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sir pball

(5,340 posts)

113. I don't think it's *always* nurture

Sat Oct 6, 2012, 03:35 PM

Oct 2012

"Innate goodness" was perhaps a poor choice of words...I mean to say that I do believe some people are just "born that way" and no matter what kind of environment they're raised in, or what effort (support, therapy) is put into them, will make them "functioning human beings". Terminally broken. Yeah, I do have a healthy cynical streak.

That being said, I'm entirely fine with the segregated environment these kids NEED to be put into being something much more evaluative, supportive, and rehabilitative than anything I tossed out offhand earlier; but as it stands right now I would call them monstrous and entirely unfit to be exposed to society at large. If they can be rehabilitated, redeemed as members of society, that's all the better and I do support spending the time and money to work towards that, but to act this horrifically at 13 there's something more going on than normal juvenile immaturity and it might very well NOT be fixable.

Any sources I can find are unfortunately light on details about their backgrounds, is there any more information available?

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Should a 13-year old murderer be tried as an adult? [View all] Archae Oct 2012 OP

Yes.... skeewee08 Oct 2012 #1

The ... usually means you have more info. Which of course you left out. Logical Oct 2012 #28

I usually err on the side of caution. sadbear Oct 2012 #2

No. n/t Iris Oct 2012 #3

They're not adults. Warpy Oct 2012 #4

I dislike this whole "trying them as an adult" concept. Nye Bevan Oct 2012 #5

And release the murdering juvenile in five years Brewinblue Oct 2012 #17

I wish... Lucy Goosey Oct 2012 #23

I'm not sure that is the choice. Recent studies have found juveniles are punished MORE harshly Iris Oct 2012 #36

Problem is the average adult time served (10-12 years)... TheMadMonk Oct 2012 #47

I suspect that's because victims of adult killers tend to be less sympathetic ButterflyBlood Oct 2012 #67

I think your example of a woman killing an abusive husband is faulty. Iris Oct 2012 #71

How about an 11 year old psychopath? A 10 year old psychopath? Nye Bevan Oct 2012 #41

Yet if they are truly a psychopath, they are beyond help Drahthaardogs Oct 2012 #121

Call me a bleeding heart liberal if you like, Nye Bevan Oct 2012 #122

Agreed. A human life has been taken. Is that any less offensive because the murderer is 13? CakeGrrl Oct 2012 #49

Exactly. Iris Oct 2012 #72

Agreed GreenPartyVoter Oct 2012 #114

Now you stay classy, you hear? march starling Oct 2012 #115

Thanks. You are correct. I have edited my post to remove the profanity. Nye Bevan Oct 2012 #116

I'm a firm believer that if they are too young to sign legal contracts DJ13 Oct 2012 #6

+1 josh3693 Oct 2012 #14

Absolutely not! Betsy Ross Oct 2012 #7

"Tried as adults" means "possible death penalty" in many states. porphyrian Oct 2012 #8

Not anymore Nevernose Oct 2012 #128

Yes. Grave Grumbler Oct 2012 #9

LOL, thanks for the detailed analysis. I am convinced now. Logical Oct 2012 #27

That's why I'm here. Grave Grumbler Oct 2012 #31

Usually no, but... josh3693 Oct 2012 #10

It Depends... WillyT Oct 2012 #11

No! Agnosticsherbet Oct 2012 #12

might be a reason for it. former-republican Oct 2012 #56

They should be tried as children, even if that requires they be set free Agnosticsherbet Oct 2012 #63

13 , 14 ,15 years old that murder people in cold blood former-republican Oct 2012 #70

Absolutely treestar Oct 2012 #86

These children were created by their society... Agnosticsherbet Oct 2012 #93

It's even more horrifying to have a kid killing than an adult treestar Oct 2012 #95

Try living in an inners city in deep poverty... Agnosticsherbet Oct 2012 #99

I'm not talking about that, I agree on that treestar Oct 2012 #100

sometimes there is no better way former-republican Oct 2012 #140

13, 14, and 15 year old children are not physically, mentally, emotionally, or psychologically Agnosticsherbet Oct 2012 #89

yeah but, at 13, one knows that its wrong to... MURDER AN OLD LADY WITH A FUCKING HATCHET! dionysus Oct 2012 #91

