General Discussion

cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)

10. The problem with a fence is not that it is unjust, it is

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 11:15 AM

Oct 2012

that it is creepy and ineffective.

Ideally, we should have no unauthorized immigration. As with many things, however, perfect enforcement would degrade life in other ways making it bad policy overall, and a border fence is in that category.

As policy, however, we shouldn't be more or less lenient based on the economy because unauthorized immigration should never be an economic policy tool.

If the jobs market was so strong that the domestic economy cannot create more businesses without sparking a very high level of inflation (a scenario we may never see again) then a government might decide that it is in the national interest to increase the number of documented laborers admitted.

That said, in the real world bad economies increase political pressure for immigration enforcement, so there is a real-world correlation.

But as formal policy it would not be a good thing, in my view.

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Free traders will never answer this... if immigrants are needed here... [View all] Zalatix Oct 2012 OP

I guess it depends on the career sharp_stick Oct 2012 #1

Forgive me, but isn't it obvious that it depends on the career? Orrex Oct 2012 #19

They are treestar Oct 2012 #2

Very few. Nothing compared to those who come here. Zalatix Oct 2012 #5

That's how America developed though treestar Oct 2012 #6

Who gives a shit, really? We have over 10 million unemployed here. Zalatix Oct 2012 #7

Maybe right now treestar Oct 2012 #13

Immigration almost stopped during the 1930s kiva Oct 2012 #16

You're one to talk about a one-track mind. Take off your rose-colored glasses for a second. Zalatix Oct 2012 #17

Will you quit with the personal shit and address the issue treestar Oct 2012 #23

You started the emotional, personal attack crap with your "one-track mind" comment. Zalatix Oct 2012 #26

I'm not reading all that treestar Oct 2012 #32

"Arguing over who started it"? In short, you can dish out the attacks but you can't take it. Zalatix Oct 2012 #36

Emphatic DURec for posts # 17, 26, and 36 by Zalatix... bvar22 Oct 2012 #49

Let me ask you something. Since you apparently said this: sabrina 1 Oct 2012 #130

my neighbors across the street have a homeless encampment behind their back fence. the HiPointDem Oct 2012 #113

That hardly means we are not the richest nation on earth treestar Oct 2012 #119

This message was self-deleted by its author HiPointDem Oct 2012 #120

Yea liberalmike27 Oct 2012 #15

All for cheaper prices treestar Oct 2012 #20

We will never sell China more than they sell us. Please stop entertaining that fantasy. Zalatix Oct 2012 #27

Bingo. I can't believe they still trot out that same canard about exporting our way out of this Populist_Prole Oct 2012 #41

What would that be? tama Oct 2012 #75

That is a popular fiction. America developed because we stole some of the best real estate on earth. Egalitarian Thug Oct 2012 #107

Millions of Americans do live and work outside the US grantcart Oct 2012 #3

We have over 10 million unemployed here in America. Zalatix Oct 2012 #8

your OP isn't about 10 million jobless its about a zenophobic and hate filled rant against grantcart Oct 2012 #14

My post is NOT xenophobic. Your dishonest post shows a total CONTEMPT for American workers. Zalatix Oct 2012 #18

Seriously, fuck calling people xenophobic for looking out for US jobs. nt Union Scribe Oct 2012 #28

I have a problem with this post joeglow3 Oct 2012 #155

But but Berserker Oct 2012 #21

XENOPHOBE!!! Zalatix Oct 2012 #24

Yup. K&R You are SO on a roll with this thread. closeupready Oct 2012 #73

I stand on the shoulders of giants. LOTS of DUers have helped me get informed on this issue. Zalatix Oct 2012 #74

I don't consider immigration a free trade issue cthulu2016 Oct 2012 #4

What about undocumented immigration? Nuclear Unicorn Oct 2012 #9

The problem with a fence is not that it is unjust, it is cthulu2016 Oct 2012 #10

Other nations have stricter immigration laws than we do. Zalatix Oct 2012 #11

And they are welcome to cthulu2016 Oct 2012 #12

Before we talk immigration tama Oct 2012 #22

Millions, yes you read write, millions nadinbrzezinski Oct 2012 #25

Canada requires you to have a job to move there. They don't need a job to move here. Zalatix Oct 2012 #30

Really, have you ever tried to get a green card? nadinbrzezinski Oct 2012 #34

How does that compare to being poor and moving to Canada? Or Mexico? Or China? Or... Poland? Zalatix Oct 2012 #37

Now that you mention it I could move back to any EU country nadinbrzezinski Oct 2012 #40

You may not be a 'xenophobe' but the term gets thrown around for good reason. pampango Oct 2012 #58

Like I said before, fine, bring 'em in, it's not like we have any jobs. Zalatix Oct 2012 #59

