General Discussion

HiPointDem

(20,729 posts)

256. Saying 'i support the chicago teachers strike' and 'chicago teachers make too much money' =

Thu Sep 13, 2012, 12:38 AM

Sep 2012

ambiguous.

it's funny that you say this strike is alienating the public when polls say 47% of chicagoans support, 39% oppose, the rest undecided.

class sizes are one of the issues on the table.

'prevent any connection between outcomes & pay/retention/discipline' = your own invention.

you don't support the strike, & you're just making stuff up + spreading the "teachers make too much money" meme.

you forgot to add this in your posts, btw:

The Employee Position File shows the base salaries of CPS employees, but does not reflect the 15 unpaid holidays, furlough and shutdown days that have being mandated for all non-union CPS employees in 2010 and 2011. Those days amount to an approximately 6 percent salary reduction. In 2009, non-union employees took 6 unpaid days.

http://www.cps.edu/About_CPS/Financial_information/Pages/EmployeePositionFiles.aspx

so that top salary of $94K for the phd with 20 years in is actually $88K.

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I'd like someone to tell me how it is possible to be a liberal and not support striking teachers. [View all] Stinky The Clown Sep 2012 OP

Public employees are employed to serve the needs of the citizenry. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #1

Economic times are tough forthemiddle Sep 2012 #7

Apparently you missed this: Poll shows strong support for chicago teachers HiPointDem Sep 2012 #27

That poll doesn't say anything about supporting a strike Freddie Stubbs Sep 2012 #29

"they were joined by many of the very people who are most inconvenienced by their walkout" Hissyspit Sep 2012 #134

Hey He Has Been Here Since 2001 With Less Than 50 Posts HangOnKids Sep 2012 #75

I think you are right that part of human nature says "I have it tough, so should they". BUT pampango Sep 2012 #43

This is not the 1st time the economy has dipped or fallen. Teachers are society's scapegoats today. MichiganVote Sep 2012 #100

Even with Government jobs, we don't have a right to work public servants like slaves. Zalatix Sep 2012 #12

The same labor dynamic exists in public employment as private. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #16

Good work NEVER comes cheap. People keep trying to circumvent that and it never works. Zalatix Sep 2012 #187

Is $76,000 annually for 9 months work "starvation"? lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #227

No, but they're worth WELL over $76K and teachers around here don't make nearly that much. Zalatix Sep 2012 #232

Only in Lake Woebegone is everyone worth more than average. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #233

The good ones certainly are WinniSkipper Sep 2012 #236

We don't have to sink to the market rate. eomer Sep 2012 #222

The people paying the bills are not insulated from "the market rate". lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #224

Progressive taxation will take care of that. eomer Sep 2012 #235

"...we don't have a right to work public servants like slaves." porphyrian Sep 2012 #24

FIY tama Sep 2012 #39

The contract that they will eventually accept won't affect privatized schools in any way. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #179

Awwww... tama Sep 2012 #203

Tell me you're not a teacher. Please. n/t lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #218

You are not a public employee's employer obamanut2012 Sep 2012 #70

Agreed. Iris Sep 2012 #266

Not individually, no. Collectively? Yes. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #273

Actually, I do not consider my son's teachers my employees. Chorophyll Sep 2012 #126

The pecking order is this: lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #178

that's a pretty narrow view of the world... Javaman Sep 2012 #212

Who is "the school district"? lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #215

Oh for fuck sakes. Javaman Sep 2012 #219

So long as teachers aren't striking, it's being run properly? Does it matter if kids are learning? lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #223

and your point is? I answered you about civics then throw this at me? Javaman Sep 2012 #230

That's your assertion, not mine. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #231

Look, what ever gets you though the night. Javaman Sep 2012 #239

Yeah. You said that. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #240

Nice try, but we're still done. Javaman Sep 2012 #260

Hysterical. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #262

Sure why not? Javaman Sep 2012 #263

Ah, not to argue over this as I agree as far as your list of adults goes, more or less. NYC_SKP Sep 2012 #213

I have to disagree, and I don't think I've failed civics 101, thank you. Chorophyll Sep 2012 #226

The purpose of unions is to bargain collectively. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #228

Your sense of entitlement is stunning. Chorophyll Sep 2012 #270

The teacher to student ratio is 1:20 in CPS grade schools. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #271

Thank you. Iris Sep 2012 #267

You're welcome. Chorophyll Sep 2012 #268

Yes - you don't exactly expect to see the term "pecking order" Iris Sep 2012 #278

Yep. And sanitation workers, cops, firefighters -- all self-employed! Chorophyll Sep 2012 #283

