General Discussion

Douglas Carpenter

(20,226 posts)

102. it is dishonest to represent the majority as benefiting when that is clearly not the case

Sun Jan 8, 2012, 09:02 AM

Jan 2012

I agree that there is a percentage that does indeed benefit. And to be fair – not only the richest and most powerful – there is in fact a new commercial class – but they live in a very different world than the vast majority who will never be part of this new economy. I was just in Manila last week and - oh yes there are more chic shops, luxury goods and American style chain restaurants than ever before. Compared to my first trip in 1994 it is really quite staggering. But at the cost of massive dislocation and an inflationary spiral that has the overwhelming majority living in greater desperation than ever. Virtually overnight we are seeing the world of the small farmer and small domestic manufacturer and retailer swallowed up in the tide of globalization and the ordinary person unable to keep pace with speculation driven inflation.

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Since Free Traders believe that America should lower its standard of living to help the third world [View all] Zalatix Jan 2012 OP

+10000 FreakinDJ Jan 2012 #1

I call the free-traders' position what it is: TREASON. Laelth Jan 2012 #2

Oh now you're an isolationist. <sarcasm> Zalatix Jan 2012 #7

+1 I never understood those arguments right here on DU either... Little Star Jan 2012 #23

They never think about the consequences Zalatix Jan 2012 #28

Yes, treason and pure evil. ananda Jan 2012 #17

and Administrations that "Cook the Books" to say it doesn't harm Americans / America FreakinDJ Jan 2012 #29

It is fraud. It is also treason. Laelth Jan 2012 #39

Absolutely! AnotherMcIntosh Jan 2012 #81

Amen--Treason it is. We need TARIFFS now! unlawflcombatnt Jan 2012 #146

About time someone had the guts to say it straight. Many thanks! n/t Zalatix Jan 2012 #147

I beg to differ about the use of resources Catherina Jan 2012 #3

Thanks! We consume the most because of Republican / Conservative principles. Zalatix Jan 2012 #10

I'm a lot harsher than you are Catherina Jan 2012 #34

Thanks, one thing though... Zalatix Jan 2012 #38

Fully understood Catherina Jan 2012 #43

I actually bought a little manual clothes washer at the thrift store I work at. Odin2005 Jan 2012 #57

Do you have a picture of it? Or a similar one? Catherina Jan 2012 #60

Here's a pic of it I found online: Odin2005 Jan 2012 #61

That's so cute Catherina Jan 2012 #67

I used one of those for a few years. Worked a treat. I gave it to a relative living in NYC in a MADem Jan 2012 #80

I like Rosling's view of the washing machine: joshcryer Jan 2012 #76

Been delaying this because it's a long one... Zalatix Jan 2012 #94

Actually Mexico city has harsher smog control nadinbrzezinski Jan 2012 #68

Thanks. I didn't know that Catherina Jan 2012 #71

I never understood how any ordinary citizen could support free trade. n/t Little Star Jan 2012 #4

I've never understood how any working class person could vote repug. One would think it difficult SammyWinstonJack Jan 2012 #21

With the "moderate" Democrats supporting "free" trade all the time Lydia Leftcoast Jan 2012 #165

Shouldn't they start the ball rolling by giving their money to the 1% in other countries? eppur_se_muova Jan 2012 #5

+1 Little Star Jan 2012 #8

+1! Zalatix Jan 2012 #12

I think that they did with the bank bailouts. Some for our 1%. Some for the foreign countries' 1%. AnotherMcIntosh Jan 2012 #82

Somebody has to pay for that 600% profit.... orpupilofnature57 Jan 2012 #6

Shouldnt we as progressives consider ourselves citizens of the world? DCBob Jan 2012 #9

Didn't you read the OP? How about telling this to the poor of America Zalatix Jan 2012 #11

Yes. I dont think these goals are necessarily mutually exclusive. DCBob Jan 2012 #13

So you think that impoverishing America is necessary for this? Zalatix Jan 2012 #14

no. DCBob Jan 2012 #15

If we REALLY cared about the poor in other countries Lydia Leftcoast Jan 2012 #169

As you see, they'll just deny that it is happening kenny blankenship Jan 2012 #18

yup... until it happens to their selfish selves fascisthunter Jan 2012 #42

Exactly. This is a false argument. treestar Jan 2012 #35

When did Washington become the capital of the world, as opposed to the capital of the U.S.? Laelth Jan 2012 #20

