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In reply to the discussion: This message was self-deleted by its author [View all]Aquaria
(1,076 posts)104. AA has one of the worst success rates of any rehab program
In his recent book, The Sober Truth: Debunking the Bad Science Behind 12-Step Programs and the Rehab Industry, Lance Dodes, a retired psychiatry professor from Harvard Medical School, looked at Alcoholics Anonymouss retention rates along with studies on sobriety and rates of active involvement (attending meetings regularly and working the program) among AA members. Based on these data, he put AAs actual success rate somewhere between 5 and 8 percent. That is just a rough estimate, but its the most precise one Ive been able to find.
<snip>
A meticulous analysis of treatments, published more than a decade ago in The Handbook of Alcoholism Treatment Approaches but still considered one of the most comprehensive comparisons, ranks AA 38th out of 48 methods. At the top of the list are brief interventions by a medical professional; motivational enhancement, a form of counseling that aims to help people see the need to change; and acamprosate, a drug that eases cravings. (An oft-cited 1996 study found 12-step facilitationa form of individual therapy that aims to get the patient to attend AA meetingsas effective as cognitive behavioral therapy and motivational interviewing. But that study, called Project Match, was widely criticized for scientific failings, including the lack of a control group.)
<snip>
If a heart medication had a 5-8% success rate, was ranked in the bottom quarter of medications for efficacy, and its most positive finding was based on junk science, it would never make it to the market. So why rely on a methodology that fails on so many fronts?
If that's not enough, AA does effectively nothing to address several core issues driving alcohol dependence:
People with alcohol problems also suffer from higher-than-normal rates of mental-health issues, and research has shown that treating depression and anxiety with medication can reduce drinking. But AA is not equipped to address these issuesit is a support group whose leaders lack professional trainingand some meetings are more accepting than others of the idea that members may need therapy and/or medication in addition to the groups help.
Worse, most of the tenets they base their scam on aren't based on any reliable data:
Whereas AA teaches that alcoholism is a progressive disease that follows an inevitable trajectory, data from a federally funded survey called the National Epidemiological Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions show that nearly one-fifth of those who have had alcohol dependence go on to drink at low-risk levels with no symptoms of abuse. And a recent survey of nearly 140,000 adults by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found that nine out of 10 heavy drinkers are not dependent on alcohol and, with the help of a medical professionals brief intervention, can change unhealthy habits.
We once thought about drinking problems in binary termsyou either had control or you didnt; you were an alcoholic or you werentbut experts now describe a spectrum. An estimated 18 million Americans suffer from alcohol-use disorder, as the DSM-5, the latest edition of the American Psychiatric Associations diagnostic manual, calls it.
<snip>
Only about 15 percent of those with alcohol-use disorder are at the severe end of the spectrum. The rest fall somewhere in the mild-to-moderate range, but they have been largely ignored by researchers and clinicians. Both groupsthe hard-core abusers and the more moderate overdrinkersneed more-individualized treatment options.
Worse, other countries approach addiction treatment differently--and with far higher success rates. And if that's not enough, they do it more cheaply! They routinely use opioid antagonists like naltrexone and nalmefene in their treatment programs. Both medications have an excellent track record (read: scientific data) in helping addicts overcome addiction. Their success is far--FAR--higher than AA could even dream of:
The Finns are famously private, so I had to go early in the morning, before any patients arrived, to meet Jukka Keski-Pukkila, the CEO<of Contral Clinics, a well-known rehab center in Europe>. He poured coffee and showed me around the clinic, in downtown Helsinki. The most common course of treatment involves six months of cognitive behavioral therapy, a goal-oriented form of therapy, with a clinical psychologist. Treatment typically also includes a physical exam, blood work, and a prescription for naltrexone or nalmefene, a newer opioid antagonist approved in more than two dozen countries. When I asked how much all of this cost, Keski-Pukkila looked uneasy. Well, he told me, its 2,000 euros. Thats about $2,500a fraction of the cost of inpatient rehab in the United States, which routinely runs in the tens of thousands of dollars for a 28-day stay.
When I told Keski-Pukkila this, his eyes grew wide. What are they doing for that money? he asked. I listed some of the treatments offered at top-of-the-line rehab centers: equine therapy, art therapy, mindfulness mazes in the desert. That doesnt sound scientific, he said, perplexed. I didnt mention that some bare-bones facilities charge as much as $40,000 a month and offer no treatment beyond AA sessions led by minimally qualified counselors.
Not very scientific, indeed. We are a fricking Third World nation when it comes to addressing addiction, and it shows.