Would you like them to pick some cotton for you too, massa suh? Scootaloo Sep 2012 #201

If you think that the policy and conduct of your school district is none of your business... lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #216

Do you believe your education is important or secondary? lunatica Sep 2012 #208

That's a compelling argument. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #217

They're citizens, too. Zalatix Sep 2012 #241

Absolutely. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #243

Ah, good blame the victim logic right there. Zalatix Sep 2012 #244

Victim?? Jesus. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #247

They called the strike because they wanted improvements in working conditions. Zalatix Sep 2012 #255

+1 nt Javaman Sep 2012 #261

I don't know. Maybe if you have three kids and have nowhere else to send them to school ... GodlessBiker Sep 2012 #2

Do you know why a crab bucket doesn't need a lid? Egalitarian Thug Sep 2012 #10

+1,000!!! Zalatix Sep 2012 #13

This 100% obamanut2012 Sep 2012 #71

I grew up in the desert. Arizona, to be specific. I live in Portland, OR now, but have no clue... boppers Sep 2012 #139

Every time one crab tries to climb out of the bucket, the other crabs drag him back down. n/t backscatter712 Sep 2012 #152

Thank you. boppers Sep 2012 #157

Sorry, mountain boy myself. When you go crabbing you just bring a pail and as Egalitarian Thug Sep 2012 #159

This does not supercede the right to strike obamanut2012 Sep 2012 #72

It wasn't meant to supercede the right to strike. It was meant to show... GodlessBiker Sep 2012 #90

And if... YvonneCa Sep 2012 #132

Maybe if you had three kids you'd be worried about the kind of country they sabrina 1 Sep 2012 #91

EXCELLENT post. n/t YvonneCa Sep 2012 #138

Plenty of teachers are single parents and their bills pile up too. MichiganVote Sep 2012 #104

Oh, forget it. You win. All liberals are equally politically sophisticated. GodlessBiker Sep 2012 #121

That's too nuanced for the 'you're either with us or against us' crowd. randome Sep 2012 #123

People understand nuance, but at some point you do have to pick a side usually. Hissyspit Sep 2012 #130

I do not support Karen Lewis wanting a 29% pay increase. randome Sep 2012 #135

How is "not informed" a bad *argument* for why people might be against the strike? boppers Sep 2012 #140

Hell, yeah, give me more information. randome Sep 2012 #145

Really? Hissyspit Sep 2012 #165

Yes. The question was "why". boppers Sep 2012 #172

I understood the question. Hissyspit Sep 2012 #183

So, to be a liberal, you have to be highly aware of all current issues? boppers Sep 2012 #195

This message was self-deleted by its author Hissyspit Sep 2012 #198

It's not a purity test at all. Hissyspit Sep 2012 #199

Here;s the OP for reference: boppers Sep 2012 #200

And the rebuttal is a Jeff Foxworthy line: you may not be a liberal... eomer Sep 2012 #264

How low we have sunk. boppers Sep 2012 #282

Somebody has sunk, don't think it's me. eomer Sep 2012 #284

You are right about the need to learn about the interconncetedness of things. When I... YvonneCa Sep 2012 #143

Striking Chicago Teachers Get Support From Parents Hissyspit Sep 2012 #133

As a Democrat kctim Sep 2012 #3

". . . . . . for you all not to consider them Republican?" Stinky The Clown Sep 2012 #6

I get what you mean, but the last sentence needs work. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #11

Depends how you define liberal. limpyhobbler Sep 2012 #4

I'd like somebody to tell me how it is possible to say that liberals should ALWAYS do anything. renie408 Sep 2012 #5

Simple. You can't. Now, you can certainly be a Democrat and be strongly anti-worker, just look Egalitarian Thug Sep 2012 #8

What profits? lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #14

There are plenty of profits when the public sphere is privatized, which is what's been happening HiPointDem Sep 2012 #28

It is a background issue, not central to the strike. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #32

It is *not* a background issue, it's at the core of the evaluations issue. HiPointDem Sep 2012 #35

Charter schools are the central part of this strike obamanut2012 Sep 2012 #73

My issue is not with teacher pay joeglow3 Sep 2012 #23

Out of curiosity, what do you think Chicago teachers are paid? n/t lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #34

Pay scale tops out at about $92K for a teacher with PhD and 20 years in. HiPointDem Sep 2012 #40

We agree that privatized schools are a problem. But that's not the topic. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #55

16% is a bargaining position that carries with it, e.g. higher employee payments for health benefits HiPointDem Sep 2012 #57

Okay, fine. Point out the teacher analagous to Bill Gates in the CPS system. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #65

