General Discussion

Martin Eden

(15,505 posts)

202. I'm not saying the USA has not been a bad actor on the world scene.

Sat Feb 19, 2022, 06:15 PM

Feb 2022

Last edited Sat Feb 19, 2022, 08:00 PM - Edit history (1)

Smedley Butler was not wrong, and I personally travelled to Washington DC to protest the invasion of Iraq four days before "Shock and Awe" was launched. Obama was wrong to help depose the Libyan dictator. Unintended consequences can be terrible, including the coup against Iran's democratically elected government in 1953.

What I'm saying is there is no realistic scenario in which NATO/USA is going to invade Russian sovereign territory through Ukraine or anywhere else. If you insist that is a real possibility within the foreseeable future, then we can agree to disagree on that point.

ETA:
I'm also saying Putin is motivated to force Ukraine back into the Russian sphere by any means necessary.

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This may upset some DUers but after Iraq it's hard to watch the same hacks talking [View all] malaise Feb 2022 OP

When it comes to war I don't believe a walkingman Feb 2022 #1

So President Biden is lying to you? You really want to go there? brooklynite Feb 2022 #4

Why go there? A US President might be misinformed - AGAIN! TomWilm Feb 2022 #29

Unless you imagine President is planning to invade Russia, the comparison is pointless... brooklynite Feb 2022 #33

Yes, but please do not invent more absurdities like that then ... TomWilm Feb 2022 #42

Maybe but keep in mind Biden is only stating his opinion he is not asking for cstanleytech Feb 2022 #94

..and you are MORE.informed? whathehell Feb 2022 #162

" We're a war monger country"? Compared to who? whathehell Feb 2022 #24

I am already against the next war. walkingman Feb 2022 #35

That's nice, but you didn't answer the question whathehell Feb 2022 #43

His last year of peace is what did him in Polybius Feb 2022 #236

I mean, since you mention it quakerboy Feb 2022 #99

Um. Well since you.mention that, whathehell Feb 2022 #102

Strawman quakerboy Feb 2022 #174

Not at all.. whathehell Feb 2022 #175

Thats an irrelevant question. quakerboy Feb 2022 #178

It's not, but I understand why you can't answer it. whathehell Feb 2022 #183

Its fully irrelevant to the current situation. quakerboy Feb 2022 #212

Sorry. but it is.. whathehell Feb 2022 #243

Shhhhhhhhhhhh! malaise Feb 2022 #142

Would you say we shouldn't have gotten involved in WW2? brooklynite Feb 2022 #2

See #1 malaise Feb 2022 #5

If we didn't get involved in WWII, I would have never been born JohnSJ Feb 2022 #120

I seem to remember that thee then Soviet Union switched sides and joined the allies in WW2 malaise Feb 2022 #245

Yeah, they invaded Poland, ceased to recognize it as a country, Wingus Dingus Feb 2022 #256

Tell that to the Jews in Auschwitz malaise Feb 2022 #259

Uh, no, that's not all. Wingus Dingus Feb 2022 #260

I don't condone our going into Iraq--not then, not now. hlthe2b Feb 2022 #3

How do his desires differ from the US's malaise Feb 2022 #7

Did we leave Iraq voluntarily? Did we (while there try to take over other areas of the Middle East?) hlthe2b Feb 2022 #12

Solid Points.. Thank You! Cha Feb 2022 #96

It is all Biden's fault because Putin is threatening to invade Ukraine, at least that is the logic JohnSJ Feb 2022 #128

Yes, We Are Fortunate to have Cha Feb 2022 #138

The sanctions won't do anything dwayneb Feb 2022 #232

We support the Nato Treaty which agrees to not take other countries by force whathehell Feb 2022 #28

On the other hand, we do it through Disaster Capitalism. HUAJIAO Feb 2022 #46

Oh, so our methods, unlike those of, um, what? whathehell Feb 2022 #49

EXACTLY! ShazzieB Feb 2022 #47

You're quite welcome. whathehell Feb 2022 #51

We have a democratic society with a transition of powers. Tommy Carcetti Feb 2022 #146

The US has also overthrown several democratic governments malaise Feb 2022 #149

So? Tommy Carcetti Feb 2022 #150

True, and we still offer better than what's Putin offering ... no? tia uponit7771 Feb 2022 #180