Read more here, at the source for all of the above quotes:
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/04/the-irrationality-of-alcoholics-anonymous/386255/
If AA worked, it would not have a single-digit success rate. If they had any integrity, they would own up to their failure, rather than blaming the addicts for not succeeding in their scam program. They certainly wouldn't be so fucking stupid as to trash other addiction methodologies, when theirs is one of the worst around.
Other countries have better ways of treating addiction, based on science. It's time to listen to them for what works, rather than relying on ridiculous shame-based, religio-wacko nonsense.
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AA has a subgroup for atheists, or for those who just don't want to bring God into it.
Aristus
Dec 2019
#4
You can't keep the concept of powerlessness out of it, and that's what many object to.
pnwmom
Dec 2019
#69
Addiction is a power. The group power can help overcome the temptation of addiction
OhNo-Really
Dec 2019
#112
Me, too. An older relative swore by AA, but the young one just couldn't connect with it.
pnwmom
Dec 2019
#196
The power of logorrhea aside, I do hope you found something that works for you, personally.
Hekate
Dec 2019
#147
I think that a lot of resistance to AA is from people who don't want to drink
Dorian Gray
Dec 2019
#188
You don't have a problem with alcohol so you go with a closed mind and negativity towards AA. Were
demosincebirth
Dec 2019
#184
The poster calls those people "non-religious fundys" [sic] and "extremist" [sic].
Mariana
Dec 2019
#172
Good point. Although attributing 17+ years of sobriety to AA is a tad more than "casual"
OhNo-Really
Dec 2019
#141
Depends on the locality. There are courts today, that only allow AA. (Because it's free.)
X_Digger
Dec 2019
#148
Thank you for defending AA so well. As the child of an alcoholic who had stayed sober
Atticus
Dec 2019
#3
When a court requires you to enroll in a religious program, there is a problem
jberryhill
Dec 2019
#5
😂😂😂"..there's no room for civil society..". Spit coffee laugh. You surprised me
OhNo-Really
Dec 2019
#98
and there are medical treatments like Naltrexone which are used in other countries
dawg day
Dec 2019
#19
That is interesting. Some smoking-cessation treatment is the same as an antidepressant-
dawg day
Dec 2019
#57
As I read thru this thread & your contributions, it is clear you despise AA. Can you at least...
Hekate
Dec 2019
#156
Speaking as one who has 2 family members (in other parts of the country) who are...
SWBTATTReg
Dec 2019
#203
Alcoholism runs on my mom's side of the family: her dad, one brother, one sister, is a fair sample.
Hekate
Dec 2019
#209
I have known atheists who AA helped. It's having support of others that seems to help.
Hoyt
Dec 2019
#10
Success rate is very low. On the other hand, every success is a gift to be celebrated.
OregonBlue
Dec 2019
#197
I've been to AA meetings and I'm an Atheist. The God shit didn't bother me. nt
UniteFightBack
Dec 2019
#23
Yes, people that AA has helped regain their lives from the tyranny of alcoholism are eager to share
OhNo-Really
Dec 2019
#82
AA has helped millions to stay clean/sober. My take on the higher power is that no one involved with
jalan48
Dec 2019
#25
I'll defer to the comments in this stream written by sober AA atheists/agnostics proponents
OhNo-Really
Dec 2019
#105
But if someone is powerless, defeated, and incapable of anything until they do 90 in 90
Nature Man
Dec 2019
#138
Is there a difference between those who drink too much and those who are physically addicted?
Buckeyeblue
Dec 2019
#55
I get there is a difference but are they lumped in the same category together?
Buckeyeblue
Dec 2019
#87
The Big Book suggests going without drinking for 30 days to make that decision
catrose
Dec 2019
#166
The test: Is/are alcohol/drugs negatively affecting the quality of yours or others lives?
OhNo-Really
Dec 2019
#122
AA wrote in 1935 that there was a difference between heavy drinkers and alcohol use disorder
ismnotwasm
Dec 2019
#131
I totally disagree with ..."a 12 step program that requires adherence to its orhodoxy"
Stuart G
Dec 2019
#169
Thank you. Your last sentence is the real kicker for me. Rehab is hellishly expensive. AA is free...
Hekate
Dec 2019
#139
I can't recall any AAers who didn't accept all the medical help they could afford
catrose
Dec 2019
#168
One modern addiction treatment/methodology is CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy.)
Comatose Sphagetti
Dec 2019
#206
Now sober for 30 years. A.A. was a terrific support group for me for 10+ years.
SharonAnn
Dec 2019
#208