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Azathoth

(4,677 posts)
57. ...
Sat Feb 13, 2021, 04:00 PM
Feb 2021
they might leave the GOP to form another political party

Sure, but this effectively just reestablishes the traditional political landscape by replacing the GOP with a new mainstream conservative party and once again quarantining the Bircher freaks, this time within the tiny remains of the rump GOP. Unfortunately, it's highly unlikely to happen as a practical matter, for the same reason it's unlikely that moderates or progressives and socialists would split from the Dems: they know they'd be splitting their coalition and consigning themselves to irrelevance for the foreseeable future. Most people aren't stupid. They realize it's better to be locked in an alliance where they may have some tiny influence, rather than locked out in the cold where they will have none at all. The only way a meaningful new party is going to emerge is if it can quickly pull enough support to reach some level of parity with its opponents.

that hasn't been true of federal income taxes

Well, two observations. 1) That's a reasonable claim, but it's by no means an accepted fact. 2) If we assume you're correct and federal taxes aren't too high, then you have to consider that fact in light of conservative counterpressure for the last half century. Can we say with reasonable certainty that they wouldn't be too high right now without all those decades of conservatives fighting to lower them?

the tax burden has shifted downward

It certainly has.

There's nothing magical about the private sector

No, but the point is that when one side reflexively looks to government to solve every issue, and other reflexively looks to the private sector, and both sides are rational, you will (hopefully) get a competitive process where the most effective solutions eventually emerge based on demonstrated superiority.

Look at the difference between how Democrats responded to Senator Franken's alleged misdeeds

Yes, and also look at the absolute rage here on DU and elsewhere in the Dem base directed at those Democrats. It's no exaggeration to say that Gillibrand's chances of being on the 2020 ticket pretty much ended after she turned on Franken. The impulse to enforce party loyalty and overlook the misdeeds of those who you agree with ideologically is not exclusive to the GOP.

Incidentally, I'm not arguing that Franken did anything he needed to resign over. But let's take a more troublesome case: Cuomo. Anyone who wasn't a complete party apparatchik knows, and has known for some time, that he screwed up big with his nursing home order. But since there's really no effective, responsible opposition party in NY anymore, there was no serious oversight to hold him accountable in real-time when it might have mattered, and he was allowed to bluster his way through until the press forced him to change course, and then he was allowed to conceal the effects of the policy and stonewall legislative inquiries.

I honestly didn't see Democrats abandoning their oversight responsibility during the first two years of the Obama administration, did you?

Well, as I said in my previous post, we have to be careful here, because Democrats objectively are orders of magnitude less depraved and contemptuous of our constitutional form of government. So no, nothing the Dems did during Obama's first two years are even within the same solar system as what the GOP did during Trump's first two years. But let's be brutally honest: I don't recall too many hard-hitting oversight hearings and waves of subpoenas of Obama officials being issued circa 2009-2010.

I don't see any real argument for the continuation of a national conservative party, aside from, as you say, giving conservatives a chance to rant and feel listened to

Considering that self-identified conservatives still outnumber self-identified liberals/progressives by around 10 points, they could easily make the same argument about having a liberal party.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

To be a fully functioning democracy we need a rational opposition party. nycbos Feb 2021 #1
When in our lifetimes has it been a rational opposition party? Irish_Dem Feb 2021 #2
For a good bit of my life. GulfCoast66 Feb 2021 #11
Not for my lifetime. Irish_Dem Feb 2021 #12
Your reply rebuts your premise. Nixon only resigned because republicans told him they would impeach GulfCoast66 Feb 2021 #15
Nixon didn't "only" resign because Goldwater asked him to. thucythucy Feb 2021 #18
Today that would not matter to republicans. GulfCoast66 Feb 2021 #21
Yeah, it's a mite chilly tonight! thucythucy Feb 2021 #23
Hell, you did not stomp on me! I can take and give! GulfCoast66 Feb 2021 #25
Best to you too. thucythucy Feb 2021 #26
Support the rule of law? JonLP24 Feb 2021 #22
Good god, I'm not defending today's republicans. Nor necessarily the Lincoln Project republicans. GulfCoast66 Feb 2021 #32
That has (mostly) been my experience as well. KentuckyWoman Feb 2021 #30
Oh, I'm not arguing that any of their leaders a worth a bucket of spit GulfCoast66 Feb 2021 #33
Why I_UndergroundPanther Feb 2021 #3
Indeed. nycbos Feb 2021 #8
Wish we could shut out the republicans in Texas! LeftInTX Feb 2021 #53
That's not what the founding fathers thought. thucythucy Feb 2021 #9
I agree. But they unintentionally created a system of government that requires them. GulfCoast66 Feb 2021 #13
We either have two parties that agree with the basic underlying premises Crunchy Frog Feb 2021 #4
this TeamPooka Feb 2021 #7
Exactly. thucythucy Feb 2021 #10
Exactly! TomSlick Feb 2021 #14
Bingo. There will always be a Conservative party. GulfCoast66 Feb 2021 #16
Yep, they aren't going away LeftInTX Feb 2021 #52
We need 2 honest parties. bamagal62 Feb 2021 #5
Yes. Citizens United needs to be overturned and expunged. nt Hekate Feb 2021 #27
It's been hella better in Cali... tonedevil Feb 2021 #6
A conservative party in the tradition of Edmund Burke would be a worthy rival. DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2021 #17
Might as well ask why we need representative government Hortensis Feb 2021 #19
I don't agree it's the same thing at all. thucythucy Feb 2021 #37
You posted about any conservative party at all. Conservatism Hortensis Feb 2021 #39
I'm always skeptical about arguments that say certain political behaviors thucythucy Feb 2021 #41
There's no absolute determinism, and I'm surprised you found Hortensis Feb 2021 #46
Well, you did say thucythucy Feb 2021 #47
Yup. Just occurred to me that the third wife's despicable Hortensis Feb 2021 #49
The RePutinicans would LOVE to have a one party country. NoMoreRepugs Feb 2021 #20
A one-party country will crumble because of the "absolute power" axiom... Hekate Feb 2021 #24
There are plenty of people here who would be just fine with absolute power in perpetuity. BannonsLiver Feb 2021 #29
Exactly so Hekate Feb 2021 #31
Not "perpetuity" thucythucy Feb 2021 #42
I think the point is a sane opposition BannonsLiver Feb 2021 #28
It will be tough thucythucy Feb 2021 #43
I'm not sure I made myself clear BannonsLiver Feb 2021 #55
Yes. Why does that opposition party NEED to be the GQP? Does it NEED to be conservative even? ck4829 Feb 2021 #34
Because no one votes for them? LeftInTX Feb 2021 #54
How do we fix this? ck4829 Feb 2021 #58
Maher made a compelling argument on his show tonight Hamlette Feb 2021 #35
Arguing by anecdote generally doesn't do it for me. thucythucy Feb 2021 #44
Because a positive feedback loop is self-destructive. See, e.g., GQP. Hermit-The-Prog Feb 2021 #36
And why would the demise of a national conservative party-- thucythucy Feb 2021 #45
Close to a third of the country are conservatives Azathoth Feb 2021 #38
A third alternative not mentioned in your first paragraph is thucythucy Feb 2021 #48
... Azathoth Feb 2021 #57
I'm OK with "convervative" as defined in English, not Republicanese DFW Feb 2021 #40
The basic flaw in your argument can be seen in the examples you cite. thucythucy Feb 2021 #50
Just because the Nina Turners of this world have not been given the free rein that Trump has DFW Feb 2021 #51
Nina Turner? JonLP24 Feb 2021 #56
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