And how recently was that? nt EX500rider Feb 2022 #238

US MINIMUM acts as if maintaining plurality is important, authoritative govs are NEVER good for the uponit7771 Feb 2022 #179

Are you serious? dwayneb Feb 2022 #234

I do take Putin at his word, and that was not those ... TomWilm Feb 2022 #39

He wants the countries under his authoritarian control --not the USSR form of governance. hlthe2b Feb 2022 #44

Yes, any Putin-lover would defend Putin's wish to get rich ... TomWilm Feb 2022 #52

Actually Colonel Vindman and Fiona Hill, Michael McFaul are my sources. Yours? hlthe2b Feb 2022 #54

Post removed Post removed Feb 2022 #66

Accusing DUers of spreading propaganda is not going to let you stay here long--especially hlthe2b Feb 2022 #71

Hmm..Are you a Ukranian? whathehell Feb 2022 #98

just like German pipeline , about oil & gas money !! monkeyman1 Feb 2022 #55

For whom? hlthe2b Feb 2022 #57

Waiting for Russia to play the WMDs card. Sneederbunk Feb 2022 #6

Who played it against the Japanese? malaise Feb 2022 #10

Japan was issued THREE warnings before the bomb whathehell Feb 2022 #32

Fair to say Red Mountain Feb 2022 #124

Yes it is.. whathehell Feb 2022 #148

🤔 Except incendiary bombs don't (a far as I know) don't alter genetic material of future... electric_blue68 Feb 2022 #204

Not here Red Mountain Feb 2022 #121

After reading Hiroshima, and NYC in ?'70 being the first city in the USA to see Japan's... electric_blue68 Feb 2022 #203

This is already happening dwayneb Feb 2022 #227

I have no problem with what "they' are saying Sherman A1 Feb 2022 #8

Many of us are old enough to remember our False Flag multigraincracker Feb 2022 #9

We are NOT doing the gulf of tonkin in this situation, it is Russia that is doing that JohnSJ Feb 2022 #13

How about WMDs? Remember the Maine? roody Feb 2022 #16

Biden is NOT lying. There are massive Russian troops on the Ukraine border, and they are not there JohnSJ Feb 2022 #25

Is Ukraine threatening to invade Russia? Happy Hoosier Feb 2022 #216

Russian instead of us are all about multigraincracker Feb 2022 #34

So who would you prefer living under, Putin or Biden? whathehell Feb 2022 #64

Never argue with an American self- hater. whathehell Feb 2022 #81

It is ironic that they seem to be mad at Biden because Russia is threatening to invade Ukraine JohnSJ Feb 2022 #119

They don't say, do they? If you notice, they won't whathehell Feb 2022 #132

Absolutely, and using the logic because the US has engaged in misdeeds in the past JohnSJ Feb 2022 #141

One would be hard pressed to find a powerful country whathehell Feb 2022 #210

Yes JohnSJ Feb 2022 #211

The far left and far right are heavy with conspiracy theories JI7 Feb 2022 #176

The West's false flags are always given a pass malaise Feb 2022 #14

You said it better multigraincracker Feb 2022 #36

So you'd prefer that Trumpp's pal, Putin, destroy Nato whathehell Feb 2022 #61

Western Alliance? The one that includes less hawkish France and Germany? How about Orban's Hungary? DickKessler Feb 2022 #114

Lol..Would you.prefer an aliance with Russia and it's whathehell Feb 2022 #123

Uh, using "dear" - really? That's patronizing. electric_blue68 Feb 2022 #205

Oh well.. whathehell Feb 2022 #207

I opposed the invasion of Iraq and wnylib Feb 2022 #110

TY for explaining that so well. Cha Feb 2022 #169

This message was self-deleted by its author Tommy Carcetti Feb 2022 #143

But you are making excuses when none need to be made. Tommy Carcetti Feb 2022 #144

And many, like me, are old enough to remember whathehell Feb 2022 #67

ditto EOM tiredtoo Feb 2022 #130

No it isn't the same thing. JohnSJ Feb 2022 #11

Imperialist wars have been bipartisan all roody Feb 2022 #15

All my life too malaise Feb 2022 #151

word. KG Feb 2022 #249

K & R jalan48 Feb 2022 #17

Understood. No rah-rah, just a sick, sinking feeling. haele Feb 2022 #18

You speak for me malaise Feb 2022 #27

Our stance on Ukraine is NOTHING like the Reagan Bush wars.. whathehell Feb 2022 #89