Are you a truck driver? Are you willing to live in the middle of rural Canada? Nikia Oct 2012 #87

Bullshit Union Scribe Oct 2012 #31

Again you are conflating above board legal immigration nadinbrzezinski Oct 2012 #35

Less than 2 million. There are more Canadian citizens working in the U.S. than U.S. citizens Egalitarian Thug Oct 2012 #108

Not according to state nadinbrzezinski Oct 2012 #111

What is, according to State, the number? I got mine from tax records (IRS). n/t Egalitarian Thug Oct 2012 #121

4-6 millions nadinbrzezinski Oct 2012 #124

Speaking as a foreigner who lives in the U.S. and hires people from all over the world for jobs WilmywoodNCparalegal Oct 2012 #29

Oh my goodness treestar Oct 2012 #33

I would not mind nadinbrzezinski Oct 2012 #38

Oh boy. Zalatix Oct 2012 #39

There are reams of books on immigration patterns nadinbrzezinski Oct 2012 #42

Jesus, I'm going to faint. Zalatix Oct 2012 #43

Sorry, I forgot the German colony nadinbrzezinski Oct 2012 #44

I just want parity between us looking for jobs "over there" and them looking for jobs here. Zalatix Oct 2012 #45

That is the US, by tradition we have been a nation nadinbrzezinski Oct 2012 #48

You know what, fuck it, let them come. There's no jobs but let 'em come. Zalatix Oct 2012 #50

You can bow all you want nadinbrzezinski Oct 2012 #52

I don't think our peaches will go to $10 a pound Zalatix Oct 2012 #60

What also happened in the last depression was... nadinbrzezinski Oct 2012 #79

Well, this time around the problem is a total lack of jobs. Zalatix Oct 2012 #80

How incredibly ignorant can you be nadinbrzezinski Oct 2012 #81

Okay, hold, stop. Now YOU are the one who is ignorant. Zalatix Oct 2012 #84

Take it with the Christian Monitor nadinbrzezinski Oct 2012 #85

No comments about immigrants unionizing? No comments about immigrant factory workers? Zalatix Oct 2012 #88

Good bye, I have had it nadinbrzezinski Oct 2012 #89

Yup, goodbye. You've been busted spouting falsehoods and trying to misdirect the discussion. Zalatix Oct 2012 #90

"If I were an unemployed American, I'd move across the border to get a job if I could." NCTraveler Oct 2012 #131

So what are the unemployed to do here? Starve? Zalatix Oct 2012 #133

You are clearly not serious. nt. NCTraveler Oct 2012 #135

You clearly have no solutions to offer our unemployed. Zalatix Oct 2012 #136

Nothing that will top your yearning to send Americans to Mexico for employment. NCTraveler Oct 2012 #137

Why shouldn't they go where the jobs are? Where would you say to go? Zalatix Oct 2012 #139

Show me the labor statistics for Mexico. And the violence rate while you are at it. NCTraveler Oct 2012 #153

I asked you the question first: where are our unemployed going to go? Zalatix Oct 2012 #154

This message was self-deleted by its author HiPointDem Oct 2012 #114

There are few things easier in the world than being an American working abroad, Sen. Walter Sobchak Oct 2012 #64

Nice fantasy, that. Zalatix Oct 2012 #65

Please list the countries in which you were denied work visas. Sen. Walter Sobchak Oct 2012 #67

Please list the countries that let in C-students from America to work there. Zalatix Oct 2012 #68

So you acknowledge you have never sought or been denied foreign employment Sen. Walter Sobchak Oct 2012 #69

So you admit you were blowing smoke! That will do. Zalatix Oct 2012 #70

What is lame is your persisant appeals to authority on a multitude of subjects Sen. Walter Sobchak Oct 2012 #71

You are not one to accuse anyone of being ignorant, considering you're CONSTANTLY in error. Zalatix Oct 2012 #72

EU tama Oct 2012 #95

This is ofcourse qualified with the expectation you're legally sponsored by an employer... Sen. Walter Sobchak Oct 2012 #96

Or work the factory line. nt tama Oct 2012 #97

Canada has a "points based" visa system, and admits virtually ZERO unskilled immigrants. Romulox Oct 2012 #140

Who said anything about unskilled labor? Sen. Walter Sobchak Oct 2012 #152

If I could teleport I'd eat in Italy everyday abelenkpe Oct 2012 #76

Why should people -- americans, indians, or anyone else -- be forced to move halfway around HiPointDem Oct 2012 #46

Good points! X 1000 Zalatix Oct 2012 #47

Your point tama Oct 2012 #61

Happening right now abelenkpe Oct 2012 #77

it's happened all through history. it's what capitalism does -- destroy communities, families and HiPointDem Oct 2012 #78

Why because it makes the rich (just a bit!) richer, of course. nt Romulox Oct 2012 #141

