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TransitJohn

(6,937 posts)
67. I don't think you know what a theory is.
Sun Jan 8, 2012, 07:32 AM
Jan 2012

Start here:

When non-biologists talk about biological evolution they often confuse two different aspects of the definition. On the one hand there is the question of whether or not modern organisms have evolved from older ancestral organisms or whether modern species are continuing to change over time. On the other hand there are questions about the mechanism of the observed changes... how did evolution occur? Biologists consider the existence of biological evolution to be a fact. It can be demonstrated today and the historical evidence for its occurrence in the past is overwhelming. However, biologists readily admit that they are less certain of the exact mechanism of evolution; there are several theories of the mechanism of evolution. Stephen J. Gould has put this as well as anyone else:
In the American vernacular, "theory" often means "imperfect fact"--part of a hierarchy of confidence running downhill from fact to theory to hypothesis to guess. Thus the power of the creationist argument: evolution is "only" a theory and intense debate now rages about many aspects of the theory. If evolution is worse than a fact, and scientists can't even make up their minds about the theory, then what confidence can we have in it? Indeed, President Reagan echoed this argument before an evangelical group in Dallas when he said (in what I devoutly hope was campaign rhetoric): "Well, it is a theory. It is a scientific theory only, and it has in recent years been challenged in the world of science--that is, not believed in the scientific community to be as infallible as it once was."

Well evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape-like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered.

Moreover, "fact" doesn't mean "absolute certainty"; there ain't no such animal in an exciting and complex world. The final proofs of logic and mathematics flow deductively from stated premises and achieve certainty only because they are not about the empirical world. Evolutionists make no claim for perpetual truth, though creationists often do (and then attack us falsely for a style of argument that they themselves favor). In science "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional consent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms.

Evolutionists have been very clear about this distinction of fact and theory from the very beginning, if only because we have always acknowledged how far we are from completely understanding the mechanisms (theory) by which evolution (fact) occurred. Darwin continually emphasized the difference between his two great and separate accomplishments: establishing the fact of evolution, and proposing a theory--natural selection--to explain the mechanism of evolution.

- Stephen J. Gould, " Evolution as Fact and Theory"; Discover, May 1981

Gould is stating the prevailing view of the scientific community. In other words, the experts on evolution consider it to be a fact. This is not an idea that originated with Gould as the following quotations indicate:
Let me try to make crystal clear what is established beyond reasonable doubt, and what needs further study, about evolution. Evolution as a process that has always gone on in the history of the earth can be doubted only by those who are ignorant of the evidence or are resistant to evidence, owing to emotional blocks or to plain bigotry. By contrast, the mechanisms that bring evolution about certainly need study and clarification. There are no alternatives to evolution as history that can withstand critical examination. Yet we are constantly learning new and important facts about evolutionary mechanisms.

- Theodosius Dobzhansky "Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution", American Biology Teacher vol. 35 (March 1973) reprinted in Evolution versus Creationism, J. Peter Zetterberg ed., ORYX Press, Phoenix AZ 1983

Also:
It is time for students of the evolutionary process, especially those who have been misquoted and used by the creationists, to state clearly that evolution is a fact, not theory, and that what is at issue within biology are questions of details of the process and the relative importance of different mechanisms of evolution. It is a fact that the earth with liquid water, is more than 3.6 billion years old. It is a fact that cellular life has been around for at least half of that period and that organized multicellular life is at least 800 million years old. It is a fact that major life forms now on earth were not at all represented in the past. There were no birds or mammals 250 million years ago. It is a fact that major life forms of the past are no longer living. There used to be dinosaurs and Pithecanthropus, and there are none now. It is a fact that all living forms come from previous living forms. Therefore, all present forms of life arose from ancestral forms that were different. Birds arose from nonbirds and humans from nonhumans. No person who pretends to any understanding of the natural world can deny these facts any more than she or he can deny that the earth is round, rotates on its axis, and revolves around the sun.

The controversies about evolution lie in the realm of the relative importance of various forces in molding evolution.

- R. C. Lewontin "Evolution/Creation Debate: A Time for Truth" Bioscience 31, 559 (1981) reprinted in Evolution versus Creationism, op cit.


talkorigins

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0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