I know. As does the OP. haele Feb 2022 #103

This is not an "adventure"..We're not even sending in troops. whathehell Feb 2022 #107

Okay, you got me. I was talking about the feeling that a run-up to war causes.. haele Feb 2022 #134

Ty for a very interesting post. I mostly listen to WNYC... electric_blue68 Feb 2022 #209

"Reagan/Brush adventures in US hegemony" Reagan? EX500rider Feb 2022 #239

Iran Contra? haele Feb 2022 #240

I don't consider Iraq & Ukraine to be any bit alike. EX500rider Feb 2022 #241

I don't watch talking heads, so I don't care what they say... brooklynite Feb 2022 #19

Amen to this. ShazzieB Feb 2022 #50

Lots of whataboutism and deflections in this thread Hav Feb 2022 #20

+1 betsuni Feb 2022 #26

Lots of opinion "informed" by personal animosity and whathehell Feb 2022 #38

what kind of "based on other reasons..." Seems broad strokes to me. electric_blue68 Feb 2022 #206

Like what? Happy Hoosier Feb 2022 #217

Lol, it seems you've misunderstood -- We agree on Russia whathehell Feb 2022 #224

I must have... my apologies! NT Happy Hoosier Feb 2022 #233

No.pronlem, Hoosier whathehell Feb 2022 #237

You bet whathehell Feb 2022 #72

I'm honestly at a loss of words seeing some replies here Hav Feb 2022 #90

"align with Russian interests", sounds like a TailGunner Joe talking point. DickKessler Feb 2022 #117

Russia is a large nuclear-armed power. Tell me exactly how we deter them. DickKessler Feb 2022 #116

'Whataboutism' at its worst. Disgusting that a well known Russian propaganda technique is so emulatorloo Feb 2022 #135

Legit points, however maxsolomon Feb 2022 #21

I agree with you but malaise Feb 2022 #22

Never. History is always written by Sociopaths. maxsolomon Feb 2022 #31

Hmm...Do you think President Biden is a "sociopath" whathehell Feb 2022 #74

No, I don't. maxsolomon Feb 2022 #79

But as President of world power America, he's writing history.. whathehell Feb 2022 #83

OK you got me maxsolomon Feb 2022 #147

Okay whathehell Feb 2022 #152

This message was self-deleted by its author malaise Feb 2022 #23

Of course they shouldn't, but Ferrets are Cool Feb 2022 #140

Thanks, malaise. This needed to be said. TheRickles Feb 2022 #30

You may think so.. whathehell Feb 2022 #85

All the more reason.... TheRickles Feb 2022 #104

Sure whathehell Feb 2022 #105

And the fact that an opinion is in the majority makes it neither correct nor important. TheRickles Feb 2022 #154

No, but whathehell Feb 2022 #160

I agree. :-) TheRickles Feb 2022 #193

Russian apologia and whataboutism doesn't need to be said n/t kcr Feb 2022 #242

"toothless unstitutions"--typo or deliberate invention of new word? hvn_nbr_2 Feb 2022 #37

A genuine typo malaise Feb 2022 #40

I love "unstitution," an institution that isn't. CaptainTruth Feb 2022 #53

They'd better credit DUer hvn_nbr_2 malaise Feb 2022 #56

Unstitution Celerity Feb 2022 #59

Never heard it before malaise Feb 2022 #62

oh, neither had I, it is just a random thing I found on google just now Celerity Feb 2022 #63

True History Kid Berwyn Feb 2022 #41

Yep malaise Feb 2022 #45

I miss Bartcop. I_UndergroundPanther Feb 2022 #133

Bartcop was where I first posted as GoPsUx sky_masterson Feb 2022 #258

I used to write I_UndergroundPanther Feb 2022 #262

It's not "the Ukraine.". BlackSkimmer Feb 2022 #48

Because "ukraine" means borderlands, and the former Soviet republic was ... dawg Feb 2022 #196

So people here are incapable of learning new terminology? BlackSkimmer Feb 2022 #198

