General Discussion

AndyS

(14,559 posts)

14. All the hoopla over 'the people' is, ahem,

Sun Oct 10, 2021, 10:34 AM

Oct 2021

bullshit. At the time the amendment was written 'the people' could be interpreted as a collective of all people. If that's not enough read the writings of Madison (author of the 2nd) in the Federalist Papers in which he clearly describes what a militia is and it's NOT all able bodied men of arms.

The mythology surrounding the 2nd dates all the way back to 1970, the gun industry coup in the NRA and the radical mentality that came with it.

Rant all you want, and you will, that's the truth.

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A Well Regulated Militia [View all] Dirty Socialist Oct 2021 OP

you're missing a couple of words Blues Heron Oct 2021 #1

To me it would mean universal IF Dirty Socialist Oct 2021 #2

It says "the people" Blues Heron Oct 2021 #4

After re-reading it Dirty Socialist Oct 2021 #6

Poorly written, and not, nearly, enough, commas. Paladin Oct 2021 #18

Perhaps it is poorly written. Caliman73 Oct 2021 #72

To me it was always that to have a well regulate militia, the people have to be allowed to own guns. brewens Oct 2021 #7

Militia over a standing army Claire Oh Nette Oct 2021 #27

A pretty small percentage of people owned guns in the first place in the Colonies. Take away that brewens Oct 2021 #30

Do you have anything to back up that assertion? Nt hack89 Oct 2021 #57

Yeah. brewens Oct 2021 #61

I don't see a specific mention of gun ownership rates in colonial America hack89 Oct 2021 #66

Is there a specific passage you can point to? ShazzieB Nov 2021 #78

All the hoopla over 'the people' is, ahem, AndyS Oct 2021 #14

I guess I will have to read Madison Dirty Socialist Oct 2021 #15

The second amendment is an awful, poorly-worded sentence. Politicub Oct 2021 #19

to me its crystal clear - which is why we need to erase it from our constitution Blues Heron Oct 2021 #20

I agree that it should be repealed. Politicub Oct 2021 #21

to me the first part just explains why Blues Heron Oct 2021 #22

The quote is a clause, not a sentence, and it's deliberately removed from its context. lagomorph777 Oct 2021 #63

What does "keep and bear" mean? What are "arms"? maxsolomon Oct 2021 #24

I think it means own rifles and handguns Blues Heron Oct 2021 #26

I'd guess the average militiaman did not own a flintlock pistol. maxsolomon Oct 2021 #28

At The Time, Sir The Magistrate Oct 2021 #39

This message was self-deleted by its author sl8 Oct 2021 #47

You Are Refering To Individual State Constitutions At The Founding, Sir? The Magistrate Oct 2021 #48

This message was self-deleted by its author sl8 Oct 2021 #50

Without The Text, Sir, It's Hard To See What Meaning May Be Conveyed The Magistrate Oct 2021 #51

This message was self-deleted by its author sl8 Oct 2021 #52

Defense Of the State Is Defense Of The Citizen Himself, Sir The Magistrate Oct 2021 #55

This message was self-deleted by its author sl8 Oct 2021 #56

that's my point. maxsolomon Oct 2021 #49

The term "well regulated" can cover many things, including what types of firearms are regulation. So dameatball Oct 2021 #3

'regulated' had a somewhat different meaning then Amishman Oct 2021 #17

Originalism is only applicable when a Conservative says it is. maxsolomon Oct 2021 #25

Glad you realized this. LiberatedUSA Oct 2021 #5

Now I think it's poorly written Dirty Socialist Oct 2021 #8

open to intepretation Crepuscular Oct 2021 #9

They probably should have said that we can own guns for the purpose of serving in a well brewens Oct 2021 #10

We can regulate weapons we already do. The Jungle 1 Oct 2021 #11

True that Dirty Socialist Oct 2021 #12

But it is not the 2A that is preventing gun control hack89 Oct 2021 #31

The 2A allows strict gun control hack89 Oct 2021 #13

I take well regulated to mean: LakeArenal Oct 2021 #16

Todays well regulated militia is each states National Guard. pwb Oct 2021 #23

The 2A had nothing to do with the National Guard. former9thward Oct 2021 #73

It helps to quote the entire thing. Zeitghost Oct 2021 #29

I contend that morons allowed open carry does not qualify as a "well regulated militia". pecosbob Oct 2021 #32

Yeah, the RWNJs always forget everything that comes before the comma (n/t) MissMillie Oct 2021 #33

Just keep in mind... LiberatedUSA Oct 2021 #34

Are there any other Amendments that speak of a collective right? NickB79 Oct 2021 #35

Exactly, it was the Bill of Rights, and they are individual rights. nt EX500rider Oct 2021 #44

Um, yes. The First. lagomorph777 Oct 2021 #64

So Americans don't have an individual right to free speech, or free religion? NickB79 Oct 2021 #68

Fine, "the people" of course applies to all people. lagomorph777 Oct 2021 #69

I said it was incongruous with the other Rights NickB79 Oct 2021 #70

No - it's written as it's written. I don't have to defend the Founders here. lagomorph777 Oct 2021 #71

Collective vs ind manicdem Oct 2021 #77

The 2nd covers guns expected to be used by the militia - i.e. uniform military-grade arms. BusterMove Oct 2021 #36

From Scholar Carol Anderson: "a constitutional right to form militias to put down slave revolts" usonian Oct 2021 #37

Very interesting, especially the removed passage by Thomas Jefferson! Rhiannon12866 Oct 2021 #53

That makes no sense. There was no federal issue at stake. hack89 Oct 2021 #58

Anderson isn't wrong about one of the southern state motivation, but she ignores the fact.. SYFROYH Oct 2021 #59

I read recently someone who had an interesting angle on the 2nd amendment. Mr.Bill Oct 2021 #38

It says "keep and bear arms" Angleae Oct 2021 #42

"Keep" can mean other things than own. Mr.Bill Oct 2021 #43

Depends what "keep" means in relation to arms. maxsolomon Oct 2021 #74

Yes, thank you! dutch777 Oct 2021 #40

So much law loophole jumping, it's why our society is out of wack. Brainfodder Oct 2021 #41

Interesting take on the 2cnd, that's been done to death. Captain Stern Oct 2021 #45

Nice straw man. lagomorph777 Oct 2021 #65

I didn't build a straw man..nice, or otherwise. Captain Stern Oct 2021 #67

You offered a Binary choice. Guns: Yes or No? maxsolomon Oct 2021 #75

I didn't offer a choice at all. Captain Stern Oct 2021 #76

The people have the guns to form a well regulated militia SYFROYH Oct 2021 #46

This message was self-deleted by its author sl8 Oct 2021 #54

How is Meatloaf's 'I'd Do Anything for Love' like the 2nd Amendment? HAB911 Oct 2021 #60

Well done. 👍 ShazzieB Nov 2021 #79

Thank you HAB911 Nov 2021 #80

Yup. But gun-humpers (even here) will give you all kinds of excuses to ignore the first clause. lagomorph777 Oct 2021 #62