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cojoel

(958 posts)
83. there are numerous flaws in the model
Fri Sep 14, 2012, 11:29 AM
Sep 2012

First off, the $70T number is an the total expenditures estimated between now and at least 2050. In calculus, the integral of the spending growth functions of each area from now until that date. What end date did you used when you calculated $70T?

There is an old saying in modeling which says that for a an interval of sufficiently short duration a linear model is probably adequate. This model uses what is "essentially" a linear extrapolation of recent past trends out over a period of perhaps 40 years. If you look over the past four years as an example, things were quite a bit different in 1972 than now, we went through a period of high inflation (Nixon/Ford/Carter), a "borrow and spend" philosophy of Reagan, the S&L fraud crisis, several expansions and bubbles, the pointless degregulation of banking, and a worldwide economic depression. What did you assume would happen in the next 40 years?

The challenge to NPV modelling is also that you have to assume rates at which currency devalues over a long period, the cost of debt, the return on other investments, and other assorted items from the crystal ball. The further out you go, the less trustworthy the numbers are. When a proper analysis done, you usually get a range of worst-case, average-case, and best-case scenarios. Which type of scenario is yours?

The charts I have seen (you didn't give us any, but something like what is at http://www.fiscalsolvency.com/ is sufficient for this argument) show the growth in these obligations coming from two things:
1) Ever-rising medical costs (Medicare and Medicaid obligations)
2) Ever-increasing interest costs (servicing the debt).
We will cover both of these. Over that forty-year period, social security obligations are flat. Other obligations shrink. Strangely missing from the chart is defense expenditures. Hmmm, I wonder who made that chart? More importantly, what are the big drivers of increased obligations of the next 40 years in your model?

The linear model of ever-rising medical costs is modelled on trends that were true starting in the late 1980s, where costs were rising at 2-3 times the rate of core inflation. That lasted for a long time. Yet in the last two years medical costs rose at a much lower rate. The trend going forward is to provide additional downward pressure on the rate these costs rise. And before that period there was not so much increase. I believe the costs will continue to rise, but more in line with core inflation. If I'm wrong, it would not be the first time. Rising medical costs could continue to be a problem. This is an area of concern, obviously, but just as obvious one that administration has an ongoing focus. What rate of increase in medical costs did you use in your model?

The ever increasing costs of interest is also not really believable. From my perspective we could stop adding to the debt load tomorrow if the politicians would make revenues match outflows. Clinton got us there on budget #1 (balanced by the SS Trust fund of course), but pointless tax cuts, unfunded wars, and unfunded medicare benefits, and with out those things we would have been in complete fiscal solvency now with the government wondering how to invest the social security trust funds. I think a reasonable aim for the administration over the next four years would be to implement the tax increases suggested, as well as possibly an additional temporary millionaire surtax, so get the gap closed significantly to reduce the growth on that curve. It will have to be done gradually, but it isn't hopeless. What rate did you assume the government debt would grow?

I think it will work out in the end. The sooner the Tea Party has left the building the sooner we will get there.