It's cute that it's such a big deal to you. dawg Feb 2022 #199

It's a big deal for people from that country. BlackSkimmer Feb 2022 #200

Got it 👍 Ty. electric_blue68 Feb 2022 #208

Nevervmind then. Let the old KGB authoritarian murderer of his own people go for it! Budi Feb 2022 #58

Dead on Budi dwayneb Feb 2022 #230

This message was self-deleted by its author BannonsLiver Feb 2022 #254

Looking at the Ukraine situation through a relative prism, as opposed to the absolutel prism... BobTheSubgenius Feb 2022 #60

You have a way with words malaise Feb 2022 #65

Thank you, sir! :) BobTheSubgenius Feb 2022 #75

Mam😀😀😀n/t malaise Feb 2022 #77

Biden didn't lead us into Afghanistan. But he did take us out of Bush's mess. Budi Feb 2022 #69

I don't disagree with you in the slightest. BobTheSubgenius Feb 2022 #73

The Media is 99% of why we're facing the disasterous forebodings today. Budi Feb 2022 #76

Truth. BobTheSubgenius Feb 2022 #86

Do you have any links documenting that assertion? whathehell Feb 2022 #163

the media is being chauvinistic toward Putin? stopdiggin Feb 2022 #108

Comparing Putin to Stalin trivializes Stalin's evil. DickKessler Feb 2022 #118

probably. but this string has basically been drawing analogy stopdiggin Feb 2022 #155

The hyperbole in this thread is off the charts whathehell Feb 2022 #78

The US has an over 100 year history of intervention either military or CIA, we have done yaesu Feb 2022 #68

The military industrial complex tiredtoo Feb 2022 #70

Do you seriously believe that the US is causing this? Hav Feb 2022 #88

No, they don't..It's just another excuse for the usual suspects whathehell Feb 2022 #91

no I don't think Biden wants war tiredtoo Feb 2022 #127

+1 uponit7771 Feb 2022 #181

I never let ANYONE off the hook for voting for what was obviously a war based on LIES Skittles Feb 2022 #80

I think it's encouraging for people to realize talking head is a career, Hortensis Feb 2022 #82

Where have you gotten this info from... electric_blue68 Feb 2022 #218

I'm not agreeing or condoning or accusing anyone, just saying I'm 100% fed up with wars with a RKP5637 Feb 2022 #84

Iraq was a) in 2003 and b) a colossal mistake. Tommy Carcetti Feb 2022 #87

I doubt Iraq was a mistake AZProgressive Feb 2022 #153

Is NATO, US, Ukraine a threat to invade Russia? Martin Eden Feb 2022 #92

In all the debates here, that is the best question yet, that no one addresses. Xolodno Feb 2022 #101

The aggressor is Vladimer Putin. No one threatened him. Budi Feb 2022 #111

NATO expansion can only be viewed from Moscow as a threat to Russia. DickKessler Feb 2022 #113

Objective thinking vs how it looks to paranoid people Martin Eden Feb 2022 #131

Are we or NATO planning to invade Russia via Ukraine? Xolodno Feb 2022 #145

"Of course not" Martin Eden Feb 2022 #157

Exactly. nt Tommy Carcetti Feb 2022 #161

"But they think so" Martin Eden Feb 2022 #164

Then we are going to agree to disagree. Xolodno Feb 2022 #201

I'm not saying the USA has not been a bad actor on the world scene. Martin Eden Feb 2022 #202

Fuck their state stoked and useless paranoia, without the US they WOULD be attacked. They uponit7771 Feb 2022 #182

Absolutely true dwayneb Feb 2022 #229

You will get no argument from me over what happened in Iraq and the condemnation that is cstanleytech Feb 2022 #93

I've stuck to the Olympics and avoided the news. Xolodno Feb 2022 #95

Some people wanted Russia to be part of NATO?!... electric_blue68 Feb 2022 #219

The US has been no angel for a long time. panader0 Feb 2022 #97

Oh, the Dulles brothers... electric_blue68 Feb 2022 #220

John Foster Dulles was Secretary of State under Eisenhower, and his brother Allen Dulles panader0 Feb 2022 #225

I believe that too malaise Feb 2022 #261

They cannot take on Putin alone. Budi Feb 2022 #100

Mahalo for these photos.. Cha Feb 2022 #170

If I had another heart, I would give you another one. +++++ nt Samrob Feb 2022 #106