There isn't likely to be any teacher analogous to bill gates. but the 'average" *is* right-skewed HiPointDem Sep 2012 #77

[citation neeeded] boppers Sep 2012 #144

This is directly from the school district lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #181

i'm not sure why you think that negates my example. In my example on the misleading nature HiPointDem Sep 2012 #202

it doesn't fascisthunter Sep 2012 #238

Your contention is that an average figure doesn't give an accurate idea of the pay of each teacher. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #245

where's that, jeff? btw, of course you know that the rahm gang passed a law that limited HiPointDem Sep 2012 #246

Third time's a charm lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #248

Because they can bargain for the other demands using salary as leverage. HiPointDem Sep 2012 #249

Here's what will happen. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #250

what don't you understand about 'there is no fucking 16% raise.' that's a bargaining position, and HiPointDem Sep 2012 #251

We'll see. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #252

if all they wanted was a raise, they could have got it on day one. because rahm came in with HiPointDem Sep 2012 #253

I support collective bargaining. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #254

Saying 'i support the chicago teachers strike' and 'chicago teachers make too much money' = HiPointDem Sep 2012 #256

I've never said the former. nt lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #259

Senate Bill 7 was the work of Jonah Edelman, his corporate reform group Stand for Children, and HiPointDem Sep 2012 #258

I do not think it negates anything. boppers Sep 2012 #280

Corporate media tama Sep 2012 #59

you realize that the atlanta cheating scandal is fallout from the move to high-stakes testing, HiPointDem Sep 2012 #37

That is a local issue and has nothing whatsoever to do with this. Yes, people have let their school Egalitarian Thug Sep 2012 #197

+1,000 for the cookie joke! Zalatix Sep 2012 #188

It is not possible. mmonk Sep 2012 #9

Because some people had bad experiences MicaelS Sep 2012 #15

I don't think there is a single person that contends that the schools are not screwed up and that Egalitarian Thug Sep 2012 #17

I will take you at your word that you don't want a flame war, and will answer you in kind: msanthrope Sep 2012 #18

Actually, I'm not pretending it is about anything. Stinky The Clown Sep 2012 #20

I didn't mean to imply that 'you' were pretending...I just think Karen Lewis has been disengenuous msanthrope Sep 2012 #21

All I know about the CPS is a handful of teachers I've known over the years... Hassin Bin Sober Sep 2012 #41

I have no complaint with the compensation, mind you. But when you add in the 5:45 msanthrope Sep 2012 #45

I'll take their word over your misrepresentation tama Sep 2012 #46

What you are implying is illegal and undemocratic. A union is obliged to follow the laws msanthrope Sep 2012 #51

I'm not impressed tama Sep 2012 #56

No, your numbers are wrong. Zoeisright Sep 2012 #53

As I said below, I don't have a problem with the pay. I agree with you that msanthrope Sep 2012 #63

Here is the relevant info from CPS: Teachers - $74,839 annually. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #67

Take home pay typically does not include.... boppers Sep 2012 #146

Teachers in Chicago don't pay SS tax. n/t lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #180

You should look for a teacher. They might be able to help you understand statistics. jeff47 Sep 2012 #92

Aren't liberals free to believe what they want? porphyrian Sep 2012 #19

I won't blindly support anyone, including striking teachers joeglow3 Sep 2012 #22

Yes, everything and everyone should be viewed objectively. randome Sep 2012 #25

Do CPAs have a 3-5 year probationary period before they are deemed "real" CPAs with rights? HiPointDem Sep 2012 #30

Yes, they do. joeglow3 Sep 2012 #50

Turnover rates at the Big 4 firms are irrelevant to anything. HiPointDem Sep 2012 #52

Of course they are......now. joeglow3 Sep 2012 #62

You can't RegieRocker Sep 2012 #26

It depends on what they are striking for.... Walk away Sep 2012 #31

The union is not bargaining for smaller class size. msanthrope Sep 2012 #54

It would be fun to watch tama Sep 2012 #61

I don't think it would be fun. I think the union is msanthrope Sep 2012 #66

Then stop tama Sep 2012 #69

When you've told someone to 'shut up' it indicates that you have no argument. msanthrope Sep 2012 #83

You tama Sep 2012 #93

And now you are quoting Clint Eastwood? nt msanthrope Sep 2012 #109

I like the guy tama Sep 2012 #115

Hell of a speaker, too, right? nt msanthrope Sep 2012 #142

Yup. :) tama Sep 2012 #150

Sorry, they are asking for more assistant teachers s so that there are more teachers/assistants/.... Walk away Sep 2012 #257

