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Amishman

(5,557 posts)
33. under WI law, he can do that.
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 10:56 AM
Nov 2021

I've posted this a few times, I'll dust it off again

The law is not intuitive in this scenario.

WI 939.48

(2) Provocation affects the privilege of self-defense as follows:
(a) A person who engages in unlawful conduct of a type likely to provoke others to attack him or her and thereby does provoke an attack is not entitled to claim the privilege of self-defense against such attack, except when the attack which ensues is of a type causing the person engaging in the unlawful conduct to reasonably believe that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm. In such a case, the person engaging in the unlawful conduct is privileged to act in self-defense, but the person is not privileged to resort to the use of force intended or likely to cause death to the person’s assailant unless the person reasonably believes he or she has exhausted every other reasonable means to escape from or otherwise avoid death or great bodily harm at the hands of his or her assailant.
(b) The privilege lost by provocation may be regained if the actor in good faith withdraws from the fight and gives adequate notice thereof to his or her assailant.
(c) A person who provokes an attack, whether by lawful or unlawful conduct, with intent to use such an attack as an excuse to cause death or great bodily harm to his or her assailant is not entitled to claim the privilege of self-defense.



So pointing his rifle at someone, his unwanted presence there, being armed in general, putting out fires, etc - all of this would cause him to lose the privilege of self defense under section (a)

The problem is section (b) says that that privilege is regained by withdrawing / fleeing, which it is pretty clear on video that he did.

Now section (c) says if the provoking actions were done with the intent to bait an attack and allow the provoker to cause bodily harm, they cannot claim self defense. I know we all are thinking 'yes, the little shit did!'. The problem is proving intent in court is really really difficult. Other than a few tidbits (like the stupid tiktok video about trying to be famous), there just isn't nearly enough evidence to prove intent to the degree required by the law. Compounding that issue are KR's documented examples of giving aid, putting our fires, and his connections to the town despite not living there - all of these together give a counter-narrative to explain his presence.



To address your description, when KR began running away from Rosenbaum, he satisfied (b) and regained the privilege of self defense.

When KR turned and pointed the rifle at Rosenbaum during the chase, Rosenbaum's shouts and pursuit satisfy the legal criteria for him to be considered a threat. (chasing someone is pretty much universally a bad idea from a legal perspective). KR was legally able to point it as part of the act of self defense. Think about it, if pointing a firearm at someone who is a threat is a provocation, it would be impossible to ever legally use a gun in self defense.

There also is the issue that the video capture shows a figure carrying and pointing the rifle left handed. KR is right handed and fired his gun from that position during the shootings. That left / right swap definitely would be very odd and introduces doubt over that piece of evidence.
Yes left-of-center2012 Nov 2021 #1
Where/when greytdemocrat Nov 2021 #2
He murdered 2 people. This trial is to determine whether or not he goes to jail for it. ms liberty Nov 2021 #11
Untrue. He killed two people FBaggins Nov 2021 #15
Legally, yes those hairs would split that way. But outside a court of law ms liberty Nov 2021 #18
Message auto-removed Name removed Nov 2021 #44
no, you are a library posting annoying troll NewHendoLib Nov 2021 #48
Message auto-removed Name removed Nov 2021 #54
This message was self-deleted by its author Celerity Nov 2021 #51
A little slow in the book stacks???? marble falls Nov 2021 #52
she's not a seed...but certainly seedy! NewHendoLib Nov 2021 #53
What the heck? I attracted a troll and I MISSED IT??? ms liberty Nov 2021 #55
Just library girl for the 4,886,545,334th time NewHendoLib Nov 2021 #56
In the cross examination by the procesecutor of Kyle Bluethroughu Nov 2021 #20
rittenhouse was an "active shooter" rampartc Nov 2021 #3
who was from waco? maxsolomon Nov 2021 #37
From what I've seen/heard of the autopsy report, Rosenbaum was indeed an aggressor. Decoy of Fenris Nov 2021 #4
I have been watching the trial live on Court TV left-of-center2012 Nov 2021 #5
Rosenbaum was at point blank range. Decoy of Fenris Nov 2021 #6
Well, that is your opinion left-of-center2012 Nov 2021 #7
Of course. No reason we can't be civil about this. Decoy of Fenris Nov 2021 #13
His is backed up by the medical examiner and the reporter's testimony Amishman Nov 2021 #14
Correct Chille Nov 2021 #50
Your just focused on part two of the story Woodswalker Nov 2021 #8
Okie dokie smokey left-of-center2012 Nov 2021 #10
"Walked after the crowd". Legal. He had as much a right to be there as anyone. Decoy of Fenris Nov 2021 #12
it's good to read this janterry Nov 2021 #19
Yes DetroitLegalBeagle Nov 2021 #9
So much clearer than my answer FBaggins Nov 2021 #17
Many times. The problem is - that doesn't matter FBaggins Nov 2021 #16
That's a great question Bucky Nov 2021 #21
It is possible for multiple parties to have self-defense claims Sympthsical Nov 2021 #22
KR initiated the aggression by pointing his weapon at Rosenbaugh BEFORE the chase happened ... uponit7771 Nov 2021 #24
I don't agree with the claim Sympthsical Nov 2021 #26
" You can't see anything in that picture." this is false, what was showed during the trial was clear uponit7771 Nov 2021 #29
Actually, in Wisconsin law, they can Sympthsical Nov 2021 #30
No they can't *CONTINUE* or even reinitiate provocation and aggression while running away ... uponit7771 Nov 2021 #34
Yes they can. The law, in WI. and nationally, disagrees with you. n/t Decoy of Fenris Nov 2021 #38
"reasonable means to escape from death" isn't shooting at people while running away after provoking uponit7771 Nov 2021 #39
If someone's trying to kill you, retreating while firing is entirely rational and preferable. Decoy of Fenris Nov 2021 #41
KR admitted to knowing Rosenbaum was unarmed, uponit7771 Nov 2021 #45
I got a LOT of shit to do, but thank you for the dialogue. Decoy of Fenris Nov 2021 #47
Same, you might have a point is Rosenbaum was armed but KR admitted he wasn't and firing at uponit7771 Nov 2021 #49
I don't know what to tell you. The law says precisely what it says. n/t Sympthsical Nov 2021 #43
Yep, "reasonable means to escape death" isn't shooting at unarmed people while running away uponit7771 Nov 2021 #46
under WI law, he can do that. Amishman Nov 2021 #33
That's your opinion, and is subject to the beyond a reasonable doubt standard. Calista241 Nov 2021 #35
that's in and image not an opinion. KRs weapon was NOT pointed towards the ground close to chest uponit7771 Nov 2021 #36
Even better ***AFTER KR POINTED HIS WEAPON AT ROSENBAUGH BEFORE THE CHASE*** uponit7771 Nov 2021 #23
I haven't watched much of the trial but I did watch the Tomconroy Nov 2021 #25
Especially in light of the absolute trainwreck of a rebuttal that the prosecution gave afterwards DetroitLegalBeagle Nov 2021 #27
Turned that off. It was too painful. Tomconroy Nov 2021 #28
The defense provoked him successfully Sympthsical Nov 2021 #31
I didn't watch the state's closing and I missed the start of the defense Tomconroy Nov 2021 #40
There were almost no objections during closing Sympthsical Nov 2021 #42
Yes mcar Nov 2021 #32
It sounds like the Prosecution had a good closing LetMyPeopleVote Nov 2021 #57
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