15 or 25 is not a few. morningfog Oct 2012 #135

Maybe not mature, but definitely broken. sir pball Oct 2012 #82

I did not say innate goodnes...there is no evidence of that in the universe. Agnosticsherbet Oct 2012 #92

I don't think it's *always* nurture sir pball Oct 2012 #112

I don't think it's *always* nurture sir pball Oct 2012 #113

More like thirty or forty, according to some--and I think there's some validity there. MADem Oct 2012 #110

It is really easy to screw up a child... Agnosticsherbet Oct 2012 #117

I think we should work to change the fate of at-risk kids, but once they MADem Oct 2012 #125

Maybe bluestateguy Oct 2012 #13

No. JaneyVee Oct 2012 #15

I strongly disagree with adult sentencing of (miGod!) 13 year-olds. Jackpine Radical Oct 2012 #16

I worked with a 13 year old who tried to shoot his Grandma HockeyMom Oct 2012 #18

Age of reason... Lightbulb_on Oct 2012 #19

Yes, but not with a mandatory life sentence with no chance of parole. mrmpa Oct 2012 #20

So 40 years would be OK with you? Jesus, people dont get it. Logical Oct 2012 #29

What aren't I getting? mrmpa Oct 2012 #33

So a "hard 40" sentence, in kansas, means 40 years with no parole. You think the kid getting out... Logical Oct 2012 #39

Yes AND no. cleanhippie Oct 2012 #88

A century or more ago, fifteen year olds were working full time as a matter of routine. MADem Oct 2012 #103

I think that is true as well. cleanhippie Oct 2012 #105

As I said downthread, lock 'em up. MADem Oct 2012 #109

I think we are on the same page about this. cleanhippie Oct 2012 #119

So if they are found not guilty are they still an adult? Drive? Drink? Etc? Logical Oct 2012 #108

I don't know what you mean. cleanhippie Oct 2012 #118

No. And I don't think the DP should be an option. Taverner Oct 2012 #21

They shouldn't be tried as adults, but should receive the same sentence that an adult would slackmaster Oct 2012 #22

Well if you're going to sentence them as adults then what the hell is the point? eqfan592 Oct 2012 #59

You treat the defendant as a child during the trial, and while incarcerated until age 18 slackmaster Oct 2012 #79

But when it comes to murdering other people treestar Oct 2012 #85

No aint_no_life_nowhere Oct 2012 #24

Why? Lightbulb_on Oct 2012 #37

Do you think a 5 year old doesn't know that it's wrong to hatchet an old woman to death? nt greyl Oct 2012 #44

They don't - at least not like an adult aint_no_life_nowhere Oct 2012 #46

Biggest bullshit question that can be asked when talking about this issue. eqfan592 Oct 2012 #61

I don't claim that they have it in all things... Lightbulb_on Oct 2012 #73

Are they afforded the same rights as adults? Shankapotomus Oct 2012 #25

No. rug Oct 2012 #26

Being 13 is not an excuse for what they did, its a mitigating factor to consider. 1-Old-Man Oct 2012 #30

A 13 year old isn't an adult ohheckyeah Oct 2012 #32

Well, since the AREN'T adults, I'd say no. Laffy Kat Oct 2012 #34

In this scenario, hell yes! NotThisTime Oct 2012 #35

No. Pithlet Oct 2012 #38

No, I don't think a 13-year-old should be tried as an adult fishwax Oct 2012 #40

No. They're not adults. Brickbat Oct 2012 #42

I don't think a 13 yr old should EVER be tried as an adult, MH1 Oct 2012 #43

Do they have to be released by law? former-republican Oct 2012 #57

Children should be tried as children. On the other hand, I don't think that the juvenile justice... JVS Oct 2012 #45