I support all striking workers: it's this kind of half-arsed attitude towards unions that weakens MatthewStLouis Sep 2012 #33

Heartily agree HERVEPA Sep 2012 #44

Teaching and learning tama Sep 2012 #49

I stand in support, too. All the way. Solidarity! Zalatix Sep 2012 #189

Its simple... You Can't! krhines Sep 2012 #36

Party first tama Sep 2012 #38

You can't get blood out of a turnip. avebury Sep 2012 #42

This message was self-deleted by its author AnotherMcIntosh Sep 2012 #112

I think some UAW contracts in the 70s were out of control. So sometimes the union might be wrong. Logical Sep 2012 #47

Labor cost is less than 10% of a vehicle. does that sound out of control to you? HiPointDem Sep 2012 #78

To the argument of the CPA and MD and other professionals who lose licenses... cr8tvlde Sep 2012 #48

Teachers also cannot self employ aka hang out a shingle obamanut2012 Sep 2012 #81

26,000 Chicago teachers are on strike...26,000!! Teamster Jeff Sep 2012 #58

blind 100% support for any issue without know the facts rdking647 Sep 2012 #95

Scab Teamster Jeff Sep 2012 #119

Then you're a lackluster citizen. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #182

Lackluster would be having only a single, simplistic dimension to your membership in society. eomer Sep 2012 #265

a) where did I say "taxpayer"? lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #269

You said: "The teachers are negotiating with you, via your representatives." eomer Sep 2012 #276

In order to answer your question, I think we would need a solid working coalition_unwilling Sep 2012 #60

I'm the daughter of unionized teachers gollygee Sep 2012 #64

It isn't obamanut2012 Sep 2012 #68

I am absolutely amazed at the replies to this post. Stinky The Clown Sep 2012 #74

Ignorant Propagandists Are Gonna Spread Propaganda. N/T HangOnKids Sep 2012 #79

It's been like this all week obamanut2012 Sep 2012 #82

You should have picked it up by now..... KoKo Sep 2012 #87

So you just wanted to hear affirmations of your own opinion? randome Sep 2012 #88

No shit. I'm appalled at how people who disagreed with the OP were treated. great white snark Sep 2012 #107

Do Tell. How were they "treated'? Stinky The Clown Sep 2012 #114

Omaha Steve got dozens of union members to sign up when WI was happening. Starry Messenger Sep 2012 #117

+1 Union Scribe Sep 2012 #174

the anti-union propaganda runs deep. Javaman Sep 2012 #220

+1 leftstreet Sep 2012 #229

It ain't possible. - K&R n/t DeSwiss Sep 2012 #76

HOME SCHOOLED!!! Meg_Griffin_1 Sep 2012 #80

omg obamanut2012 Sep 2012 #84

LOL Teamster Jeff Sep 2012 #85

Awesome! You know to the dollar what your kids are worth. Very nice, very nice. DisgustipatedinCA Sep 2012 #86

For The Win HangOnKids Sep 2012 #141

If you read the post again, no worth was mentioned by them. boppers Sep 2012 #149

Maybe you should read my post a second time, or a third DisgustipatedinCA Sep 2012 #168

I did. You replied to a poster talking about their children's income, but made a remark about worth. boppers Sep 2012 #173

Getting closer. n/t DisgustipatedinCA Sep 2012 #186

Post removed Post removed Sep 2012 #98

This message was self-deleted by its author HangOnKids Sep 2012 #136

Same here, but some people can NOT afford that. Zalatix Sep 2012 #192

Yep Dorian Gray Sep 2012 #207

The OP was about DEMS supporting teachers Doctor_J Sep 2012 #211

i posted yesterday saying i though the strike was a mistake rdking647 Sep 2012 #89

The strike should have happened a long time ago. It should have happened as sabrina 1 Sep 2012 #96

maybe it should have happened a long time ago rdking647 Sep 2012 #99

Do you know what they want? You don't seem to frankly. sabrina 1 Sep 2012 #103

what they want will cost money. period rdking647 Sep 2012 #106

What Rahm and his corporate buddies want has cost the taxpayers millions. sabrina 1 Sep 2012 #113

We can't pay our teachers more, but we can pay for drone strikes and tax breaks for the rich??? Zalatix Sep 2012 #194

What I find especially...interesting...is why objectivity like yours is castigated. randome Sep 2012 #97

i actually had to report a post for the first time ever yesterday rdking647 Sep 2012 #102

I respect you for your insight bigwillq Sep 2012 #110

Jesus, it's almost like 'coming out', isn't it? randome Sep 2012 #111

No need to come out. Most everyone here already knows. Zorra Sep 2012 #129

Because critical thinking skills are not valued by some DUers. I get it. randome Sep 2012 #131