This 53 year old has it right.... [View all] Playinghardball Sep 2012 OP
yup. nt seabeyond Sep 2012 #1
SWEET!!! coldbeer Sep 2012 #14
Yep. The "over my dead body" part is quite accurate. Duer 157099 Sep 2012 #2
I am 47 I totally agree... Kalidurga Sep 2012 #3
Just turned 48 and totally agree MotorCityMan Sep 2012 #55
I'm 75 and I agree HelenWheels Sep 2012 #84
You are absolutely right OLDMDDEM Oct 2012 #89
Out of money is out of money. dkf Sep 2012 #4
RE: out of money is out of money ToxMarz Sep 2012 #19
+1 Jazzgirl Sep 2012 #25
Thanks for answering that so capably.. tokenlib Sep 2012 #51
How can you pay out $70 trillion when total US wealth is less than $70 trillion? dkf Sep 2012 #77
ummm Loudestlib Sep 2012 #85
There is plenty of money. It just needs to be paid. Ikonoklast Sep 2012 #20
The present value of our federal obligations is $70 trillion if you add social security and Medicare dkf Sep 2012 #31
You assume that there will be nothing done to change that. Ikonoklast Sep 2012 #33
RE: Crazy huh? ToxMarz Sep 2012 #37
"We" didn't get "ourselves" on any hook, we were robbed and the money is still there. n/t Egalitarian Thug Sep 2012 #39
You throw that $70 trillion number around pretty liberally (so to speak)... JHB Sep 2012 #64
The SS fund is not in any danger of not being able to meet its obligations for at least another sabrina 1 Sep 2012 #30
The net present value of federal obligations is $70 trillion. That equals all the world's assets. dkf Sep 2012 #34
Oh FFS dkf HangOnKids Sep 2012 #38
You tell me when the US Government has ever defaulted on its sabrina 1 Sep 2012 #40
They aren't going to default on the Treasury Bonds. It's the rest of the obligations at risk. dkf Sep 2012 #42
What obligations are at risk? sabrina 1 Sep 2012 #46
No...I'm talking about after the trust fund is used up. dkf Sep 2012 #54
The trust fund will not be used up. It has three sources of revenue and sabrina 1 Sep 2012 #56
Do you not understand they have obligated more money than exists? dkf Sep 2012 #69
You Understand That The Wealth Is Recycled Over Time? ProfessorGAC Sep 2012 #78
So you think it is perfectly reasonable to think that obligations with a net present value of $70 dkf Sep 2012 #80
The fucking trust fund is SUPPOSED to be used up, fercrhissakes! eridani Sep 2012 #58
When you add all the promises it exceeds our assets. dkf Sep 2012 #75
The we default to our other creditors and cut back our imperial war machine eridani Sep 2012 #87
How about you break that number down, and go into the assumptions behind it? JHB Sep 2012 #65
This is the same logic Bush & Issa used to kill the post office Doctor_J Sep 2012 #73
there are numerous flaws in the model cojoel Sep 2012 #83
+1 DeeDeeNY Sep 2012 #70
We need more bullshit RW talking points the way we need holes in our heads n/t eridani Sep 2012 #57
Did you get your numbers from Drudge Report? ...Again? n/t Scootaloo Sep 2012 #61
Really? Tell the 1%ers whose wealth is growing exponentially dotymed Sep 2012 #71
There is plenty of money. Its just spent on the wrong things. olegramps Sep 2012 #76
Am 64 and will be taking Medicare in Jan. I don't want to see anyone lose these benefits. southernyankeebelle Sep 2012 #5
+1000. Just found out that I will have to have a cataract operation eridani Sep 2012 #59
I am grateful to get it. I will fight for the younger people to have it also. Not just for my southernyankeebelle Sep 2012 #66
Oh, yes, and then some... MANative Sep 2012 #6
I resemble that remark liberal N proud Sep 2012 #7
I'm 51... Sophiegirl Sep 2012 #8
They need to raise the ceiling on FICA. Blanks Sep 2012 #9
Exactly PatSeg Sep 2012 #22
President Obama supported it in 2008--it's better than cuts.. tokenlib Sep 2012 #53
I'm 53 as well and that's EXACTLY how I feel. Matariki Sep 2012 #10
Especially when they enjoy all sorts of "entitlements" themselves Art_from_Ark Sep 2012 #48
I will turn 64 in November HockeyMom Sep 2012 #11
I'm 55 & I don't believe the bullshit that I'm safe. CrispyQ Sep 2012 #12
Anyone over 55 (or even over 65) who thinks they are safe is delusional eridani Sep 2012 #62
I'm a little short of that mark, but not by much... JHB Sep 2012 #13
as they talk about stopping Social Security and Medicare onethatcares Sep 2012 #15
Remember the "work until you're 70" suggestions of late? KansDem Sep 2012 #35
yes, I remember that onethatcares Sep 2012 #43
more divide + conquer. pansypoo53219 Sep 2012 #16
Do the right thing! HenryWallace Sep 2012 #17
So how do we fix it? pediatricmedic Sep 2012 #18
Change the tax rate paid from 2.9% to 4.25%. Medicare Fixed. Ikonoklast Sep 2012 #24
There are a number of tweaks that could be tried taught_me_patience Sep 2012 #28
Don't forget Medicare for All. If our per capita health care expenses were the same-- eridani Sep 2012 #63
Fix what? You just made a false statement regarding SS. sabrina 1 Sep 2012 #41
mark to come back to rurallib Sep 2012 #21
Bullshit. It's only a little adjustment around the margins. MannyGoldstein Sep 2012 #23
You think cat food is cheap? still_one Sep 2012 #27
Some of it is pretty cheap Art_from_Ark Sep 2012 #52
At 61 I'm eligible to file for SS in December--and I am. mnhtnbb Sep 2012 #26
I hope he explained that to his parents. JohnnyRingo Sep 2012 #29
Retired people need to be made to understand that they are not grandfathered into anything! brewens Sep 2012 #32
I happen to be 53, too. hamsterjill Sep 2012 #36
I'm 51 and this really pisses me off. madinmaryland Sep 2012 #44
Is it possible that hospitals are grossly overcharging and no one is stopping them? RepublicansRZombies Sep 2012 #45
I turned 55, this year Timbuk3 Sep 2012 #47
This 53 year old agrees. OnionPatch Sep 2012 #49
I'm 52 and can totally relate - part of why this is being done is demographics NoAmericanTaliban Sep 2012 #50
"Fuck the young" Scootaloo Sep 2012 #60
What comes after the The Greatest Generation. Sanddancer Sep 2012 #67
I just turned 65 OLDMDDEM Sep 2012 #68
Which is why every single Dem in the WH and Congress should declare, Doctor_J Sep 2012 #72
I've been paying into it for 30 years boston bean Sep 2012 #74
I'm 49. Borchkins Sep 2012 #79
53 next month LittleGirl Sep 2012 #81
Amen, I'm 58, sibs are 52, 50 and 46. joanbarnes Sep 2012 #82
I'm 48 and feel the exact same way!!! citizen blues Sep 2012 #86
Playinghardball OLDMDDEM Oct 2012 #88
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