February 21-28, 1972 AnotherMcIntosh Jan 2012 #83

Yes. It is not "us vs. them" it is "us AND them". pampango Jan 2012 #22

+1 Little Star Jan 2012 #27

How can we help others when we can't even help our own? n/t Little Star Jan 2012 #25

Free trade does not improve the quality of life of people living in other countries JDPriestly Jan 2012 #33

You're not against free trade, but the industrial revolution itself. treestar Jan 2012 #36

You're setting up a strawman to knock down Populist_Prole Jan 2012 #45

What argument? treestar Jan 2012 #48

Again with the buzzwords playing into the corporatitist's hands Populist_Prole Jan 2012 #58

So what do you propose be done? treestar Jan 2012 #79

They're excluding our workers. Do you get it yet? Zalatix Jan 2012 #88

What do you propose be done? treestar Jan 2012 #111

Tariffs. China uses them against us, we have a right to use them against China. Zalatix Jan 2012 #112

Then why not advocate for that? treestar Jan 2012 #115

I have never run away from arguments. However, you have. Zalatix Jan 2012 #116

You have made not one argument here for the tariff, not one treestar Jan 2012 #118

Let's look at what you previously said, and my questions that you previously avoided Zalatix Jan 2012 #122

Stop having a war with me treestar Jan 2012 #149

My questions came first and I will NOT stop demanding answers to them. EVER. Zalatix Jan 2012 #150

I did not claim that! treestar Jan 2012 #151

It is not a lie, you did say that. And it is documented. Once again: Zalatix Jan 2012 #152

Absurd. America is not the only place jobs originate! treestar Jan 2012 #153

Then you do not understand the nature of our trade deficit. Allow me to explain, with CITES. Zalatix Jan 2012 #154

If the world is dependent on our economy treestar Jan 2012 #155

So you want to talk about that whole 30% of the world's resources thing, eh? Zalatix Jan 2012 #160

Took a while to read first set of links treestar Jan 2012 #157

All your arguments are for putting Americans out of work. Zalatix Jan 2012 #158

"We already have the highest lifestyle in the world" Lydia Leftcoast Jan 2012 #166

OK, but we are still first world treestar Jan 2012 #181

I'm advocating that we should have free trade only with those countries JDPriestly Jan 2012 #73

A TRADE war? We're already in a trade war, started by China and other nations. Zalatix Jan 2012 #89

you do that... and drop the progressive moniker fascisthunter Jan 2012 #40

What's disgusting are your insults... DCBob Jan 2012 #44

No... your disgusting insult is that we as Progressives should curtail American standards of living fascisthunter Jan 2012 #49

I never said that. DCBob Jan 2012 #54

sure... good bye! fascisthunter Jan 2012 #55

What about OUR working class? What about us? Why should we go unemployed for this? Zalatix Jan 2012 #90

We shouldn't. If trade policy is done correctly and fairly is should benefit both sides. DCBob Jan 2012 #97

Well said. AnotherMcIntosh Jan 2012 #84

Dear free traders, here are more Americans losing jobs to make the rest of the world a better place. Zalatix Jan 2012 #16

You see we are makeing their lives better. Just think about those happy people at Foxcon. wandy Jan 2012 #24

It is interesting how folks paint essentially slavery as altruistic and "progressive" TheKentuckian Jan 2012 #78

You know, when ever a "centrist" or right-winger says that a certain policy will Lydia Leftcoast Jan 2012 #174

Here are three more Americans that free traders should speak to Zalatix Jan 2012 #19

That's a silk stalking horse... Skidmore Jan 2012 #26

And, let's see a few free traders donate all their money to projects in JDPriestly Jan 2012 #30

You nailed it exactly. Populist_Prole Jan 2012 #51

One can NOT be FOR "Free Trade" and Pro-LABOR at the same time. bvar22 Jan 2012 #31

Tell that to the Germans. n/t pampango Jan 2012 #62

If anyone has forgotten, maybe one of them will remind us by repeating what they said. AnotherMcIntosh Jan 2012 #85