I am glad i do not have to make that choice. hrmjustin Oct 2012 #48

For capital crimes, yes. Someone who killed an old woman with a hatchet cannot be reformed. Pacafishmate Oct 2012 #50

If they are old enough to drive,vote, consent for sex, buy alcohol,sign a contract then hell yes Douglas Carpenter Oct 2012 #51

Depends on the offense. In this case yes they should. dkf Oct 2012 #52

They should be charged as adults Cali_Democrat Oct 2012 #53

No. OriginalGeek Oct 2012 #54

There are a circumstances which we do not have the answers to Savannahmann Oct 2012 #55

International Juvenile Justice Practices Tierra_y_Libertad Oct 2012 #58

they look like stoners =dont know where being under the influence would fit in lunasun Oct 2012 #60

Yes. Absolutely. nt Skip Intro Oct 2012 #62

NO. Th1onein Oct 2012 #64

I think the age to be tried as an adult should be lowered, but no one under that tried as an adult ButterflyBlood Oct 2012 #65

Axe murderers are irredeemable trash. geek tragedy Oct 2012 #66

Never. If they were capable of being adults they would have the rights and responsibilities as such TheKentuckian Oct 2012 #68

15-20, 13years to 18/21 served.... rppper Oct 2012 #69

Heinousness and excusablity seem like separate issues from trial in adult court to me... HereSince1628 Oct 2012 #74

A refreshingly logical position aint_no_life_nowhere Oct 2012 #123

No. A 13 year old is a child. What if the perpertrators had be 9? cali Oct 2012 #75

For me it depends on the depth of premeditation and response after aikoaiko Oct 2012 #76

No in my opinion. aandegoons Oct 2012 #77

NO Brainstormy Oct 2012 #78

Definitely they s/b tried as adults. 13 is old enough to know NOT TO HATCHET PEOPLE! valerief Oct 2012 #80

No. Thier brains are not yet developed to the point of an adults brain. Whovian Oct 2012 #81

They say the brain isn't fully developed until age 25. Union Scribe Oct 2012 #97

You can defer to the wisdom of Ron Paul tjwash Oct 2012 #83

When it comes to murder, yes treestar Oct 2012 #84

My take on it Aerows Oct 2012 #87

Is there a link for this story? nt TBF Oct 2012 #90

Yes, on a case-by-case basis. Union Scribe Oct 2012 #94

Some kids are obvious proto-Psychopaths that can't be rehabilitated. Odin2005 Oct 2012 #96

No. proud2BlibKansan Oct 2012 #98

Teen psychopaths will still be psychopaths at 25. Odin2005 Oct 2012 #106

Works for me. Those kids can't be fixed. nt MADem Oct 2012 #101

No. Iggo Oct 2012 #102

I prefer the accused, especially juviniles, be called accused until they are tried. Bluenorthwest Oct 2012 #104

No. Unless you think they should also be able to do other adult things. Puregonzo1188 Oct 2012 #107

An axe murderer is an axe murderer. MrSlayer Oct 2012 #111

You seriously want to execute middle school children? Nevernose Oct 2012 #129

Why not? MrSlayer Oct 2012 #130

I agree JVS Oct 2012 #132

You would have to undo constitutional law to get your blood thirst on. morningfog Oct 2012 #137

Well, I'm not going to do anything. MrSlayer Oct 2012 #141

God, it's topics like this that make me glad I don't live in the U.S. Evoman Oct 2012 #120

In what earthly paradise of a nation do you find your abode? nt MADem Oct 2012 #127

yep, we should do as in your country...take them aside and talk with them very seriously... yawnmaster Oct 2012 #138

I hate these bull shit threads......... SILVER__FOX52 Oct 2012 #124

+1 Stinky The Clown Oct 2012 #131

NO Skittles Oct 2012 #126

They are not adults. A teenage brain has a lot of developing to do. Exultant Democracy Oct 2012 #133

Neither are facing life without the possibility of parole. morningfog Oct 2012 #134

No- a 13 year old is never an adult Marrah_G Oct 2012 #136

Brain development at 13 years old... yawnmaster Oct 2012 #139