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NoOneMan

(4,795 posts)
36. I believe this illustrates exactly how bad our problem is
Fri Oct 26, 2012, 12:33 AM
Oct 2012

If we all continue to deny the existence of simple truths because they clash with our neo-classical 20th century worldview, it will be very difficult to mitigate the overall damage once we can no longer maintain the status quo.

Remember, you refer to "my" definition of wealth. As I stated:

[quote]Wealth is essentially the ability to command energy; it follows that declining available energy per capita results in declining wealth.[/quote]

You keep referring to an article about more domestic crude production proving there is more energy (and hence wealth). But you continually refuse to examine how much energy it takes to explore, build infrastructure for, drill, pump and refine these new sources. I mentioned the available energy to the population (aka net energy). This amount is not equivilent to the aggregate sum of all oil coming out of the ground, because a growing percentage of that oil is pre-allocated for further energy harvesting and infrastructure maintanence. The population does not get dibs on it all for the purpose of economic growth (or there would be no energy for drilling).

Further, you also continue to refuse to acknowledge the emphasis on per capita distribution of energy. While oil production does continue to increase at a steady rate, population growth has kept pace completely, thereby negating any gains at all in oil production:



And to add to this point, more and more of that population wants their share of the energy. The recent booms in China and India are the perfect example of this.

To get back to the apple demonstration--the real wealth of such a village is apples. Eating them (processing the energy) gives one the ability to bring up more apples. But if the apple pit becomes too deep that the energy it takes to pull up a basket against gravity is more than what a human body can derive from the apples, there is no point in doing it. And just as US crude production may increase, you can have everyone pulling up basket after basket and still have no net gain in available energy per each village person at the end of the day.

Things are so bad (or good as you suggest) that we are burning oil rich sand, to produce crude--1/3rd of which must be used to keep burning more bitumen. And to boot, what use to be villages 30 years ago in China are now tech manufacturing hubs demanding the other 2/3rds of that energy go to them.

So you say crude production is increasing? I say that

1) crude production is requiring more and more energy, meaning less of this crude is available to the population.
2) there are more and more people who are in need of this crude
3) more of these people are using more of this crude more often than they use to (making it cost more, meaning more energy must be used to create the wealth to purchase energy)
4) maintaining an infrastructure required to grow the economy--built by the very cheap energy of yesterday--demands further crude and lowers the overall availability to the population for economic growth (this is one I haven't talked about much yet, but is a very interesting concept in its own right).

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

what, Some conservatives are understanding cause and effect?????? hollysmom Oct 2012 #1
how can this truth be so obvious, even to someone like him RepublicansRZombies Oct 2012 #2
Moreover, WHAT have THEY done about it? Proud Liberal Dem Oct 2012 #7
It's like they suggest we all take up yoga. closeupready Oct 2012 #10
Or just indict them in the ICC! Proud Liberal Dem Oct 2012 #11
Du rec. Nt xchrom Oct 2012 #3
And yet so many have no clue what it's like. JNelson6563 Oct 2012 #4
Like many other situations, you can't really understand it until you've lived it. Arkansas Granny Oct 2012 #9
Mom, is that you? Art_from_Ark Oct 2012 #43
No, they sure don't. GoCubsGo Oct 2012 #14
never been without insurance for long hollysmom Oct 2012 #27
K&R n/t OneGrassRoot Oct 2012 #5
Cheap, plentiful energy is the real key. NoOneMan Oct 2012 #6
"The party is over" Why? Corporations and Bankers are doing better than ever. RepublicansRZombies Oct 2012 #13
Because there is finite energy NoOneMan Oct 2012 #15
oh, baloney. first, there never was a 'party' except for the rich. second, they're still partying. HiPointDem Oct 2012 #19
It means per capita wealth will decline NoOneMan Oct 2012 #20
not any time soon. HiPointDem Oct 2012 #21
Its already happening NoOneMan Oct 2012 #22
at the moment, known supplies of oil are increasing. which means that 'wealth' by your definition HiPointDem Oct 2012 #30
As in my example, the apple hole is infinitely deep NoOneMan Oct 2012 #33
it may be deep or shallow; my point is that it's not happening at present. HiPointDem Oct 2012 #34
I believe this illustrates exactly how bad our problem is NoOneMan Oct 2012 #36
all that typing to combat your own straw men. HiPointDem Oct 2012 #37
A straw man is a misrepresentation of an opponent's position NoOneMan Oct 2012 #41
"A straw man is a misrepresentation of an opponent's position" = yes. HiPointDem Oct 2012 #42
It really hit home for me a couple years ago when it dawned on me how many closed stores I walked... ieoeja Oct 2012 #8
It's the Main Street economy. This is why we are still not entirely sure that the President Egalitarian Thug Oct 2012 #12
The problem is the bailouts and stimulus saved corporations and banks, not Main Street. davidn3600 Oct 2012 #16
Exactly. And it's not like we didn't predict this four years ago. Egalitarian Thug Oct 2012 #17
The American People Buy Into The Bullshit That America Is "Broke" Yavin4 Oct 2012 #18
In pictorial form: coalition_unwilling Oct 2012 #38
"The economy" is cruel..."no matter what our politicians have tried." woo me with science Oct 2012 #23
+1,000,000,000 x 1,000,000,000 - Well put and definitely coalition_unwilling Oct 2012 #39
"When I say I believe in a square deal I do not mean to give every man the best hand. trouble.smith Oct 2012 #44
kick RepublicansRZombies Oct 2012 #24
537 Votes in Florida and 5-4 in the Supreme Court gulliver Oct 2012 #25
K&R woo me with science Oct 2012 #26
The Cheney/Bush economic legacy. (nt) Kurovski Oct 2012 #28
Good stuff. Thanks for posting. nt ProudProgressiveNow Oct 2012 #29
I'm in that "40%".. SomethingFishy Oct 2012 #31
Sorry to read this. It is far too common a story. n/t Egalitarian Thug Oct 2012 #32
that sucks!! RepublicansRZombies Oct 2012 #35
Emphatic K&R! - n/t coalition_unwilling Oct 2012 #40
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