What Skidmore says. PETRUS Jan 2012 #32

Paul Krugman supports free trade. Nye Bevan Jan 2012 #37

Oh no.... you got that poster! fascisthunter Jan 2012 #41

Doesnt Krugman's opinion mean anything to you on this issue? DCBob Jan 2012 #47

no it doesn't.... his point of view on this ISN'T progressive... it is flawed fascisthunter Jan 2012 #52

sure genius.. DCBob Jan 2012 #56

Krugman has begun to change his mind on outsourcing, so you're wrong on this, too. Zalatix Jan 2012 #92

from your linked article.. DCBob Jan 2012 #96

A 25% tariff would be far more than what we've done so far. Zalatix Jan 2012 #113

Hey fascisthunter, Krugman has started to turn away from defending free trade. Zalatix Jan 2012 #91

Not anymore! Populist_Prole Jan 2012 #50

Paul Krugman supports free trade?... NOT bvar22 Jan 2012 #64

"Krugman's views on free trade have provoked considerable ire from the anti-globalism movement". Nye Bevan Jan 2012 #66

No one here is advocating Smoot-Hawley. Elwood P Dowd Jan 2012 #72

Thank you for dispelling the Smoot-Hawley myth! Zalatix Jan 2012 #129

Krugman called for a 25% tariff on China. I posted the cite already. That's NOT free trade. Zalatix Jan 2012 #125

Has he proposed exiting NAFTA? Nye Bevan Jan 2012 #135

Free Traders are never the Ones lowering their own Standards of living for the World fascisthunter Jan 2012 #46

The dirty little secret you NEVER hear uttered by the media or pols. n/t Populist_Prole Jan 2012 #53

Post removed Post removed Jan 2012 #59

What a total pile of BS! Elwood P Dowd Jan 2012 #63

When you have to resort to such blatantly stupid ad hominem.. girl gone mad Jan 2012 #70

No, because that's an ad hominem argument. But, if that is their position, even a broken clock AnotherMcIntosh Jan 2012 #86

Thanks for posting this! LongTomH Jan 2012 #65

Many thanks LongTomH! Zalatix Jan 2012 #114

I have a solution to this that rarely comes in nadinbrzezinski Jan 2012 #69

Repubs would hate that idea (the mythical North American Union is a mainstay of bircher fears). pampango Jan 2012 #75

Alas it is in the rarely enforced side agreements of nafta nadinbrzezinski Jan 2012 #77

Free Trade doesn't help the Third World or First World. white_wolf Jan 2012 #74

There is NO "free trade". World trade is controlled by a cabal of multinational corporations. AdHocSolver Jan 2012 #87

Regarding foreign made designer clothes Hippo_Tron Jan 2012 #117

Mexico is a great circular thing since they love to bitch about immigrants. Sirveri Jan 2012 #93

Here's an uncomfortable question for you Spider Jerusalem Jan 2012 #95

+1 DCBob Jan 2012 #98

that would all be a valid point if "globalization" was improving the quality of life in the third Douglas Carpenter Jan 2012 #99

In some cases it clearly is. DCBob Jan 2012 #100

it is dishonest to represent the majority as benefiting when that is clearly not the case Douglas Carpenter Jan 2012 #102

Funny, I was just in the Philippines also. DCBob Jan 2012 #103

I would suggest taking a trip off the beaten path a little bit and away from the tourist belt Douglas Carpenter Jan 2012 #104

I certainly do get off the beaten path.. I have relatives in the province far from any major city. DCBob Jan 2012 #105

Actually call center workers in the Phlippines make about $500 / month. DCBob Jan 2012 #106

most of those jobs would be for only 6 months, would they not? Douglas Carpenter Jan 2012 #107

Yes, I think thats correct but from what I understand there are always new contracts. DCBob Jan 2012 #109

While there is a "rising middle class" in China and India, the poor are worse off than ever Lydia Leftcoast Jan 2012 #167

Interesting perspective. I haven't heard of those issues. Zalatix Jan 2012 #168

Yes, that is true also in the Philippines. Prices of almost everything are going up. DCBob Jan 2012 #177

Then what do you have to say about this? Zalatix Jan 2012 #180

Most of America's rich corporate elite are greedy bastards. DCBob Jan 2012 #183

And despite that you feel we should keep sending jobs overseas? Zalatix Jan 2012 #184

