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Hermit-The-Prog

(33,331 posts)
30. no it is not possible
Fri Jan 17, 2020, 11:09 PM
Jan 2020

I am not talking about the type of verification you may have learned about in CS. None of the examples you give are election systems.

With paper ballots (physical tokens):

* Paper ballots allow the voter to verify that the ballot represents the voter's vote.

* The general public can verify that the voter cast a ballot, without having to know the vote.

* The general public can verify that the paper ballots are not tampered with while waiting to be counted.

* The general public can observe and verify the count of the ballots.

In electronic voting (abstractions, not physical tokens):

- The voter cannot verify that the internal state of the device represents the voter's vote. (This is true no matter how many pre-election or post-election tests are performed on the device).

- The general public cannot observe or verify that the voter cast a ballot. (The electorate has a critical, prime responsibility to observe and verify this).

- The general public cannot observe or verify the (abstract, invisible, electronic) ballots are true to the forms (state) they were in when cast.

- The general public cannot observe or verify the (invisible, electronic) count of the (abstract, invisible, electronic) ballots.

Elections are far more important than the check-out line at the grocery store, bank or Amazon. Verification is needed by the individual voter, by the rest of the electorate, and by the general public while still maintaining a secret ballot. Physical tokens that human beings can perceive are required.

K&R for visibility. nt tblue37 Jan 2020 #1
Know who was a professor in Political Science at Kennesaw State for years? Newt Gingrich hlthe2b Jan 2020 #2
I believe votes were changed. Kingofalldems Jan 2020 #3
In several states, as I said the DAY AFTER the election to anyone who would listen Eliot Rosewater Jan 2020 #26
+1000000000000! (The ! means 'factorial', mighty big number) triron Jan 2020 #31
whoever our nominee is, they need to be ready to demand a hand count! questionseverything Jan 2020 #34
They were - in many states - especially swing states. Exit polls proved this. ElementaryPenguin Jan 2020 #35
Vulnerable for six months? lpbk2713 Jan 2020 #4
wiped clean was under Brian Kemp* watch as Sect of State RT Atlanta Jan 2020 #5
The same people who were willing to use dogs and lynchings to stop POC from voting... lostnfound Jan 2020 #6
I fear that this is going to keep happening. I have no idea what Maraya1969 Jan 2020 #7
Feel the same way here bluestarone Jan 2020 #8
Plaintiffs include coalitionforgoodgovernance.org -- very effective organization diva77 Jan 2020 #9
Every real computer expert who's been asked says electronic voting & tabulation machines snot Jan 2020 #10
+1,000,000 THIS!!!!!!! diva77 Jan 2020 #11
The fact! defacto7 Jan 2020 #12
I have a masters degree in Computer Science and worked as a System Administrator patphil Jan 2020 #14
+1 llmart Jan 2020 #17
if you have to have special expertease to verify the vote it is still a trust system,non democratic questionseverything Jan 2020 #19
I agree that paper ballots are reasonably secure in most cases. patphil Jan 2020 #21
Paper ballots can be manipulated one at a time...One. By. One. ret5hd Jan 2020 #23
True. But you will never get any state to go back to paper ballots. patphil Jan 2020 #25
the article the op is discussing is about georgia being forced thru a law suit to return to paper questionseverything Jan 2020 #29
sorry, paper ballots is the only way not_the_one Jan 2020 #36
the idea that hand counting is expensive is silly questionseverything Jan 2020 #28
Exactly. Hand counting paper ballots is as easy as sorting laundry. diva77 Jan 2020 #32
way easier than matching socks! questionseverything Jan 2020 #33
... questionseverything Jan 2020 #20
electronic voting systems can NOT be verified Hermit-The-Prog Jan 2020 #24
Of course they can. patphil Jan 2020 #27
no it is not possible Hermit-The-Prog Jan 2020 #30
We all know that Stacey Abrams won. She was just cheated out of it. Lonestarblue Jan 2020 #13
Yep. triron Jan 2020 #22
Sad truth. VOX Jan 2020 #37
Any other country that boasts they have a democracy, would have shelved those computers long ago LiberalLovinLug Jan 2020 #15
I knew it! Brtcha they were hacked in 2018 too! nt napi21 Jan 2020 #16
Why am I not surprised? llmart Jan 2020 #18
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