You gotta shoot for the moon ~ Zorra Sep 2012 #193

You talk of critical thinking skills but it's obvious... Javaman Sep 2012 #221

Fair point. randome Sep 2012 #225

No shit! Union Scribe Sep 2012 #176

you are not what I would consider a liberal fascisthunter Sep 2012 #160

what is labeled a liberal here in most of teh world would be label far left fringe rdking647 Sep 2012 #169

Where, Iran? Union Scribe Sep 2012 #177

does being a liberal mean you have to support every single so called liberal idea? rdking647 Sep 2012 #94

What is a Liberal to you? I am a Democrat and Democrats traditionally support the sabrina 1 Sep 2012 #101

in general i support unions rdking647 Sep 2012 #105

If you supported the teachers in Wisconsin, it doesn't make any sense that you wouldn't support proud2BlibKansan Sep 2012 #125

That is very definitely worth striking over! randome Sep 2012 #127

Texas. Got it. Can you be a bit more specific. cr8tvlde Sep 2012 #153

How is it possible to be a Democrat and not support a Democratic Mayor? (nt) Nye Bevan Sep 2012 #108

By declaring tama Sep 2012 #116

I'm a liberal American first and foremost... mike_c Sep 2012 #118

You can put your mind at ease, Stinky. Zorra Sep 2012 #120

My thoughts exactly! n/t backscatter712 Sep 2012 #147

I don't think you can, to me to be anti-union is the arthritisR_US Sep 2012 #122

I support unions in general, but that doesn't mean liberals have to support 100% Proles Sep 2012 #124

Of course the question was about striking teachers. Teachers on strike. Bluenorthwest Sep 2012 #154

Well you're right, I should have read the question more closely. I thought it said unions. Proles Sep 2012 #163

"of course i support unions...teachers...just not in *this* case....or any other case that comes HiPointDem Sep 2012 #288

Oh, they are lying about being liberals - just like our politicians. Edweird Sep 2012 #128

This message was self-deleted by its author devilgrrl Sep 2012 #137

That's right. backscatter712 Sep 2012 #151

why do you think madfloridan left...... madrchsod Sep 2012 #148

I do support the teachers and hope they get what they are asking for bluestateguy Sep 2012 #155

That's an easy one....... Swede Atlanta Sep 2012 #156

The problem isn't just the money. backscatter712 Sep 2012 #158

no fascisthunter Sep 2012 #161

And liberals are never sociopaths? Or want to be rich? randome Sep 2012 #162

If you're behaving sociopathically, that is by definition not liberal. backscatter712 Sep 2012 #166

Did you get an answer to your question? randome Sep 2012 #164

do you realize what an incredible opportunity has been wasted? ibegurpard Sep 2012 #167

heres a hypothetical question rdking647 Sep 2012 #170

You Have Now Gone From Being Obtuse To Being Absurd HangOnKids Sep 2012 #175

haha fascisthunter Sep 2012 #237

Unfortunately, the message has been muddied. Reader Rabbit Sep 2012 #171

precisely! ibegurpard Sep 2012 #191

Post removed Post removed Sep 2012 #184

It's possible to be a liberal and not support lots of things. To be liberal is to be part of a herd cherokeeprogressive Sep 2012 #185

So tama Sep 2012 #204

I think every working man in this country should stop B Calm Sep 2012 #190

What do you think DemocratsForProgress Sep 2012 #196

I'm sincerely sorry tama Sep 2012 #206

And I'm sincerely sorry DemocratsForProgress Sep 2012 #274

Jumping into personal attack tama Sep 2012 #275

Had you made this comment originally, I'd have taken your meaning. DemocratsForProgress Sep 2012 #277

No need to apology tama Sep 2012 #281

kiitos n/t DemocratsForProgress Sep 2012 #285

<3 tama Sep 2012 #286

I'm not interested in getting attention of the power-elite tama Sep 2012 #205

I think woo me with science Sep 2012 #210

You aren't talking to liberals. You aren't even talking to "centrists." woo me with science Sep 2012 #209

You'll see, in my OP, that I asked for a discussion . . . . . Stinky The Clown Sep 2012 #214

You asked a very specific question, and you got a very specific answer. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #234

Sad state of affairs here. n/t Iris Sep 2012 #279

Heh tama Sep 2012 #287

amen. it makes one very sad. HiPointDem Sep 2012 #289

It would be possible if the teachers' demands were unrealistic. OneTenthofOnePercent Sep 2012 #242

it's not possible, Stinky. bigtree Sep 2012 #272