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Emrys

(8,923 posts)
5. "Gender" in linguistic terms is just a semantic/grammatical label.
Thu Feb 25, 2021, 10:32 AM
Feb 2021

German, for instance, has three - masculine, feminine and neuter, taking the articles der, die and das and with adjectives and the case system needing to agree according to rules that native speakers internalize and we who learn it as a second language have to consciously and laboriously memorize.

Grammatical gender is not necessarily related to physical gender. A table in French is feminine. Girl - Mädchen - in German is neuter because the diminutive ending -chen (and associated modification of the preceing vowel) always renders a noun neuter.

From reading the aritcle, this doesn't seem to be the issue. If you speak French to a native speaker and mistakenly use "le" (masculine) as the article for a feminine noun (instead of "la" ), they'll probably immediately correct you as it's illiterate/non-standard. I don't think the proposal is to abandon grammatical gender. English, as one example, went through this transition in its development and became effectively a different language, and French without gendered nouns would also be a different language.

It looks like the controversy is more around problems that are not unique to French. "Man" is used to refer to a male in English, but also mankind, and some have objected to this over the years. Some years ago there was a drive in America to replace some gendered job terms with ungendered ones - firefighter instead of fireman, for instance, and this was a matter of law in certain contexts.

English has ungendered plurals, French doesn't, which is one aspect that is being challenged, if you read the article. I remember wandering along a French country lane with my wife a few years ago. We passed a few roadside cottages with women outside, two groups of which greeted us with a cheery "Bonjour, mesdames." I wasn't sure at the time (still haven't been able to find out, in fact) whether I was being misgendered or whether they had a local dialect way of overcoming the lack of an ungendered plural form - formally, it should have been "Bonjour, messieurs," which is one of the issues being disputed in the controversy being reported here.

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The C-circumflex does not show up in thread titles. MineralMan Feb 2021 #1
Put in a regular C to make the title more readable. Klaralven Feb 2021 #3
workaround for the cedilla muriel_volestrangler Feb 2021 #10
Thank you! Klaralven Feb 2021 #11
Not quite the debate DarthDem Feb 2021 #4
Well, it is sort of changing the language. MineralMan Feb 2021 #6
It's strange to see the somewhat new practice of using "they" and "them" as singular. JustABozoOnThisBus Feb 2021 #19
A lot of it is just using plural nouns, so you can use they and them. MineralMan Feb 2021 #21
To be pedantic (in keeping with many of the replies to this OP!), singular they/them is not new. Emrys Feb 2021 #26
I bow to your pedanticism. Who'd'a thought to look to the 14th century? JustABozoOnThisBus Feb 2021 #31
Impossible to change? Act_of_Reparation Feb 2021 #8
Not in the same way French is. MineralMan Feb 2021 #9
I'm not talking about Modern English. Act_of_Reparation Mar 2021 #59
Languages change constantly, through usage. MineralMan Mar 2021 #60
American "equalization" is simpler and in most uses is simplifying Hortensis Feb 2021 #32
I was wondering when this particular aspect Miguelito Loveless Feb 2021 #2
"Gender" in linguistic terms is just a semantic/grammatical label. Emrys Feb 2021 #5
Yes, but the gendered nature of languages has an unconscious impact. MineralMan Feb 2021 #7
It does, but in modern English, gender isn't embedded in the grammar as it is in French. Emrys Feb 2021 #12
Yes. Writers and editors have to pay a lot of attention to usage. MineralMan Feb 2021 #14
True... did you know that... Happy Hoosier Feb 2021 #15
Add it to the pile of more or less useless facts I contributed myself above! Emrys Feb 2021 #24
As someone learning German.... it's a pain in the ass! NT Happy Hoosier Feb 2021 #13
Recite after me: Emrys Feb 2021 #25
Interestingly, it's not "just" a semantic/grammatical label. WhiskeyGrinder Feb 2021 #27
Yes, there are nuances there. Emrys Feb 2021 #30
Interesting. In Spanish it depends often on treestar Feb 2021 #51
Speaking of language issues, the phrase "tabled a bill" needs to die Silent3 Feb 2021 #16
Funny, I did not realize this until the last year or so, with debates over Brexit legislation. tritsofme Feb 2021 #41
This is like the LatinX thing Sympthsical Feb 2021 #17
It's always that way leftstreet Feb 2021 #22
I love when people get offended *for* me Sympthsical Feb 2021 #33
interesting analyisis Skittles Feb 2021 #43
Just my personal experience Sympthsical Feb 2021 #44
I do understand Skittles Feb 2021 #45
Yeah, we're on the same page Sympthsical Feb 2021 #46
Really interesting, we outsiders struggle to see the toxicity apnu Feb 2021 #48
But the thing is, I don't want you to be quiet Sympthsical Feb 2021 #49
You are fucking amazing apnu Feb 2021 #50
I agree with this assessment Skittles Feb 2021 #58
I know a few who use it, they are all under 30 and skinny LeftInTX Feb 2021 #38
Hey now, I love avocado toast Sympthsical Feb 2021 #39
Acting might be the one profession where having masculine and feminine nouns actually makes sense. Midwestern Democrat Feb 2021 #42
Completely agreed Sympthsical Feb 2021 #47
It's coming though! treestar Feb 2021 #53
You've touched on something I loathe Sympthsical Feb 2021 #54
I agree with the notion that acting is not gender neutral, but ... Staph Feb 2021 #55
I'm reminded of a story from Dark Shadows... Dr. Strange Feb 2021 #56
In the new version of The Stand (2020) Staph Feb 2021 #57
There is a lot of that treestar Feb 2021 #52
Good luck with that. jalan48 Feb 2021 #18
English is promiscuous. It accepts new words and grammars without much friction... hunter Feb 2021 #20
Those who write as a profession have style sheets to follow. MineralMan Feb 2021 #23
:) No editors, but a typist for my reports always changed Hortensis Feb 2021 #34
I'm seeing a lot of experimentation in Science Fiction and Fantasy. hunter Feb 2021 #37
I love reading Murakami translations due to similar Sympthsical Feb 2021 #40
Then one would have to go after most European languages EXCEPT English, Dutch and Scandinavian DFW Feb 2021 #28
The Scandinavian situation seems complicated Klaralven Feb 2021 #35
Kick burrowowl Feb 2021 #29
Well, in German, one can call a little girl "it" and a potato "she." NNadir Feb 2021 #36
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