Hekate Dec 2019 #139

There are prices to pay in life Nature Man Dec 2019 #140

A family member is more than 20 years sober with AA liberalguilt57 Dec 2019 #145

AA targets more than problem drinking; yortsed snacilbuper Dec 2019 #146

I can't recall any AAers who didn't accept all the medical help they could afford catrose Dec 2019 #168

I can't understand why it's being set up as AA vs. anything catrose Dec 2019 #170

I'm glad you're happy in AA. Arthur_Frain Dec 2019 #149

AA is OK Skittles Dec 2019 #150

we haven't had one of these threads in a while. Kali Dec 2019 #153

AA is a wonderful tool in an arsenal Dorian Gray Dec 2019 #185

Profiteers are stealing and trying to monetize the AA program live love laugh Dec 2019 #199

You are correct. $25k/month is a huge Greed incentive OhNo-Really Dec 2019 #200

My grandfather was a member back when it was still a "Fellowship" snpsmom Dec 2019 #202

I think there are people who are critical about most things.... Upthevibe Dec 2019 #204

It personally never worked out for me JonLP24 Dec 2019 #205

One modern addiction treatment/methodology is CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy.) Comatose Sphagetti Dec 2019 #206

Now sober for 30 years. A.A. was a terrific support group for me for 10+ years. SharonAnn Dec 2019 #208