Do you ;believe Ukraine or west is threatening to invade Russia? delisen Feb 2022 #109

Most of the mainstream media supported the illegal invasion of Iraq. They still have jobs. DickKessler Feb 2022 #115

They ran a 24/7 promo for a year +6 more for Putin's man, Donald Trump. Budi Feb 2022 #125

Yup, no accountability, ever. DickKessler Feb 2022 #126

This doesn't answer the question asked multiple times in this thread? Do you believe NATO is ... uponit7771 Feb 2022 #184

Agreed. DickKessler Feb 2022 #112

To make sure I understand, is it your position that the US should leave Ukraine to its own devices? TomSlick Feb 2022 #122

+++. It is all Biden's fault because Russia is threatening to invade Ukraine, and while we are at it JohnSJ Feb 2022 #136

I feel so bad for those people Cha Feb 2022 #139

Gulp ymetca Feb 2022 #129

Thank you so much for saying this Ferrets are Cool Feb 2022 #137

Based on this type of logic the US should not have gotten involved in WW2 JI7 Feb 2022 #156

The logic is that the Cheney-Bush regime Sewa Feb 2022 #187

What War Crimes ? JI7 Feb 2022 #188

This message was self-deleted by its author Sewa Feb 2022 #190

How do you know Cheney-Bush could've been convicted of war crimes? betsuni Feb 2022 #189

What's the genuine security concern for Russia in this ? JI7 Feb 2022 #158

why did you join DU in 2004? looking for like minded folks who detested bush* and the Iraq invasion? Shellback Squid Feb 2022 #159

For that matter, why should we be upset about Putin interfering in our elections? Crunchy Frog Feb 2022 #165

Lol..Good point whathehell Feb 2022 #166

President Biden apparently must forever wear the millstone around his neck for the sins of Bush. Tommy Carcetti Feb 2022 #167

Absurd it is.. whathehell Feb 2022 #173

Hey, I'm as self-hating as anyone. Crunchy Frog Feb 2022 #171

How nice for you! whathehell Feb 2022 #172

When it comes to matters foreign policy and imperialism malaise Feb 2022 #191

..and when it comes to discerning one from the other, whathehell Feb 2022 #194

lol, this puts this thread in words. America can be imperfect and correct and I don't see that being uponit7771 Feb 2022 #185

Also the fact that most of us can differentiate between Iraq and Ukraine. AngryOldDem Feb 2022 #192

It's not just Europe in peril dwayneb Feb 2022 #235

You mean the way the US does in our hemisphere and across the planet? malaise Feb 2022 #228

My point exactly. Crunchy Frog Feb 2022 #244

DURec leftstreet Feb 2022 #168

malaise, America can be imperfect and correct at the same time. Also, our fucked up can be better uponit7771 Feb 2022 #177

Thank you..That needed to be said. whathehell Feb 2022 #186

What right did England and France have to object to Germany's invasion of Poland? dawg Feb 2022 #195

Nailed it. This is whataboutism taken to pathological levels. Wingus Dingus Feb 2022 #223

I agree with you. David__77 Feb 2022 #197

Thank you! jcmaine72 Feb 2022 #213

kick Celerity Feb 2022 #214

It really bothers me to see stuff like this. Happy Hoosier Feb 2022 #215

Because my TV's been down since ?mid '18 (and I never had Cable)... electric_blue68 Feb 2022 #221

A very thoughtful response malaise Feb 2022 #231

That doesn't excuse Russia iemanja Feb 2022 #222

May all be true BUT dwayneb Feb 2022 #226

This reminds me of how I had to continually assure the members of an international online group betsuni Feb 2022 #246

I totally get it.. But .... msfiddlestix Feb 2022 #247

preach it, sister. KG Feb 2022 #248

This message was self-deleted by its author Tommy Carcetti Feb 2022 #250

Fallacious argument - comparing Iraq to Ukraine dwayneb Feb 2022 #251

And there are "no there are genuine security issues on both sides." Tommy Carcetti Feb 2022 #252

This message was self-deleted by its author BannonsLiver Feb 2022 #253

Regardless of US hypocrisy, Russia is still threatening to invade Ukraine and they are wrong Sapient Donkey Feb 2022 #255

We invaded on lies and lost moral highground. We let the tyrants of the world know that sky_masterson Feb 2022 #257