Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News Editorials & Other Articles General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

NNadir

(38,380 posts)
35. Roosevelt was no dummy; neither was Churchill.
Sat Jun 13, 2020, 02:42 PM
Jun 2020

If you open a good biography of Churchill - I've just read Andrew Roberts wildly acclaimed, but occasionally morally over generous biography of him - he had no illusions about who and what Stalin was.

As I remarked in another thread in which there was also whining about the fact that the Lincoln Project is run by (gasp) Republicans, Churchill famously said after the commencement of Barbarossa, “If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favorable reference to the devil in the House of Commons.”

You seem to disagree with that practical attitude, and want to whine about the Lincoln Project at this time, when they are working to the same goal as all of us here are working, getting rid of that awful beast tearing the White House to pieces.

I have no use for your position.

I must say too, that I am a member of the Democratic Party - and have been my whole adult life - because of its approach to human decency, education, fighting against racism, and (albeit less important than when I was young) concern for the poor, preservation of wilderness etc.

That does not mean that I endorse every rote party position. For example I have spent thirty years in intense study of the primary scientific literature concerning energy and the environment - posts about that work dominate my journal here - and I would say that the overwhelming policy of the majority of the members of my party - that we're going to save the world, along with our bourgeois lifestyle - with so called "renewable energy" is absurd and is actually making things worse, not better. I believe for example, that Ed Markey is a dangerous fool when it comes to Energy and the Environment, but would probably vote for him if his opponent was a person so morally bankrupt as to declare himself or herself as a member of the Trump dominated Republican Party of the 21st century. (I once considered voting for a Republican in the 20th century - Jacob Javits - but didn't do so because of Nixon.)

So I'm certainly no ideologue.

It is not the case that we benefit by eliminating opposition; on the contrary any political party benefits by having a sane opposition. That is what is generally lacking in our country; our current opposition is insane, corrupt, reactionary and ignorant. That said, the remnants of a sane honorable opposition exist, and they are well represented by the Lincoln Project.

In sane times, I would oppose them on particular issues for sure. But these are not sane times; and I welcome their marvelous participation in this overwhelmingly important goal of removing this horrible excuse for a human being from our national life. Their ads are excellent, and I believe effective, and that's all that matters to me right now.

I regard quibbling with them in times like these as foolish and destructive.

I don't think that either Roosevelt or Churchill were naive as to what and who Stalin was. Harry Truman certainly wasn't. However the world was better with Stalin without Hitler, than it would have been with both Stalin and Hitler.

One needs to be realistic about what is achievable, and by doing so, both Churchill and Roosevelt, for all their disagreements with Stalin and with each other, achieved the best that could be achieved in the early 1940's. This is why they are both considered to be great men, flawed great men, but great men all the same.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

Republican allies of convenience [View all] WonderGrunion Jun 2020 OP
I agree I_UndergroundPanther Jun 2020 #1
#firetheliars2020 TheNewNumberTwo Jun 2020 #2
You are so wrong DownriverDem Jun 2020 #9
#f***TheGOPs TheNewNumberTwo Jun 2020 #22
Mostly I agree, but I believe there may be exceptions. soldierant Jun 2020 #20
they are welcome to grab and oar. they wont be allowed to steer the ship. mopinko Jun 2020 #3
like this analogy very much! Solomon Jun 2020 #29
feel free to repeat it. mopinko Jun 2020 #30
Not quite. Yes many of them remain "small government conservatives" but groups like the OnDoutside Jun 2020 #4
Rec x 1,000 denbot Jun 2020 #5
Ditto that...a little background PandoraAwakened Jun 2020 #6
It's always surprisng to me that even WITHOUT the wink and nod, 40% of Americans... Beartracks Jun 2020 #16
i love her because she laughs at him, and when she tries to read his tweets, mopinko Jun 2020 #31
Yes, they are needed Skidmore Jun 2020 #7
Fine, but we should do less looking a gift horse in the mouth. NNadir Jun 2020 #8
#f***TheGOPs TheNewNumberTwo Jun 2020 #23
So let me guess what your spin on history is. NNadir Jun 2020 #24
#DumptheTurdNov3 TheNewNumberTwo Jun 2020 #34
Roosevelt was no dummy; neither was Churchill. NNadir Jun 2020 #35
#f**theGOPs TheNewNumberTwo Jun 2020 #36
I'm good with that because flotsam Jun 2020 #10
Yes and no . . . evilhime Jun 2020 #11
Totally agree, if you listen closely they are posturing between the lines already bucolic_frolic Jun 2020 #12
I want them to take back the GOP zipplewrath Jun 2020 #13
They all still think conservatism can work. However, the main problem preventing it... Beartracks Jun 2020 #14
add to the list mnmoderatedem Jun 2020 #15
They're hitting him from the other side. That's all I care about. Iggo Jun 2020 #17
Absolutely true. I very much remember lots of Republican naysayers before Trump was selected. live love laugh Jun 2020 #18
Great point seta1950 Jun 2020 #19
The enemy of my enemy is a friend. For now. GulfCoast66 Jun 2020 #21
Purity is a wonderful thing but octoberlib Jun 2020 #25
+1000 smirkymonkey Jun 2020 #26
I dont care Cosmocat Jun 2020 #27
Adversaries but not enemies? kentuck Jun 2020 #28
I welcome all ammunition against the criminal regime. dalton99a Jun 2020 #32
I have come to believe that we need responsible adversaries Tom Rinaldo Jun 2020 #33
Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Republican allies of conv...»Reply #35