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PETRUS

(3,678 posts)
35. ...
Thu Jun 17, 2021, 11:38 PM
Jun 2021

The acts I've described barely scratch the surface. I don't know how much has been written on the topic, but I've read several books on the history and development of capitalism and others on economic history in broader terms* and I can tell you that my assertions aren't even remotely controversial. Nearly everything - if not literally everything - we would recognize as a city state, nation, or empire involves an extractive hierarchy held together by some ideology and the raw exercise of power. My point isn't that this manifestation of "aggression and greed" is what sets capitalism apart, it's just the opposite. My point is that capitalism is no different in that regard, that is to say it's an imposed system, just like any number of others. It is however, different in its modalities (and consequences), which is why it's discussed at all as its own thing.

Property is a great place to start when talking about what you call basic conditions. People have come up with any number of wildly different ideas about property in different places and at different times. There is all kinds of scholarship in history and anthropology* that discuss ideas and arrangements about property that depart substantially from the institutions we live with today. I don't doubt that some concept of personal property is universal, but the (relatively) modern institution of private property is not. There are original writings from the time in question - arguments over property laws, the laws themselves, specific accounts describing enclosure and putting down resistance, etc. - that one can consult to get an outline of the process as the market system took shape and expanded. The claim I'm making here, that capitalism necessitated a change in property relations and that bringing those changes about required force, is not debatable.

Examining labor and the movement of goods is another reasonable way to see how capitalism is different from what it replaced. People have traded goods all over the world for a very long time, and if people hadn't been working for a living in some sense of the term, we wouldn't be here today. We've even had specialists - artisans, chefs, priests, healers, whatever - for a long time in all kinds of societies. In spite of all that, capitalism didn't come about until late in the game, and it happened in one place and expanded from there. It came about because of a very unique set of conditions (which existed in England, but not France or Spain or India or what has since become the U.S.) that represented a break from tradition and didn't appear until a mere few hundred years ago. Exactly what those conditions were and how they were different is a book length subject*, but I already hinted at one huge component - cutting people off from land and natural resources. People who rarely engaged in market activity and never required it for survival were made dependent on "the market." And markets were nationally (and then internationally) integrated, whereas before trade primarily took place in what is called "spot markets." Some of the history I've read doesn't even use the word "capitalism," it uses the term "market system." In some sense, the story of capitalism is the story of the expansion of market logic both in geographical and conceptual terms. It's worth noting that this expansion always meant war and/or rebellion, which doesn't seem consistent with the idea of something arising "naturally."

You close with some comments about policies you favor, which is fine, but I want to be clear that my comments here aren't an exercise in passing judgement, just clearing up some facts about economic history.


*In case you're interested, here are a few of the books I've read that contain information relevant to this discussion:

Empire of Cotton: A Global History -Beckert
Economics in Perspective: A Critical History -Galbraith
Debt: The First 5,000 Years -Graeber
The Many-Headed Hydra: Sailors, Slaves, Commoners, and the Hidden History of the Revolutionary Atlantic -Linebaugh & Rediker
The Origin of Capitalism: A Longer View -Meiksins Wood
The Great Transformation: The Political and Economic Origins of Our Time - Polanyi
Seeing Like a State: How Certain Schemes to Improve the Human Condition Have Failed -Scott

I would say that how well an owner accurately makes that sort of assessment determines whether their Hugh_Lebowski Jun 2021 #1
Capitalism isn't really a system Silent3 Jun 2021 #2
That's a peculiar statement. PETRUS Jun 2021 #30
You're listing a lot of acts of aggression and greed Silent3 Jun 2021 #34
... PETRUS Jun 2021 #35
I am not unfamilar with the historical perspective you're talking about... Silent3 Jun 2021 #36
I agree wholeheartedly with your final paragraph. PETRUS Jun 2021 #40
I guess a bunch of words need qualification Silent3 Jun 2021 #54
Thanks for continuing the conversation. PETRUS Jun 2021 #55
Big Corps with stocks are hogtied to making a profit for the stockholders and taking from the... Brainfodder Jun 2021 #3
but it didn't use to be this way slightlv Jun 2021 #19
Thanks for your thoughtful post. smirkymonkey Jun 2021 #22
I am well aware, that is why I am furious. Brainfodder Jun 2021 #25
Capitalism relies on inventiveness to solve a problem. cachukis Jun 2021 #4
What other economic system functions as well? comradebillyboy Jun 2021 #5
It can't be reformed I_UndergroundPanther Jun 2021 #6
It has to be reformed for it to continue. Adam Smith's analysis cachukis Jun 2021 #8
I never managed to finish reading The Wealth of Nations Sapient Donkey Jun 2021 #26
Appreciate the insight. Didn't finish it either. cachukis Jun 2021 #28
By the way, have you read Sapience by Harari? cachukis Jun 2021 #29
It's about power in ownership. RegularJam Jun 2021 #7
I agree slightlv Jun 2021 #20
The real problem with (under-regulated) capitalism is inevitable concentration of wealth Mysterian Jun 2021 #9
Owners? Who are the owners? MineralMan Jun 2021 #10
The question isn't really about Capitalism per se. Happy Hoosier Jun 2021 #11
Truthfully, customers and the stock market determine what owners make Hoyt Jun 2021 #12
Perhaps it's consumer wisdom versus moneymaker wile. cachukis Jun 2021 #13
I've always thought ymetca Jun 2021 #14
Humans have needs that must be met, or we die. MineralMan Jun 2021 #16
Agreed! ymetca Jun 2021 #18
That's a non-sequitur. PETRUS Jun 2021 #31
Not really Zeitghost Jun 2021 #33
No such centrally controlled system has ever succeeded for long. MineralMan Jun 2021 #38
No, I described commerce. The exchange of something valuable for MineralMan Jun 2021 #37
Huh? PETRUS Jun 2021 #41
All economic systems function on an exchange basis for transactions. MineralMan Jun 2021 #43
I don't require your interest. PETRUS Jun 2021 #44
That's good. MineralMan Jun 2021 #45
Some thoughts. PETRUS Jun 2021 #50
In Norway, it is considered KT2000 Jun 2021 #15
Capitalism can only work if it is tightly regulated to protect labor, consumers and the environment ShazamIam Jun 2021 #17
Capitalism is the balls of nature. Condoms, meh, birth control cachukis Jun 2021 #21
So exploiting others is natural. I disagree when the evidence shows that we advance when we ShazamIam Jun 2021 #23
Not saying I am fond of the capitalism within which we live, cachukis Jun 2021 #24
Owners are the most valuable members of a business. Mosby Jun 2021 #27
There are very few large enterprises that are individually-owned. MineralMan Jun 2021 #39
Employers do not set wages Zeitghost Jun 2021 #32
Republicanism is the problem with Capitalism gulliver Jun 2021 #42
This! peggysue2 Jun 2021 #48
Thank you. betsuni Jun 2021 #51
What would you replace it with? MoonRiver Jun 2021 #46
That is precisely the question, isn't it? MineralMan Jun 2021 #47
Exactly! And I still await the OP's rebut. MoonRiver Jun 2021 #49
Something about a revolution where the workers rally, speaking truth to power, billionaires are betsuni Jun 2021 #52
As a small business (law firm) owner, I think your premise is incorrect. TomSlick Jun 2021 #53
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