I will leave it to others to decide what is fair and unfair. I would just like to be honest ... twins.fan Oct 2012 #51

+1. they're liars and they should be called on it on a daily basis. history shows very clearly how HiPointDem Oct 2012 #146

There are millions of Americans working abroad. And, I don't mean just the US Army. leveymg Oct 2012 #53

A surplus of $100 billion and yet tons of American STEM workers are jobless, and wages not rising? Zalatix Oct 2012 #54

Current STEM (IT industry, medicine) unemployment is 4.5-5.5% leveymg Oct 2012 #55

O'rly? Zalatix Oct 2012 #56

VDARE is not a reliable source. It's an anti-immigrant blog. leveymg Oct 2012 #57

Read DATA, what is this thing you speak off? nadinbrzezinski Oct 2012 #83

Nice site you linked to. NCTraveler Oct 2012 #134

3 to 6 million *living* abroad, not *working*. < than 2% of the us population and some are HiPointDem Oct 2012 #115

If 50% are employed, that's still millions of Americans working abroad. leveymg Oct 2012 #128

if half are working, it's .4 to .96% of the total US population. whereas about 8% of the us HiPointDem Oct 2012 #132

Look at it this way: what percentage of the current accounts balance is $170 billion? That's the leveymg Oct 2012 #138

55% of our global trade in services exports comes from 1) travel, passenger fares & HiPointDem Oct 2012 #145

If you think 10 million US jobs is "a pittance", then you may just have a point. leveymg Oct 2012 #147

show me the evidence of global trade in service creating 10 million jobs in the us for americans. HiPointDem Oct 2012 #148

So the roughly 7 million US Expatriates don't work for a living? Sen. Walter Sobchak Oct 2012 #62

That is a PITTANCE compared to the number of immigrants we have here. Zalatix Oct 2012 #63

you said "why aren't Americans needed for jobs elsewhere?" Sen. Walter Sobchak Oct 2012 #66

not if they're retirees or students. the country with the largest number of expats = mexico. HiPointDem Oct 2012 #116

"Workers of the WORLD Unite" is still the answer. Tierra_y_Libertad Oct 2012 #82

Bingo, but that ain't gonna happen unless nadinbrzezinski Oct 2012 #86

You might want to read this, then Zalatix Oct 2012 #91

Immigrant unionizing tama Oct 2012 #93

I've heard of them, but not a lot about them. Thanks for the info! Zalatix Oct 2012 #94

Here Zorra Oct 2012 #92

How's that Know-Nothingism working out for you there? Spider Jerusalem Oct 2012 #98

Socratically, obviously tama Oct 2012 #99

... Spider Jerusalem Oct 2012 #100

Interesting tama Oct 2012 #101

How's the half-truths working out for you? Zalatix Oct 2012 #102

"not nearly"? You're wrong, actually Spider Jerusalem Oct 2012 #103

How intellectually dishonest of you. Zalatix Oct 2012 #104

Not intellectually dishonest at all Spider Jerusalem Oct 2012 #105

I'm not moving any goalposts. I was talking about immigrants, period, legal or not. Zalatix Oct 2012 #106

Have you had a look at the economic situation in Europe? Spider Jerusalem Oct 2012 #109

Learn to read. I was not talking about Governments determining what countries people emigrate to. Zalatix Oct 2012 #110

They aren't American jobs if it's a multinational corporation. Spider Jerusalem Oct 2012 #112

the economy has always been global. HiPointDem Oct 2012 #117

"They aren't American jobs if it's a multinational corporation." You can go tell that fairy tale to Zalatix Oct 2012 #122

"Unionise the world's working class"... Spider Jerusalem Oct 2012 #123

You just keep telling yourself that. Zalatix Oct 2012 #125

It's funny how your "solution" to poverty in other countries makes the rich in the US richer. Romulox Oct 2012 #151

The neo-liberalism has given us 30 plus years of stagnant wages, decreasing lifespans for children, Romulox Oct 2012 #142

There are other factors at work there. Spider Jerusalem Oct 2012 #149

Um Spidey? The complaint isn't about the size of the GDP. It's about INEQUALITY. Wrap your Romulox Oct 2012 #150

sure are a lot of cheap-labor democrats these days. 'investors' i surmise. HiPointDem Oct 2012 #118

It's Friedman's "Flat Earth" philosophy - economics in terms of investment possibilities. haele Oct 2012 #126

A lot of companies do outsource jobs here 4th law of robotics Oct 2012 #127

The unique part of American history is that.... NCTraveler Oct 2012 #129

As the unemployment problem grows, that's going to change. Zalatix Oct 2012 #144

I know, I know. I drive my KIA SOUL all over the place, asking people "Where are the jobs????" Romulox Oct 2012 #143