Yes, if there are proper controls and regulations in place. DCBob Jan 2012 #185

Um, there's no proper way to send American jobs out of the country. None. Zero. Nada. Zalatix Jan 2012 #186

That's an absurd statement. DCBob Jan 2012 #187

Globalization will collapse under the weight of its own absurdity. Zalatix Jan 2012 #188

I suspect the growing middle classes of China and India would probably disagree with you Spider Jerusalem Jan 2012 #119

The vast majority of Indians and Chinese are not participating in it except as victims of Douglas Carpenter Jan 2012 #126

you have no answer for these facts Zalatix Jan 2012 #128

What exactly has that got to do with the topic at hand? Spider Jerusalem Jan 2012 #130

It has everything to do with the topic at hand and yes, you absolutely do know that. Zalatix Jan 2012 #133

Welcome to globalisation Spider Jerusalem Jan 2012 #136

Food crises, pollution, slave labor & child labor are acceptable because "welcome to globalization"? Zalatix Jan 2012 #138

Reading comprehension failure Spider Jerusalem Jan 2012 #141

Reading comprehension failure.... where, again? Zalatix Jan 2012 #143

We are asked to decline our standard of living so the 1% can get more high density Jan 2012 #101

That's facile and nonsensical honestly Spider Jerusalem Jan 2012 #120

The top 1-5% of China and India are buying cars - made by slaves and high pollution Zalatix Jan 2012 #123

There is a reason why you won't respond to this... my response is even MORE uncomfortable. Zalatix Jan 2012 #127

You seem to make a lot of stupid assumptions. Spider Jerusalem Jan 2012 #131

You seem to give a lot of cowardly non-answers. Zalatix Jan 2012 #132

Stupid assumptions, again Spider Jerusalem Jan 2012 #134

Cowardly non-answers, again Zalatix Jan 2012 #137

I said America is using 30% of the world's resources. Which it is. Spider Jerusalem Jan 2012 #140

Your argument has so many errors, where to start! And can you back up anything with cites? Anything? Zalatix Jan 2012 #145

We're supposed to be glad because our poor are "better off" than those in India? Lydia Leftcoast Jan 2012 #170

You obviously refused to drink the kool-aid. Zalatix Jan 2012 #171

I have actual experience working blue collar jobs and volunteering in programs Lydia Leftcoast Jan 2012 #173

That's what I want to get into more of... community organizing to create jobs, to be specific. Zalatix Jan 2012 #175

The ProSense Jan 2012 #108

If I could give up my iphone to pull a family out of poverty, I would mdmc Jan 2012 #110

It's called foreign aid. Zalatix Jan 2012 #139

I'm a one worlder myself, but I have nothing against protecting the economy mdmc Jan 2012 #142

I'm not a one-worlder. I don't want China having a vote on my country's reproductive rights. Zalatix Jan 2012 #144

Thank you varelse Jan 2012 #121

These homeless students are making sacrifices to help the poor in other nations... Zalatix Jan 2012 #124

My church has just started a program for homeless *community college* Lydia Leftcoast Jan 2012 #176

Many unemployed will never be able to get another job - thank outsourcing for this! Zalatix Jan 2012 #148

I imagine many people rationalize that imaginary, wholly made-up red and black lines... LanternWaste Jan 2012 #156

I showed you a lot of America's poor and jobless in this thread. Why don't you tell them that? Zalatix Jan 2012 #159

Building tariff walls didn't help any country in the 1930's (except Germany but that had more to do pampango Jan 2012 #161

There is an example of a nation using tariffs to become rich. And the Smoot-Hawley story is a myth. Zalatix Jan 2012 #162

Next? Smoot-Hawley was bad republican policy. That much is not a myth. FDR knew it. pampango Jan 2012 #163

Blame foreigners? Hardly. It's about protecting American jobs. Zalatix Jan 2012 #164

Sounds like you would have been fighting FDR when he was dismantling tariffs in the 1930's and pampango Jan 2012 #178

Europe's economic model is putting them deep in debt. Fail. Zalatix Jan 2012 #179

FDR wasn't doing anything about tariffs after World War II Lydia Leftcoast Jan 2012 #189

I see a lot of affluent Americans who have never met a real poor American or Lydia Leftcoast Jan 2012 #172

Look at this very thread. Free Traders FEAR to talk about the poor in Western nations. Zalatix Jan 2012 #182