subject line says it all Lefta Dissenter Jan 2012 #1
Damn Solly Mack Jan 2012 #2
Neither should be taught in grade school. RegieRocker Jan 2012 #3
Neither? As in Creationism, which is not a scientific theory? GoneOffShore Jan 2012 #5
Nada, none, zilch, zero = neither RegieRocker Jan 2012 #6
Can you provide just a single example of scientific evidence for creationism? cleanhippie Jan 2012 #13
He's checking his banana theory Ichingcarpenter Jan 2012 #16
All quiet on the banana theory front. GoneOffShore Jan 2012 #25
Creationism isn't that complex; "a god did it!" is the deus ex machina, so to speak, of Creationism REP Jan 2012 #27
What, you don't believe the ancient god Atum masturbated and ejaculated the universe? backscatter712 Jan 2012 #30
I disagree RainDog Jan 2012 #7
Are you suggesting that both creationism and evolution hyphenate Jan 2012 #9
You know very little about evolution. It is way too complex for any one person to RegieRocker Jan 2012 #10
It is obvious that you have no idea what you are talking about. cleanhippie Jan 2012 #14
"Both sides believe in hearsay." Really? GoneOffShore Jan 2012 #17
Suffering from the same ailment as some creationists, some evolutionists top them RegieRocker Jan 2012 #31
Evolution is a scientific theory - Creationism is religion. GoneOffShore Jan 2012 #37
I don't think you know what a theory is. TransitJohn Jan 2012 #67
I studied bioanthropology and genetics RainDog Jan 2012 #21
You should arrange another session ypur ignorance on the matter is astounding. RegieRocker Jan 2012 #41
LOL RainDog Jan 2012 #49
stay tunneled visioned. RegieRocker Jan 2012 #51
Um, they had these pictures when I was in school justiceischeap Jan 2012 #24
The top picture you provide reminded me of a speech given by Richard Dawkins at ... A HERETIC I AM Jan 2012 #62
Science as hearsay - or did you mean heresy? REP Jan 2012 #28
Oh gimme a break. backscatter712 Jan 2012 #29
That is quite the statement there Aerows Jan 2012 #38
I don't have to be a biologist to understand hyphenate Jan 2012 #40
You had better focus your attention elsewhere because my response was a re-attack at those RegieRocker Jan 2012 #61
Dinosaur bones are "hearsay" Politicalboi Jul 2012 #76
Than I guess we shouldn't teach gravity, either obamanut2012 Jan 2012 #12
The law of gavity is on its way out soon to be replaced RegieRocker Jan 2012 #42
Um no MattBaggins Jan 2012 #15
You afraid kids will learn how seedless oranges are created? JoePhilly Jan 2012 #22
WTF? Ohio Joe Jan 2012 #23
Ah, the mainstream-media model... backscatter712 Jan 2012 #26
Evolution is a twisted fucked up idea that doesnt prove anything but only to morons. RegieRocker Jan 2012 #32
Why don't you take a college biology class and try again... n/t backscatter712 Jan 2012 #33
My thoughts exactly Aerows Jan 2012 #39
and evolution has nothing to do with the beginning of life. That shows how much you know. RegieRocker Jan 2012 #43
evolution doesn't argue first causes RainDog Jan 2012 #46
Agreed Aerows Jan 2012 #52
gravity is being replaced. He informed us of this upthread. Seriously. DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2012 #72
Don't shove beliefs on me Aerows Jan 2012 #47
Wow Aerows Jan 2012 #48
You're an "agnostic"? lulz PVnRT Jan 2012 #58
I support neither being taught in schools. Learn to read. RegieRocker Jan 2012 #60
Regie my friend... DimmerCritic Jan 2012 #68
If that were the case hyphenate Jan 2012 #69
are you joking? RainDog Jan 2012 #35
You make all sorts of pronouncements and back them up with nothing. arbusto_baboso Jan 2012 #44
disregard my earlier question. You display a complete lack of knowledge r.e. evolution DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2012 #71
Kicking this thread because of THIS particular post. Wow. 2ndAmForComputers Jul 2012 #75
Wow, I didn't think we had many IDers here at DU PVnRT Jan 2012 #57
Albert Einstein RegieRocker Jan 2012 #63
and before you go there and.... RegieRocker Jan 2012 #64
atheism is not the issue here RainDog Jan 2012 #74
Bullshit. TransitJohn Jan 2012 #66
your reasoning? DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2012 #70
Reallly and which of the two creation stories in the Bible should be taught? grantcart Dec 2012 #77
Meanwhile, in Kansas, all is well. proud2BlibKansan Jan 2012 #4
Flying Spaghetti Monster applauds your effort! piratefish08 Jan 2012 #11
This is typical of creationists. Archae Jan 2012 #8
Is this a serious attack? brooklynite Jan 2012 #18
I'm not sure. hyphenate Jan 2012 #19
How dare schools teach science in science classes. killbotfactory Jan 2012 #20
Post removed Post removed Jan 2012 #34
why are you posting creationist b.s. here? n/t RainDog Jan 2012 #36
The sad thing is Quartermass Jan 2012 #45
And you gotta love how the fundies redefine the vocabulary... backscatter712 Jan 2012 #50
They tried that silly nonsense here in Georgia a few years ago and Liquorice Jan 2012 #53
This is a good example of why I pony up for a secular private school for my boy. aikoaiko Jan 2012 #54
but for those who cannot afford private school RainDog Jan 2012 #55
I'm not abandoning the public school kids. aikoaiko Jan 2012 #56
I understand. it's not you, singular RainDog Jan 2012 #59
Evolution is Satan's religion. . That B Calm Jan 2012 #65
Fine, but the states that teach ID should not have their schools accredited DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2012 #73
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